White Tips on SPS Frags Every Morning for Past 15 Days
- Thread starter Dr. Jim
- Start date
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OP
OP
Ha ha! That's funny! Actually, I think my water is coming from the devil with all my problems!
I have the RO and prefilters too. lol
The little black box (solenoid) to the left of the pump is part of a Spectrapure Liquid Level Control Assembly. In case anyone is not familiar with this, it is one of the best RO/DI discoveries I've ever made! You can see part of an air tube coming out of the box that runs along the ceiling (out of view) and down into the RO/DI tank (next photo). It is attached to a cylinder (seen in corner of tank). When the tank fills, it creates air pressure in the cylinder and tube which shuts off the solenoid (and the RO/DI pump). When the water level drops, the air pressure drops and it is turned back on. The float valve is a back-up in case the unit fails. (RO/DI water enters the tank via the float valve assembly). The white bulk head, at the highest level, is another layer of redundancy. If both fail, water goes thru bulkhead to drain tube.
I've been using these Level Controls for over 15 years without ever having a problem:
Single Tank Liquid Level Controller - 115VAC | SpectraPure
That’s impressive.Ha ha! That's funny! Actually, I think my water is coming from the devil with all my problems!
I have the RO and prefilters too. lol
The little black box (solenoid) to the left of the pump is part of a Spectrapure Liquid Level Control Assembly. In case anyone is not familiar with this, it is one of the best RO/DI discoveries I've ever made! You can see part of an air tube coming out of the box that runs along the ceiling (out of view) and down into the RO/DI tank (next photo). It is attached to a cylinder (seen in corner of tank). When the tank fills, it creates air pressure in the cylinder and tube which shuts off the solenoid (and the RO/DI pump). When the water level drops, the air pressure drops and it is turned back on. The float valve is a back-up in case the unit fails. (RO/DI water enters the tank via the float valve assembly). The white bulk head, at the highest level, is another layer of redundancy. If both fail, water goes thru bulkhead to drain tube.
I've been using these Level Controls for over 15 years without ever having a problem:
Single Tank Liquid Level Controller - 115VAC | SpectraPure
OP
OP
In case anybody is still with me, I have two things to mention......
1) Ever since this sudden onset of "white tips" about 2 weeks ago, one thing that I have noted and have been curious about is the fact that it is only in the morning when the lights come on that I notice "white tips" (and this is every morning). Never is there any additional death by the time the lights go out. I can't help but feel that this should be some kind of a "clue" making the day-night cycle connected to the problem in some way. When one thinks of "day-night" the first thing that comes to mind of course is light. I've always been a "halide guy" running them for 8-12 hours (usually closer to 8-10 on my former tanks with great success). With my present system with a halide/T5 combo, I started with 5 hrs halide (for the first 6 months) and 11 hours of (4) T5's, ramping up and down in 2 stages. For the past 5 months I reduced the halides to 4 hours.
With "white tips" one may consider too much light (among other factors, like Alk level and Alk-to-NO3 and PO4 relationship) but I doubt 4-5 hrs of a 250W halide is too much, especially since the frags were doing better when the tank was "young" and at the higher level. (PAR levels are good). Today, I'm increasing the halide back to 5 hrs and eliminating two T5's while the halide is on. I really don't think this is going to solve the problem....but I'm more interested in any ideas about the observation of corals dying only during the night (which is happening every day). (pH at night is 8.15-8.2 and during day 8.3-8.35). Maybe whatever is causing this will never be determined or helpful in solving the problem, but it sure is interesting and worth mentioning to see if anyone has any ideas.
2) Another significant observation is how this problem has come on so suddenly during month #11 when the tank is more mature and everything has been the more stable than ever before. Relatively few changes and "experiments" have been made recently compared to early on when I was forced to do drastic measures due to what I believe was a tin problem. But recently, I may have been mistakenly led to believe that the tin was under control, but recent tests are showing otherwise. From my 40+ ICP "soak-tests", I found that many plastic items were leaching tin, especially tubing. Recently, I disregarded my own "rule" of "soak-testing" anything new added to the tank and I added a new Tunze wavemaker about 6 weeks ago, 4 weeks before this problem started. (Of course the wavemaker has a huge amount plastic and it is going into a relatively small tank). I removed it today and performed a 15% WC and will "soak-test" the Tunze.
i'm sure some will say I'm "chasing" things and need to "relax" but one thing I am sure of is that if I do nothing and don't find the problem everything will surely die at the rate they are going. And, if tin is the problem, this is something I can solve if I track it down.
