Why am I failing?

[lake985]

I've still got plenty of intensity to raise them (they are only at 10% currently) and I like them mounted higher to reduce shadowing and any colour separation. I think this is also the height BRS recommended. Sorry, not trying to sound argumentative, just adding information

I was in a similar situation a few years ago with very stagnant growth and random coral deaths. Besides my nutrients being high, I also had low mag and PAR levels. I think correcting your lighting levels, increasing your mag (especially if the ICP test is accurate), and stabilizing alk/calc as a result of the mag increase, will get you on the right track. I run a 48" Photon V2+ 10" above a 22" deep tank and it ramps up to 75% during the day. As you suspect, you are definitely not providing sufficient lighting at only 10% intensity and at a much higher mounting height.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Maybe not you. I am concerned about recommending the approach to others and want them to consider the possible outcomes... good and bad.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Looking for some tips and advice, and possibly just a pick me up as I'm really struggling with my tank. Essentially, I'm finding that new corals do okay for a while then suddenly decline and die, or just look rubbish. I have some known issues that I am trying to solve (dinos, low PAR) but I feel like my tank is just stuck in horrible phase and that I'm losing things I really shouldn't be, especially given how diligent I am on maintenance, water changes and testing. Others who started tanks at the same time are doing great in comparison, which is really getting me down.

My day job is scientist and I consume huge amounts of reef-related videos, podcasts, forum posts, so I don't feel as though it's simply a lack of ability or knowledge. I will say that I am running my system on a canister filter and the knee-jerk reaction from many may be that this is the issue – but I really can't see how this would be as the issue with canisters is their "potential" to spike nutrients, but I've been running this canister now for almost 2 years without nutrients issues (in fact, nutrients bottoming out has been the bigger problem). In my view, a well maintained canister filter is just a self-contained sump. So, with that said, her is the low-down...

Specs
140 L (40 gallon long)
Dry rock (mix of marco rock, AF rock and some real coral skeleton); recently also added some chunks of live rock from LFS
Canister filter, with graded sponge pre-filters that is changed weekly and around 5kg of mature biomedia.
In-line heater (ink bird controlled), in-line algae reactor with cheato, in-line UV steriliser
Light fixture is the EU-version of the reef breeder photon, mounted fairly high for good spread
RODI ATO (have own RODI system and ICP on product water showed no contaminants)
2 x MP10s on reef crest at 40%
Sand is ocean direct from Carib
Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt, until recently; slowly switching to AquaForest reef salt.

Testing
Weekly with hanna HR nitrate, ULR Phosphate, marine pH, and alk.
I also did an ICP in November.

Livestock
Pair of clowns
Pair of Randall's gobies with pistol shrimp
Leopard wrasse
Midas blenny
Tail spot blenny
Royal gramma
3 x green chromis
Shunk shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
Hermits, snails, conch
Rock flower nem, BBT nem
Gorgonians
Zoas
Torches and hammers
Elegance coral
Some "easy SPS" (pavona, stylo, Monti cap etc)
Some recovering goniopora
Acans
Blastos
Lobo

Summary of issues
Minimal to zero alk consumption
LPS generally look shrunken or fully retracted into skeleton, with exception of things like blastos and recently acans
Brown jelly disease wiped out two torches a few weeks back
Some sort of bacterial infection introduced on new goniopora wiped out most of my goniopora garden– treated with hydrogen peroxide and seemed to have saved 2/5
Large cell amphidinium dinos; I assume this is what is killing my snails and causing things like some of my zoa to retract
Hair algae on most of rocks
Minimal to no coralline growth, though it did begin to start at one point, but has since stopped

Time line
June 2021 – Moved house and transferred livestock from a 1 year old 20 gallon to new set up, keeping a little bit of original rock (I wasn't happy with the scape, so made a new one). Kept all biomedia etc. Change lights and added new algae reactor and UV. Tank looked amazing from June-October, with corals showing growth, polyp extension and not a spec of algae of other ugly stage issues. I put this down to the mature biomedia, adding a lot of live stock at once and the ocean direct sand introducing a good microbiome.

