Which Automatic Tester is Right for Me? (Trident vs ReefBot)

[doodledreads]

Why do you think NO3/PO4 are more important? More curious because it used to be everyone wanted 0 and now we are starting to see just the opposite with awesome or thriving tanks with numbers on the positive side all over the map.

I think Alk/Cal/Mag are seen as more critical due to the fact they are required for a healthy reef over time as the tank matures. New tank they may not be as important so NO3 and PO4 take priority but over the year as aquarium, rocks, and coral mature and grow they lessen and ALk/Cal/Mag take over.

Just the way I see it anyway.

I also agree with PO4 and NO3 being more important than Ca and Mg testing for me as well. I use the AF 1+2+3+ and just need to dose based on my KH. When I ignore No3 and Po4 they tend to either drop to 0 or raise to level where my corals seem unhappy. Given my tank is just 20G, it doesnt take long for these to build up or drop down. Now that I measure them twice a week with Reefbot, I am able to respond quickly and keep them in a range that seem to work for me with either increasing/decreasing carbon dosing, changing Phosguard or dosing Lanthanum Chloride.

Bottomline, if I were to chose another autotester, I would only chose one which can test No3, Po4 and KH; optionally Ca, Mg, K

 

[Fish E]

While not a perfect fit these Xepta products will test with probes not reagents alk/calc/mag/No3/potassium still leaving the leaving the "holy grail" of testing out but imo taking the lions share of testing off the reefers shoulders. I do believe that probes are the best way forward for auto testing.

I think Xepta uses titration for Alk, not a probe.

 

[Joedubyk]

I can only speak to my experience. I have been using a trident for one month. I personally love it. I have a lot of SPS colonies. For 600 bucks, + 20 bucks a month you will always have the peace of mind that your alk will always be under a very watchful eye. That's huge. And I can easily with my Apex control my dosing pumps very easily when needed. We're talking I can have any variation in my tank fixed within seconds...

Every few days I will hand test to make sure my hanna and Trident are on the same page

If you think about it, people almost always end up having a crash...whether it be 1 year. every 5 years, or every 6 months in a lot of cases. These are expensive corals and a great hobby. Automating makes it so these crashes are FAR less likely . When something goes awry, it's very easily to fix.

Even if you have to test no3 and po4 every 3 days, at least you don't have to test the big 3... Once a week is probably fine as you're in tune with your tank......until it's not, and it may be days before you realize your alk swung and everything is either dead or looks like ****

 

[mikedb]

Why do you think NO3/PO4 are more important? More curious because it used to be everyone wanted 0 and now we are starting to see just the opposite with awesome or thriving tanks with numbers on the positive side all over the map.

I think Alk/Cal/Mag are seen as more critical due to the fact they are required for a healthy reef over time as the tank matures. New tank they may not be as important so NO3 and PO4 take priority but over the year as aquarium, rocks, and coral mature and grow they lessen and ALk/Cal/Mag take over.

Just the way I see it anyway.

Perhaps I will try to answer this with my 'novice' understanding and let the experts who have commented elsewhere on this thread correct any (likely) misunderstandings. I realize that there is a massive amount I don't understand here. Moreover, I know a lot of what I am saying is a (potentially dangerous) oversimplification. Criticism would be greatly appreciated to further my understanding.

My understanding is that there are two primary 'loops' or processes that must be managed to maintain reef aquaria: the encrusting process (KH/Ca/Mg) and the photosynthesis/nutrient process (Carbon,Nitrate, and Phosphate).

Encrusting process (KH/Ca/Mg)

I dose a 'balanced' 3-part Balling KH/Ca/Mg solution. My chemistry knowledge is somewhat weak, but my understanding is that these three parts (each consisting of one or a variety of salts) get consumed during the encrusting process at the same rate. As such, the best practice is to dose all three parts in equal proportion, to a target alkalinity.