Thanks for any ideas about # 1 above.
1) Ever since this sudden onset of "white tips" about 2 weeks ago, one thing that I have noted and have been curious about is the fact that it is only in the morning when the lights come on that I notice "white tips" (and this is every morning). Never is there any additional death by the time the lights go out. I can't help but feel that this should be some kind of a "clue" making the day-night cycle connected to the problem in some way. When one thinks of "day-night" the first thing that comes to mind of course is light. I've always been a "halide guy" running them for 8-12 hours (usually closer to 8-10 on my former tanks with great success). With my present system with a halide/T5 combo, I started with 5 hrs halide (for the first 6 months) and 11 hours of (4) T5's, ramping up and down in 2 stages. For the past 5 months I reduced the halides to 4 hours.
With "white tips" one may consider too much light (among other factors, like Alk level and Alk-to-NO3 and PO4 relationship) but I doubt 4-5 hrs of a 250W halide is too much, especially since the frags were doing better when the tank was "young" and at the higher level. (PAR levels are good). Today, I'm increasing the halide back to 5 hrs and eliminating two T5's while the halide is on. I really don't think this is going to solve the problem....but I'm more interested in any ideas about the observation of corals dying only during the night (which is happening every day). (pH at night is 8.15-8.2 and during day 8.3-8.35). Maybe whatever is causing this will never be determined or helpful in solving the problem, but it sure is interesting and worth mentioning to see if anyone has any ideas.
2) Another significant observation is how this problem has come on so suddenly during month #11 when the tank is more mature and everything has been the more stable than ever before. Relatively few changes and "experiments" have been made recently compared to early on when I was forced to do drastic measures due to what I believe was a tin problem. But recently, I may have been mistakenly led to believe that the tin was under control, but recent tests are showing otherwise. From my 40+ ICP "soak-tests", I found that many plastic items were leaching tin, especially tubing. Recently, I disregarded my own "rule" of "soak-testing" anything new added to the tank and I added a new Tunze wavemaker about 6 weeks ago, 4 weeks before this problem started. (Of course the wavemaker has a huge amount plastic and it is going into a relatively small tank). I removed it today and performed a 15% WC and will "soak-test" the Tunze.
i'm sure some will say I'm "chasing" things and need to "relax" but one thing I am sure of is that if I do nothing and don't find the problem everything will surely die at the rate they are going. And, if tin is the problem, this is something I can solve if I track it down.
Thanks for any ideas about # 1 above.
thewire
Active Member
I'm surprised no one stating that. Those Bubble algae are everywhere!
OP
OP
I've mentioned the bubble algae several times. Are you saying you think the bubble algae are the cause of the corals dying? That possibility never crossed my mind but I have asked if there is some new knowledge about bubble algae that I don't know about, showing them to be toxic. As far as I know, it is not.
If they aren't harmful to the SPS, then I don't care about removing them right now. I can easily do that by brushing the one or two rocks that have them when I dismantle the tank when I move (probably in 6 mo).
This thread is about "What is causing the "White Tip" death of my SPS"..... (not aesthetics). But thanks for trying to help, if that's what you were trying to do.
josvanmeer
Well-Known Member
Im gonna have to agree with the fact that your problems are most likely coming from simply overstocking your tank and throwing every additive in there known to mankind. I mean three tangs in a tiny cube, holy moly. I thought I had seen bad stocking but this tops it.
I understand life got in the way of your plans but at this moment I would simply house half the fish at least in another 40 breeder or something to reduce the bioload in this tank. Theres no way a tank that small can keep up with that. I think when you do that, youre gonna have a way easier time managing your parameters. Stop adding every additive known to mankind in there. You might wanna dose vibrant to clean all that mess up. For a nearly year old tank I dont think I have seen dirtier tbh. You really need to go back to basics and manage from there. The fact you had to write an essay on your problems shows you are overcomplicating things. Keeping a tank really isnt supposed to be that stressful, you made it that way. Step back and take a breather, reduce bioload and clean up all that algae with vibrant or however else you seem fit.
