White Blotches on achilles tang

[kevsqn]

I notice this white blotch few days ago.
tang has been on coppersafe for about 11 days now. it had ich before and then disappeared after a few days with coppersafe.
then now this surfaced.
i just recheked awhile ago and coppersafe is on 2.0ppm.
It doesnt look like ich to me. I know ich kinda protrudes out of the skin.
but this one is on the skin. its more like small white blotches.
hes eating very heavy. doesnt breath heavy. doesnt swim against the powerhead.
not flashing or anything.

What do you guys think this is? I think this could be flukes?
or could this be stress spots? i know PBT stress spots are vertical lines across his body but not sure with achilles.
Should i just dosed prazipro prophylactically? I was planning to dose prazipro after the coppersafe treatment anyway.
the picture is kinda blur sorry for that

 

[Dilan Patel]

early stage of velvet?

 

[Maritimer]

Has he been treated with Praziquantel or been through a freshwater dip? Flukes could be possible - I'll admit that I'm having trouble distinguishing the spots in your photos as more than pale blurs, but flukes can look like that when you see 'em at all.

~Bruce

 

[kevsqn]

early stage of velvet?

Tank is at 2.0ppm coppersafe. so i really doubt its velvet.

 

[kevsqn]

Has he been treated with Praziquantel or been through a freshwater dip? Flukes could be possible - I'll admit that I'm having trouble distinguishing the spots in your photos as more than pale blurs, but flukes can look like that when you see 'em at all.

~Bruce

Nope. he hasnt. so should i just dose prazipro? and it'll just confirm its flukes if its gone in a day or two?

 

[Maritimer]

PraziPro can be used with copper ... but with some caution, as it can cause a bacterial bloom that drains oxygen from the water. Make sure you've got plenty of flow and oxygen in the water. (Always a good idea with an Achilles tang, anyway!)

A freshwater dip might be your best start - most fish tolerate it well, it removes a decent number of flukes (though not all) quickly. Prazi makes the flukes spasm, which can cause some discomfort to the fish. If you feel confident doing it with the tang (and I would understand not feeling comfortable doing it first time with an achilles!), there's a great instructional video by Melypr1985 here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

~Bruce

 

[melypr1985]

I wish I could see the spots better in the pictures. I think running prazipro as part of a QT on any new fish is a good plan. Doing the freshwater dip first, though is a good plan. Check for the flukes first.

 

[aykwm]

The pictures are not that clear, it might be stress marks from medications, or as previously suggested flukes. +1 for FW dip, it will provide relief if parasites exist and you can check for flukes.
Best of luck

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree I cannot discern anything from the photos -- but Achilles come in with flukes a lot it seems. I would work praziquantel in to your protocol regardless.

Keep us posted!

 

[kevsqn]

update
The white blotches are still there. but still behaving like normal.
no scratching. no swimming against powerhead. no ich-like dots. no white stuff on the eyes.
Coppersafe still at ~2 maybe abit higher.
Also just redosed prazipro after 1 week.
Also i video'd him. i dont know if the tang is fighting his reflection on the glass which causes the white blotches? Is he fighting his reflection?
I dont see the tang scratch himself on the PVC.
Hope these pictures are clearer.
Video of the tang fighting his reflection :

 

[Maritimer]

Not sure he's fighting his reflection - I think it's more likely that he can see the room outside the tank, and would like to swim in all that open space. We see a reflection in the side glass due to the angle, but the fish, looking straight-on, can see through the glass just fine.

~Bruce

 

[4FordFamily]

Are the spots becoming more numerous or staying put?

 

[kevsqn]

Are the spots becoming more numerous or staying put?

on one side, its kinda been the same for the past week.
on the other side, maybe 2-3 spots got whiter? or i just didnt notice them before.
what do you think are they?

 

[4FordFamily]

on one side, its kinda been the same for the past week.
on the other side, maybe 2-3 spots got whiter? or i just didnt notice them before.
what do you think are they?

What I am trying to discern is if they are growing in number -- if some have been there for a week I wonder if it could be ich because it falls off in less than a week -- although, on a black fish like an achiles tang, the insertion point may remain and become infected. If they're getting "more white" I wonder if you're actually dealing with an infection. I'd like to hear some other opinions before suggesting anything. If you don't have any on hand, I'd source more antibiotics (kanaplex, metroplex, and furan 2)

 

[kevsqn]

What I am trying to discern is if they are growing in number -- if some have been there for a week I wonder if it could be ich because it falls off in less than a week -- although, on a black fish like an achiles tang, the insertion point may remain and become infected. If they're getting "more white" I wonder if you're actually dealing with an infection. I'd like to hear some other opinions before suggesting anything. If you don't have any on hand, I'd source more antibiotics (kanaplex, metroplex, and furan 2)

is possible that ich can still exist after 18 days with coppersafe

 

[4FordFamily]

is possible that ich can still exist after 18 days with coppersafe

Yes, in short. You need full 30 days and fully therapeutic levels.

Zero margin for error in 18 day treatment protocol. Unfortunately there are lots of opportunities for error.

 

[kevsqn]

Yes, in short. You need full 30 days and fully therapeutic levels.

Zero margin for error in 18 day treatment protocol. Unfortunately there are lots of opportunities for error.

im currently at 18/30 days of copper. another tank is 15 feet away and im pretty sure i havent cross-contaminate anything.
i test the copper every other day. im also sure its above 2ppm. Im really at loss now.

can ich look like that? I know ich is like a grain of salt that is put on the skin.
the white spot doesnt look like that. I dont know what to do

 

[ngoodermuth]

How long until you pull the copper? My instinct is to get him into a clean QT without copper or meds and see what happens...

It could be something bacterial, but I would focus on feeding and maybe adding vitamins to his food to see if he can kick it himself before worrying with antibiotics.

 

[kevsqn]

How long until you pull the copper? My instinct is to get him into a clean QT without copper or meds and see what happens...

It could be something bacterial, but I would focus on feeding and maybe adding vitamins to his food to see if he can kick it himself before worrying with antibiotics.

12 more days until i pull him out. should i wait it out? then transfer him to another qt and see what happens?

 

[ngoodermuth]

12 more days until i pull him out. should i wait it out? then transfer him to another qt and see what happens?

If he's still eating, swimming, and breathing normally then I'd keep going with copper for the remaining time then transfer him to a clean QT for observation.

If the blotches start to get worse, or he is lethargic, breathing heavily, or not eating... I would transfer immediately (with perhaps an fw dip/acriflavine bath en route) and re-evaluate. This is assuming he has been in copper at therapeutic levels for at least 14 days.

This is a good read re: bacterial infections and copper, although at this point I don't think the Achilles is in need of "emergency" protocols. But, as an FYI

The Bacterial Infection Predicament

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/The-Bacterial-Infection-Predicament.310311/