As such, alkalinity is critically important to measure, while Ca and Mg need only be measured occasionally to ensure levels aren't getting off-balance- and in my (6 month, admittedly) experience, that has been the case. My Ca levels are ideal, and my Mg levels are slightly high but reasonable, despite little testing and no active management of either.

In sum, this process can be managed quite well by just measuring alkalinity, with monthly (or longer) checks of calcium and magnesium.

Photosynthesis Nutrient Process (Carbon,Nitrate, and Phosphate)

All photosynthetic life requires consumes C(in varying chemical compounds), NO3, and PO4. Moreover, may life forms seem to do so in a specific ratio, or range of ratios. One example is phytoplankton, which consumes those chemicals in a ratio known as the 'Redfield Ratio'. Various life forms consume those chemicals in different ratios.

The primary way these nutrients are introduced into the aquarium is via feeding, after digestion and processing through multiple processes and means.

Having plentiful amounts of all three nutrients is rare in an aquarium, as various life forms quickly multiply (bloom) to consume them, assuming conditions (light, toxins, etc) are otherwise favorable. Instead, most aquariums are 'limited' in the available amounts of one, two, or all of these nutrients, which are replenished through feedings.

Life forms that require C : N : P ratios with the least reliance on the 'limited' nutrient seem to thrive. Dinoflagellates seem to thrive in N and P limited systems. (Hair) algaes seem to thrive in C limited systems (where N and P are plentiful). This latter phenomenon is why carbon dosing is so commonplace.

This is where my knowledge, and perhaps the collective knowledge of hobbyists, seems to get fuzzy. But what we do know is that keeping low-but-measurable levels of N and P seems to be correlated with success. High N and P levels are indicative of a carbon limitation, and leave the system susceptible to excessive algae growth. Zero N and P levels leave the system susceptible to dinoflagellates, and negative impacts to corals due to nutrient limitation. While there are examples of successful aquariums that fall outside of these guidelines, they nonetheless are a good target for most aquarists.

The challenge is that unlike the encrusting process, the inputs to the system (feeding) can't be closely controlled, nor can the outputs (photosynthetic growth). Inconsistent feeding or changes a systems' fauna (such as chaeto accumulation or nuisance algae) can throw these levels into a range where many aquarists have noted negative side effects. It seems necessary to constantly monitor these parameters and make necessary adjustments to nutrient imports (feeding levels, and dosing if need be)) and exports (chaeto amount, skimmer operation) on a regular basis.

Conclusion

The above is why it seems that alkalinity (for monitoring the encrusting process), and NO3/PO4 (for monitoring the photosynthesis process) seem to be the 'big three' to me that need monitoring on a regular basis.

Criticism appreciated!

 

[User1]

Perhaps I will try to answer this with my 'novice' understanding and let the experts who have commented elsewhere on this thread correct any (likely) misunderstandings. I realize that there is a massive amount I don't understand here. Moreover, I know a lot of what I am saying is a (potentially dangerous) oversimplification. Criticism would be greatly appreciated to further my understanding.

My understanding is that there are two primary 'loops' or processes that must be managed to maintain reef aquaria: the encrusting process (KH/Ca/Mg) and the photosynthesis/nutrient process (Carbon,Nitrate, and Phosphate).

Encrusting process (KH/Ca/Mg)

I dose a 'balanced' 3-part Balling KH/Ca/Mg solution. My chemistry knowledge is somewhat weak, but my understanding is that these three parts (each consisting of one or a variety of salts) get consumed during the encrusting process at the same rate. As such, the best practice is to dose all three parts in equal proportion, to a target alkalinity.

As such, alkalinity is critically important to measure, while Ca and Mg need only be measured occasionally to ensure levels aren't getting off-balance- and in my (6 month, admittedly) experience, that has been the case. My Ca levels are ideal, and my Mg levels are slightly high but reasonable, despite little testing and no active management of either.

In sum, this process can be managed quite well by just measuring alkalinity, with monthly (or longer) checks of calcium and magnesium.