October 2021 – Some coral losses (SPS), starting to see poly retraction. Due to nutrients suddenly bottoming out to zero in space of about a week?

November 2021 – brown algae on sand, rocks, assumed to be dinos and ugly stage. Massive GHA outbreak followed.

December 2021 – After lots of manual removal, more clean up crew, sludge-consuming bacteria additives etc, tank looked great again and I added more LPS corals. Major issue end of Dec: out of town for the weekend and a cold spell hits – without us in the house with the heating on tank temp drops to 23 degrees C for a few days until we return. Corals seem fine but could explain Jan stress events.

January 2022 – BJD takes out two torches, loss of goniopora to a presumed bacterial infection, generally all corals looking unhappy. Microscope shows what I thought were diatoms is actually dinos everywhere on sand and rocks, mixed in with GHA that has come back (and I think prevents stuff eating it).

February 2022 – tank looking somewhat better, dosing phyto, bacteria and silicates to try and beat dinos. Two major changes: several 20% water changes with new salt after TMP scare; Second change, I bought an apogee PAR meter are months of questioning my Seneye, and decided to slowly begin raising PAR about 10 PAR a week (my light does this gradually, i.e. a few % a day).

Possible (non-mutually exclusive) causes

Tank too young/unstable
Whilst I generally believe this to be part of the issue, my alk is fairly stable (varies by a few points around 8) as nothing is consuming it. Nutrients have gone up and down a bit and aren't too stable – I am struggling to find the right feeding and lighting schedule on the algae reactor to keep them constant. But probably explains why rocks are covered in algae still and why I have had nutrients bottom out. I think the nutrients bottoming out in October allowed pest algae to tank over (GHA and dinos).

Bad salt?
I bought a new box of TM pro salt in September and I do weekly 10% water changes. After seeing reports of this salt causing problems, I started switching to AF reef salt as a precaution. TM have since said there are no affected batches in the UK but I no longer have the box to check. I still can't shake the feeling that my tank started having issues after I began using the new box of salt, and I noticed it was mixing to a much higher alk (almost 9) and some weird particles that I hadn't seen previously. I also noticed that as soon as I did some water changes (actually, even after one) my acans and Duncan coral (which has been fully closed and I thought for sure dead for about two months) opened up again, with feeding tentacles fully extended. However, I can't disentangle this effect from lighting...

Low PAR
This is now my biggest suspect. I had used the seneye to set my lights up but I ran them quite low as a precaution initially, but thought PAR was within a 75-150 range throughout the whole tank. I recently had the chance to buy an apogee (which are rare in the UK) from a buddy and decided to try it out, since I had a feeling the seneye was off (the intensity level of my lights was only 8% and zoa were super stretched out). Sure enough, most of the tank was getting 30 PAR, with 50 at the top of the rocks where I had my easy SPS. I've since started increasing the lights by about 10 PAR per week, with the aim that they'll reach 75-150 PAR throughout the tank by March (so a few % a day, which my lights do automatically). Since I started doing this when I started switching salts, I can't say which is driving the improvements in LPS; is it possible that months of low PAR have been causing the gradual declines I've been seeing? Could it have made the corals weaker and susceptible to infection? I've not heard of low light killing corals (except SPS) but I presume it is possible, in the same way a plant in a dark corner will slowly drop leaves and wither away over months.

Dinos
I have the less toxic variety but assume they are the cause of many of my snails dying and why some of my soft corals are closed up. In combination with everything else, could be a contributing factor as to why things are going so badly.

Low pH
As I don't have a skimmer my pH is on the low side, and as no corals are growing, I assume I'm missing the mid day peak in pH. Whenever I measure pH though it's around 7.9-8.0, so not awful. But, as it's so cold here, and we've been working from home, there is certainly more Co2 in the air (no windows open, in the house all day). A lower pH could explain why issues started around Oct when we would have closed up the windows for winter (but house is quite drafty), but this is just an idea.