I understand life got in the way of your plans but at this moment I would simply house half the fish at least in another 40 breeder or something to reduce the bioload in this tank. Theres no way a tank that small can keep up with that. I think when you do that, youre gonna have a way easier time managing your parameters. Stop adding every additive known to mankind in there. You might wanna dose vibrant to clean all that mess up. For a nearly year old tank I dont think I have seen dirtier tbh. You really need to go back to basics and manage from there. The fact you had to write an essay on your problems shows you are overcomplicating things. Keeping a tank really isnt supposed to be that stressful, you made it that way. Step back and take a breather, reduce bioload and clean up all that algae with vibrant or however else you seem fit.
thewire
Active Member
No. But the underlying issue you have that might be the cause of it. Your bio load is out the world in such a small tank. Then you are chasing the numbers and trying to fix the issue with chemical.
Reduced your load, and start cleaning up your tank first. The other issues will slowly resolved itself. If not, you will have a burnout and probably quit this hobby
OP
OP
If I have too many fish and too much of a bioload, then why do I need to dose phosphates to keep it from bottoming out? (And nitrates are at 15 today). I am actually feeding 4 times a day now (up from 3J)....and if I could fit more fish I would. The first photo of the glass on page 1 of this thread was a little misleading; (see the more recent ones). There was some algae on the glass and a dusting on the sand, but it is not close to being as dirty as you suggest. And, I've been doing tons of water changes due to the tin, especially during the first 8 months, which has made me worry that I'm making the tank "too clean!"
You made me just take a new photo!
Do you really think this tank is dirty? (I scraped glass yesterday; those are snail eggs all over the walls which I'm leaving alone; all photos were with just camera phone so not the greatest, sorry):And, I don't want to get into the morality of keeping fish. I think you understood that I did mention that these fish (all purchased when tiny) were meant to be in this tank temporarily, but for those that still think this is horrible, I would like to ask you: "Are you saying it is not OK for me to take a tang out of the ocean and put it in a 35 gal tank but it is OK for you to take a tang out of the ocean and put it in a 100 gal or even 500 gal tank?" I'd say we are equally selfish. I've been an exotic animal veterinarian all my live (and an Avian Specialist). I've always said "if I could push a button and have all exotics go back to the wild, I would (if there is an appropriate 'wild' for them to go to)." I realize I have no control to do that but I've devoted my career to helping those poor creatures that have to put up with us humans. At least when I buy a fish I know I am giving it a chance to live a long life compared to most.....(which I may see as a slight justification, but still doesn't make me "not selfish.")
"Throwing every additive in there known to mankind" is certainly an exaggeration and not true. I mentioned a lot of brands but that doesn't mean I'm overdosing. And, I still like my philosophy of mixing or alternating brands so in case if one is "not perfect" the next may make up for it. Anyway, I've been fine-tuning a system for many years that you may perceive to be unnecessary or even harmful, but I have had great success with my methods over the past 25 years, and I doubt it has anything to do with the SPS dying. (1/8 of recommended dosages should not cause this problem especially when my "dosing system" is producing very good levels on ICP tests).
RE: Vibrant. Isn't that bacteria, vinegar and amino's? If so, I've essentially been doing that with other products (but not at the moment), and again, I don't think my tank is so "filthy" to warrant that. But thanks for your suggestions and comments (seriously).
OP
OP
Ha, ha! If I haven't quit by now after all the disasters I've had in this hobby over 50 years, then this past year's "disaster" with this little tank won't stop me!
(Honestly, I'm still leaning toward chalking up the problem to the tin....but still investigating. If this is the problem, it could happen to anyone and is just "my bad luck".....but no reason to quit!)I commented on bioload on my last post.
Not sure what chemicals you are referring too (unless it is trisodium phosphate which I use temporarily to prevent PO4 from bottoming out). Maybe I need to INCREASE my bioload!
And, I'm not sure what you mean by saying "the underlying issue you have that might be the cause of it (bubble algae)". The issue didn't cause the bubble algae, the bubble algae came in on some Gulf rock that I added. It isn't causing a problem and is not of much concern right now.
Thanks for participating.