Photosynthesis Nutrient Process (Carbon,Nitrate, and Phosphate)

All photosynthetic life requires consumes C(in varying chemical compounds), NO3, and PO4. Moreover, may life forms seem to do so in a specific ratio, or range of ratios. One example is phytoplankton, which consumes those chemicals in a ratio known as the 'Redfield Ratio'. Various life forms consume those chemicals in different ratios.

The primary way these nutrients are introduced into the aquarium is via feeding, after digestion and processing through multiple processes and means.

Having plentiful amounts of all three nutrients is rare in an aquarium, as various life forms quickly multiply (bloom) to consume them, assuming conditions (light, toxins, etc) are otherwise favorable. Instead, most aquariums are 'limited' in the available amounts of one, two, or all of these nutrients, which are replenished through feedings.

Life forms that require C : N : P ratios with the least reliance on the 'limited' nutrient seem to thrive. Dinoflagellates seem to thrive in N and P limited systems. (Hair) algaes seem to thrive in C limited systems (where N and P are plentiful). This latter phenomenon is why carbon dosing is so commonplace.

This is where my knowledge, and perhaps the collective knowledge of hobbyists, seems to get fuzzy. But what we do know is that keeping low-but-measurable levels of N and P seems to be correlated with success. High N and P levels are indicative of a carbon limitation, and leave the system susceptible to excessive algae growth. Zero N and P levels leave the system susceptible to dinoflagellates, and negative impacts to corals due to nutrient limitation. While there are examples of successful aquariums that fall outside of these guidelines, they nonetheless are a good target for most aquarists.

The challenge is that unlike the encrusting process, the inputs to the system (feeding) can't be closely controlled, nor can the outputs (photosynthetic growth). Inconsistent feeding or changes a systems' fauna (such as chaeto accumulation or nuisance algae) can throw these levels into a range where many aquarists have noted negative side effects. It seems necessary to constantly monitor these parameters and make necessary adjustments to nutrient imports (feeding levels, and dosing if need be)) and exports (chaeto amount, skimmer operation) on a regular basis.

Conclusion

The above is why it seems that alkalinity (for monitoring the encrusting process), and NO3/PO4 (for monitoring the photosynthesis process) seem to be the 'big three' to me that need monitoring on a regular basis.

Criticism appreciated!

No criticism. I was just wondering and you provided a answer. Thanks for taking the time and thought out reason.

 

[mikedb]

My Reefbot Shipped today! I ordered on August 30 in the evening (Lebanon time), so this puts the lead time at 5 business days. Not bad! Unfortunately DHL is currently showing a 6-day transit time (ETA Sept 17)- hopefully that improves once the shipment clears customs.

It can't arrive soon enough- my dinoflagellate nuisance has become a full-blown problem. I suspect that once-daily testing and conservative NO3 and PO4 dosing is to blame. Previously I was dosing to target the middle of generally acceptable target ranges (3ppm NO3, 0.06ppm PO4), but found those levels often dropping to near-zero levels by the time the next test was performed.

Most corals are unaffected, but my one ultra plate coral has been constantly retracted for the past several days. I am running carbon and keeping the sand around it stirred to minimize effects, but am growing more and more worried the longer it stays retracted.

As of today I am testing twice daily and dosing to target the high range of generally-accepted ranges (and ensuring levels do not decrease below the low end of those ranges prior to the next test)- 5ppm NO3 and 0.1 PPM PO4. I will report back with results.

 

[joe berkman]

Ive been going back and forth between these two pieces of equipment on a weekly basses. So thank you for this thr

 

[joe berkman]

Thread (oops) for me the hang up is. The apex seems more refined and a safer bet. Especially for. Someone as teck illiterate as myself. And the reefbot can do more but is a less proven company thus hgher risk being a ceribra owner. Well nuf said. The one thing i havent heard mentioned is the comming relese of seneyes alk monitor wich seems like it would complementthe reefbot nicely.