Toxin of some sort?
I am also really worried about this, perhaps from a bad salt batch or some other source. An ICP test in November revealed things were generally fine, and no pollutants in my RO water. But I had an iron level of 8.24 µg/l and zinc level of 16.85 µg/l. I don't think these are horribly high and TM pro is known to be high in iron. I was also dosing cheatogro quite regularly (since stopped) and I suppose that could have contributed. I recently ran some PolyFilter and after a week I'd say it's mostly brown with a red hue, which could indicate iron or aluminium.

Summary
Could be multiple causes of issue, not least because the tank is still young. That said, I feel like the tank should be in a better position than it is, given the amount of time I put into it and compared to others of similar age. I certainly shouldn't be losing relatively easy LPS. My biggest worry currently are my five or so hammers and lobo, that seem quite shrunken.

Any tips or ideas very welcome! I am going to continue trying to beat the dinos and raising PAR and I will not be adding any more coral any time soon after losing hundreds of pounds worth now! Also, if you need anymore information or photos, I'm very happy to provide it!

Maybe your issue is the tmp Turkey salt that everyone else has been having issue with.

 

[chris_pull]

Maybe your issue is the tmp Turkey salt that everyone else has been having issue with.

I also thought this and it was weirdly a relief when I heard about it, as it could explain alot. But apparently the bad stuff didn’t make it to the UK. I wish I kept the box to check but sadly I threw it out a long time ago.

 

[markwayts]

I read three pages and had to ask how do you check your salinity? How often? Does it fluctuate? Are you using a known calibration fluid? I don't think you have toxins or too many fish. I think your corals are struggling in a low light low Ph enviroment and are week. The dinos and parasites can thrive in those kinds of situations.

 

[jetskiwilly]

Ditch the canister and run a traditional sump/skimmer.

here’s what I imagine with canister: clean…pulling poop, bacteria starts, poop starts breaking down being released back into tank, Canister change beneficial bacteria has to start over. Fresh pads bottom out nutrition and cycle starts again.

skimmer just taking 10% off the top all day every day. Days when poops is 150, it’s taking 15, when poop is 50 it’s taking 5. Just a smooth consistent nutrition level.

also growth is largely tied to PH, 8.1-8.3 growing. Under 8 things are just surviving.

just a guess. Kalkwasser would do you miracles for you.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[damsels are not mean]

Lots of little tips here that may help but all these issues seem to stem from the fact that you started the tank so fast and didn't let the rock season at all. The bacteria and various algae that grow on the tank have no competition and there was never a period of time where they had a chance to all do their blooms and balance out. This whole story sounds like so many that have happened the dry rock days. This isn't water parameters or lighting or whatever. This is an ecosystem that is trying find equilibrium that hasn't had that chance.

 

[ZoWhat]

Ditch the canister and run a traditional sump/skimmer.

here’s what I imagine with canister: clean…pulling poop, bacteria starts, poop starts breaking down being released back into tank, Canister change beneficial bacteria has to start over. Fresh pads bottom out nutrition and cycle starts again.

skimmer just taking 10% off the top all day every day. Days when poops is 150, it’s taking 15, when poop is 50 it’s taking 5. Just a smooth consistent nutrition level.

also growth is largely tied to PH, 8.1-8.3 growing. Under 8 things are just surviving.

just a guess. Kalkwasser would do you miracles for you.
Thanks for sharing.

I believe your problem is a lack.of oxygenation and gas exchanges NOT USING a skimmer.

My reef tank from 2007, about a year ago, had a dead siice pump in my internal skimmer overnight. Had to wait 4 days to get a new one replaced to get skimmer working again.

Inside those 3 days of not running a skimmer, noticeable decline in coral health.

I'm very much anti-canister but don't like to argue with ppl who apply them in a SW reef environment. They're convinced of their methods, I'm convinced of mine. Waste of time.

.