-Jim
Last edited:
OP
OP
I dose Iodine and it is usually close to 60 ug/l with Salifert but always lower on ICP (23-50).
Of course a "burn" during the day may not manifest until the night, but with the halide on for just 4 hrs, it just seems unlikely that too much light is the culprit especially since I haven't had this problem months earlier (when the halide was on for 5 hrs). I'll get the PAR meter out tomorrow and check, but I doubt a 250W halide for 4 hours would burn them.
I'm going back and putting my money on the tin..... after thinking I was finished with that! After removing the new wavemaker today, I will do a few big water changes and "soak test" the wavemaker. (But a soak test of some new "non-braided" tubing has to come first. I use the "free" RO/DI tube with ATI-ICP to run the "soak tests" whenever I send in a sample for my tank water).
Thanks for your idea! Much appreciated.
chicago
Valuable Member
Interesting read.. lots of suggestions and opinions. In my years of sps and more.. My tank always had issues when I did water changes.. stirred up the gravel was my concern.. I would always think I was stirring up some nasties into the water that effected everything. Other note .. for years my Hana showed zero and yet I always knew I had high phosphates since algae was growing in the tank... just my 2 cents worth,.. happy holidays all
1ocean
2500 Club Member
After reading this all with a cup of Christmas coffee, I have to agree the tank is way to overloaded with stuff ...
best Idea is to reduce the bio load by getting rid of stuff or setting up another tank, to move stuff to, if you can not part with stuff.
Then once you do, then perhaps things will level out and you can get a grasp on the situation...at this current place you will never win this fight with the current tank/sump set up...
best Idea is to reduce the bio load by getting rid of stuff or setting up another tank, to move stuff to, if you can not part with stuff.
Then once you do, then perhaps things will level out and you can get a grasp on the situation...at this current place you will never win this fight with the current tank/sump set up...
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
No your tank isn't dirty. Please do not use Vibrant. It does work but it has caused nightmares for myself and a lot of others.
Do you have a UV sterilizer? If not, might be worth adding one. It will help with algae but also help with harmful bacteria if you have any that are causing TN.
What about a Refugium? If not, then I would find a way to add some Chaeto. It will help outcompete the other algae in the Display.
Do you have a UV sterilizer? If not, might be worth adding one. It will help with algae but also help with harmful bacteria if you have any that are causing TN.
What about a Refugium? If not, then I would find a way to add some Chaeto. It will help outcompete the other algae in the Display.
OP
OP
What "stuff" are you referring to? Fish? (Other than fish I there are 50lb rock and 40 nubs of SPS, a gorgonian, and 2 Rose corals.....all these contributing a negligible "load" IMO).
If I have an excessive bioload, why do I have to dose PO4 to keep them from bottoming out? NO4 are now about 15.
My latest thought has to do with RO/DI. It is a long-shot, but I find it odd that I haven't had to change resins in 11 months. I need to calculate an estimate of water production during this time, but it could be more than 1400 gallons. (The anion cartridge is just starting to show a color change, only about 10%). More on this later......
Thanks for responding on Christmas!
Merry Christmas Everyone !!
OP
OP
I have a HOB refugium which I wrote about. One of my concerns all along is "why can't I keep chaeto alive?" That may go along with the reason why suddenly, I was able to stop scraping the glass. If macro and micro algae isn't growing well, then maybe what ever is causing that is also hurting the zooxanthellae.
I have a UV and have been wanting to set it up but I'm finding every tubing I "soak-test" for tin is coming back with very high values. (I'm sending out another "test" on non-braided tubing from Lowes on Monday but have to await the results which will take 2 weeks before considering using it). I still can't dismiss the idea of tin being the problem. (It seems like this would make a lot of sense considering it has been so hard to come up with a better explanation, IMO).
Thanks for the warning about Vibrant.....I'm aware.
OP
OP
Definitely, IMO. I never use chemiclean and rarely use carbon (except on fish Q tanks to get rid of copper, prazi and antibiotics). I am using it now (for no more than 5 days) pretty much out of desperation. Again, I am convinced that if I do nothing and don't find the answer, all the frags will perish. RR Applejacks, one that I've had the longest and has been holding up the best, started to "go" as of this morning.
Tomorrow I will post about some RO/DI thoughts I am having......(although I will be surprised if this turns out to be the answer).
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