 

[mikedb]

Ive been going back and forth between these two pieces of equipment on a weekly basses. So thank you for this thread for me the hang up is. The apex seems more refined and a safer bet. Especially for. Someone as teck illiterate as myself. And the reefbot can do more but is a less proven company thus hgher risk being a ceribra owner. Well nuf said. The one thing i havent heard mentioned is the comming relese of seneyes alk monitor wich seems like it would complementthe reefbot nicely.

Hi Joe,

Here are my thoughts, based upon about 3 months of experience with the ReefBot (and over 500 tests). I don't own a Trident, but based on the lack of feedback on these forums, I can only assume that they are working very well (people seem very quick to criticize Neptune, so I'm guessing no news is good news).

I think it is safe to say that the Trident is more refined. And if all you need to measure is Alk, Ca, and Mg, I would wholeheartedly recommend it over the Reefbot.

But in my aquarium, the 'big three' parameters are Alk, Phosphate, and Nitrate. I dose substantial amounts of all three, and have found that repetitive testing is key to ensure that parameters stay stable and to identify if anything is wrong with my dosing systems. The Reefbot is the only option for automatic measurement of PO4 and NO3, so my choice was clear. I also measure Ca with the reefbot, just because it is easy and there are spaces for the required vials. I rely on monthly ICP testing for Magnesium monitoring. Since I dose a balanced 3-part (soon to be 1-part), Ca and Mg are a 'nice to have', not a 'need to have'.

The ReefBot does earn the disclaimer that is clearly posted on its website: "for Early Adopters". The manufacturer is working constantly to refine it, but it remains imperfect. Recently, while away from the unit for a week, I encountered an issue where the program running the ReefBot became corrupted (I saw several other users on facebook with the same issue around this time), requiring the unit to be opened, the memory card removed, a computer with an SD card reader to reprogram it, and then a temporary connection to ethernet to reconnect the unit. Their servers were recently updated to make the app (finally) usable (and now it is great!), but that seemed to break push alerts, so I have had to revert to email alerts. Every once and awhile I get an occasionally (obviously) incorrect test result. It is a bit of a task to organize refills of 8 reagents in four test kits. And results are limited by the resolution of the test kits- for example, Red Sea Alk results are only reported in increments of 0.3 dKH, and the Reefbot doesn't make any attempt to interpolate.

But despite all that, I believe the Reefbot is a fantastic solution, if you know what you are getting into. Again, it is the only offering that can measure what it does. I am very happy with mine, even in consideration of the above. To be clear, if Neptune had released a product in this state, there would probably be some vocal complainers. But Reef Kinetics is reasonably up-front about the limitations of the product at this point, and continues to improve it- I can't really argue with that.

 

[User1]

Hi Joe,

Here are my thoughts, based upon about 3 months of experience with the ReefBot (and over 500 tests). I don't own a Trident, but based on the lack of feedback on these forums, I can only assume that they are working very well (people seem very quick to criticize Neptune, so I'm guessing no news is good news).

I think it is safe to say that the Trident is more refined. And if all you need to measure is Alk, Ca, and Mg, I would recommend it.

But in my aquarium, the 'big three' parameters are Alk, Phosphate, and Nitrate. I dose substantial amounts of all three, and have found that repetitive testing is key to ensure that parameters stay stable and to identify if anything is wrong with my dosing systems. The Reefbot is the only option for automatic measurement of PO4 and NO3, so my choice was clear. I also measure Ca with the reefbot, just because it is easy and there are spaces for the required vials. I rely on monthly ICP testing for Magnesium monitoring.