 

[chris_pull]

I read three pages and had to ask how do you check your salinity? How often? Does it fluctuate? Are you using a known calibration fluid? I don't think you have toxins or too many fish. I think your corals are struggling in a low light low Ph enviroment and are week. The dinos and parasites can thrive in those kinds of situations.

1.026, tested with Hanna salinity pen that’s calibrated monthly with their calibration solution. I agree re low light and pH

 

[Jcar]

If I have problems I usually try to do a few water changes to help out whatever is going on. I haven't had many problems though thankfully

 

[chris_pull]

Lots of little tips here that may help but all these issues seem to stem from the fact that you started the tank so fast and didn't let the rock season at all. The bacteria and various algae that grow on the tank have no competition and there was never a period of time where they had a chance to all do their blooms and balance out. This whole story sounds like so many that have happened the dry rock days. This isn't water parameters or lighting or whatever. This is an ecosystem that is trying find equilibrium that hasn't had that chance.

Generally agree, but I did cycle the rock for about three months before setting up the tank, I have 5kg of mature biomedia, and I did keep some rock from my old system. I did try my best under the circumstances of moving house to try and make the transition easier, but probably it was not enough. It is weird though how the tank ran for several months without issues, it was only the bottoming out of nutrients that led to pest algae outbreaks. I assume this meant beneficial bacteria died off and allowed the pest species to take over.

 

[chris_pull]

I believe your problem is a lack.of oxygenation and gas exchanges NOT USING a skimmer.

My reef tank from 2007, about a year ago, had a dead siice pump in my internal skimmer overnight. Had to wait 4 days to get a new one replaced to get skimmer working again.

Inside those 3 days of not running a skimmer, noticeable decline in coral health.

I'm very much anti-canister but don't like to argue with ppl who apply them in a SW reef environment. They're convinced of their methods, I'm convinced of mine. Waste of time.

.

I do hear you, and I realise my system isn’t ideal. I’d love a sump but I guess I’m committing the concord fallacy and determine that this should work - I just can’t see how it’s that different to an all in one. I’m also not just simply running a canister that’s getting clogged up and dirty, I’ve tried to my best to mimic a sump set up. I agree the major component missing is a skimmer and that one would help with gas exchange. Still, I don’t think this should really be explaining what I’m expediting, as many nanos run without skimmed; heck, there are some stunning little tanks that are essentially fish bowls. I also realise my limitations and recognise I’ll never be growing acros, but that’s not my aim.

 

[chris_pull]

I just wanted to update this post as I implemented some of the changes suggested here and have seen some positive impacts.

Based on the feedback received here I decided to add a hang-on-back skimmer primarily to up my pH. After some teething issues, it's been running for about two weeks and my pH has gone from 7.8 to 8.3, seemingly no matter when I test (for a week I tested at 8 am and 8 pm every day, and sporadically here and there at other times). I have also been raising my PAR and I'm just now getting into "normal" ranges, but still, a way to go before the whole tank is 75-150 PAR. I also did another ICP and everything was fine except 0 ppm iodine and high (40 ppm) aluminium, for which I am trying to find the source. I also started adding AF Life Source as a way to boost the microbial diversity (who knows if it does), in addition to the usual bacterial supplements (MB7, Waste-Away, Eco-Balance).

The changes in some of my corals have been quite dramatic. In particular, my acans are now very fleshy and have great extension, with feeding tentacles permanently on display. There is also some excellent colouration coming through on the stylophora I have, and in general, corals just look a bit happier. My dinos have also cleared up a bit by the looks of things.

Most importantly, after months of zero alk consumption, I am now seeing a daily consumption of .1 dKh, a really positive sign that things are heading the right direction. Hard to say for sure what the cause is, but I really do think my PAR was far too low, and probably boosting pH has helped too.

I'm now undecided whether to begin kalk dosing, as I like all the added benefits it has, or revert to the all for reef powder.

Many thanks to everyone who contributed and provided constructive feedback.