The ReefBot does earn the disclaimer that is clearly posted on its website: "for Early Adopters". The manufacturer is working constantly to refine it, but it remains imperfect. Recently, while away from the unit for a week, I encountered an issue where the program running the ReefBot became corrupted (I saw several other users on facebook with the same issue around this time), requiring the unit to be opened, the memory card removed, a computer with an SD card reader to reprogram it, and then a temporary connection to ethernet to reconnect the unit. Their servers were recently updated to make the app (finally) usable (and now it is great!), but that seemed to break push alerts, so I have had to revert to email alerts. Every once and awhile I get an occasionally (obviously) incorrect test result. It is a bit of a task to organize refills of 8 reagents in four test kits. And results are limited by the resolution of the test kits- for example, Red Sea Alk results are only reported in increments of 0.3 dKH, and the Reefbot doesn't make any attempt to interpolate.

But despite all that, I believe the Reefbot is a fantastic solution, if you know what you are getting into. Again, it is the only offering that can measure what it does. I am very happy with mine, even in consideration of the above. To be clear, if Neptune had released a product in this state, there would probably be some vocal complainers. But Reef Kinetics is reasonably up-front about the limitations of the product at this point, and continues to improve it- I can't really argue with that.

Good reply. I have a trident, not the reefbot. However, I thought it was cool that in one of the Tropic Marin videos and/or blogs and how they are going or try to, package the reagents separately for the reefbot use. To try and save the users money. I thought that was cool. I guess it is a popular kit.

Unrelated but seems like even some vendors see it, hear the feedback, and will try to support it. I thought it was cool.

 

[Jeff Jarry reef]

Great discussion my Trident has been right on with the big three. And I can very well tell a difference in stability and my SPS are doing great.

 

[PigFarmer]

I ran a reefbot for about 6 weeks before i gave up on it and working with their customer support which I still feel their support was great but for me the reefbot was more hands on tinkering and time consuming then manual testing itself... I became very frusterated with my 900$ premature testing device.. I bought a trident with my refund and been running it for a few months now and the only complaint I have is it doesnt test phosphate or nitrate lol. other than that's its solid!

 

[mikedb]

Good reply. I have a trident, not the reefbot. However, I thought it was cool that in one of the Tropic Marin videos and/or blogs and how they are going or try to, package the reagents separately for the reefbot use. To try and save the users money. I thought that was cool. I guess it is a popular kit.

Unrelated but seems like even some vendors see it, hear the feedback, and will try to support it. I thought it was cool.

When I last spoke to Lou at Tropic Marin, he mentioned that the "ReefBot guys" were buying up their Nitrate test kits nearly as fast as they could make them. I wouldn't be surprised if ReefBot owners constituted the majority (or vast majority) of the sales for that test kit. The Tropic Marin is the only liquid-only test kit for Nitrates, and therefore the only one compatible with the ReefBot. It is great to hear that they are reacting, though- I hate having to throw away so much every time I open a new test kit. I have already used four...

For what it's worth, my unit is S/N ~475, purchased in late August. I'm not sure what S/N they started with, but I suspect there are quite a few of these units out there.

 

[User1]

When I last spoke to Lou at Tropic Marin, he mentioned that the "ReefBot guys" were buying up their Nitrate test kits nearly as fast as they could make them. I wouldn't be surprised if ReefBot owners constituted the majority (or vast majority) of the sales for that test kit. The Tropic Marin is the only liquid-only test kit for Nitrates, and therefore the only one compatible with the ReefBot. It is great to hear that they are reacting, though- I hate having to throw away so much every time I open a new test kit. I have already used four...

For what it's worth, my unit is S/N ~475, purchased in late August. I'm not sure what S/N they started with, but I suspect there are quite a few of these units out there.

Lou - that was his name. I'll have to try and find the video and link it here. I've seen a couple video presentations he has done and really liked them. This blog thing was also cool. So much that I'm considering changing salt mix and giving Tropic Marin a go. Mostly because he seems like a really nice person and represents the company well.

 

[mikedb]

Lou - that was his name. I'll have to try and find the video and link it here. I've seen a couple video presentations he has done and really liked them. This blog thing was also cool. So much that I'm considering changing salt mix and giving Tropic Marin a go. Mostly because he seems like a really nice person and represents the company well.

Lou is fantastic, and the main reason why I have gone over to almost 100% Tropic Marin products.

When I first got my Reefbot, my Tropic Marin automated and manual NO3 tests weren't agreeing with with my Nyos, Red Sea, or API test kits. He picked up the phone on the first ring and very respectfully ensured I wasn't doing anything wrong, and actually had Germany test the lot of test kits that I had purchased from. Spoiler: All three competing brands were measuring incorrectly, as confirmed using a test solution I mixed myself. The TM test kit was the only one measuring accurately.

Most recently, Lou spent over 40 minutes on the phone with me discussing additives. Although I wasn't originally considering it, he inspired me to switch over to a DIY mix of their All-For-Reef product.

He also regularly posts in these forums, with very constructive info. He is a great asset to the hobby, and has made me a loyal user of TM products. It's just too bad they don't have slightly wider distribution here in North America.

 

[User1]

Lou is fantastic, and the main reason why I have gone over to almost 100% Tropic Marin products.

When I first got my Reefbot, my Tropic Marin automated and manual NO3 tests weren't agreeing with with my Nyos, Red Sea, or API test kits. He picked up the phone on the first ring and very respectfully ensured I wasn't doing anything wrong, and actually had Germany test the lot of test kits that I had purchased from. Spoiler: All three competing brands were measuring incorrectly, as confirmed using a test solution I mixed myself. The TM test kit was the only one measuring accurately.

Most recently, Lou spent over 40 minutes on the phone with me discussing additives. Although I wasn't originally considering it, he inspired me to switch over to a DIY mix of their All-For-Reef product.

He also regularly posts in these forums, with very constructive info. He is a great asset to the hobby, and has made me a loyal user of TM products. It's just too bad they don't have slightly wider distribution here in North America.

Thanks. I'm starting to get that vibe as well. I've enjoyed what I read and watched so thank you for posting this. Also with regards to the all for reef product. I was reading the thread on this I think that BRS did discussing the ingredients. I was considering this for my nano I just sent up and then seeing if it is cost effective for a maturing 210 (by maturing I mean it has only been up 18 or so months).

Thanks again. Sorry - I didn't mean to take away from the thread.

 

[mikedb]

Sorry for the continued derail, but you might find this cost analysis useful...

Switching from Balling to Carbo-Calcium/ Calcium Formate- Am I crazy?

My 10-month old 140 gallon mixed reef is really hitting its stride, with my SPS and LPS frags all growing well. To get me through the first few months, I have been dosing Aquaforest pre-mixed 3-part (equal amounts of each part), which is essentially the balling method with supplemental trade...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[User1]

Sorry for the continued derail, but you might find this cost analysis useful...

Switching from Balling to Carbo-Calcium/ Calcium Formate- Am I crazy?

My 10-month old 140 gallon mixed reef is really hitting its stride, with my SPS and LPS frags all growing well. To get me through the first few months, I have been dosing Aquaforest pre-mixed 3-part (equal amounts of each part), which is essentially the balling method with supplemental trade...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks!

 

[joe berkman]

Wow what a grea thread lou’s Vidios and you guys have pretty much convinced me to go reefbot. I’m thinking of buying through saltwater aquarium.com they offer $45 Bach free shipping and free stuff. Also I’ve been using tropic Marin pro salt for a while now and love it Unlike the othe high end salts I’ve used there’s no brown goo. Big plus

 

[bar|none]

....
But in my aquarium, the 'big three' parameters are Alk, Phosphate, and Nitrate. I dose substantial amounts of all three, and have found that repetitive testing is key to ensure that parameters stay stable and to identify if anything is wrong with my dosing systems.....

yes! Thanks for this. I can’t say you influenced my decision to get a reefbot cause mine arrived this am and reading this now for the first time. I will have an informed opinion soon enough.