Why am I failing?

chris_pull

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Looking for some tips and advice, and possibly just a pick me up as I'm really struggling with my tank. Essentially, I'm finding that new corals do okay for a while then suddenly decline and die, or just look rubbish. I have some known issues that I am trying to solve (dinos, low PAR) but I feel like my tank is just stuck in horrible phase and that I'm losing things I really shouldn't be, especially given how diligent I am on maintenance, water changes and testing. Others who started tanks at the same time are doing great in comparison, which is really getting me down.

My day job is scientist and I consume huge amounts of reef-related videos, podcasts, forum posts, so I don't feel as though it's simply a lack of ability or knowledge. I will say that I am running my system on a canister filter and the knee-jerk reaction from many may be that this is the issue – but I really can't see how this would be as the issue with canisters is their "potential" to spike nutrients, but I've been running this canister now for almost 2 years without nutrients issues (in fact, nutrients bottoming out has been the bigger problem). In my view, a well maintained canister filter is just a self-contained sump. So, with that said, her is the low-down...

Specs
140 L (40 gallon long)
Dry rock (mix of marco rock, AF rock and some real coral skeleton); recently also added some chunks of live rock from LFS
Canister filter, with graded sponge pre-filters that is changed weekly and around 5kg of mature biomedia.
In-line heater (ink bird controlled), in-line algae reactor with cheato, in-line UV steriliser
Light fixture is the EU-version of the reef breeder photon, mounted fairly high for good spread
RODI ATO (have own RODI system and ICP on product water showed no contaminants)
2 x MP10s on reef crest at 40%
Sand is ocean direct from Carib
Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt, until recently; slowly switching to AquaForest reef salt.

Testing
Weekly with hanna HR nitrate, ULR Phosphate, marine pH, and alk.
I also did an ICP in November.

Livestock
Pair of clowns
Pair of Randall's gobies with pistol shrimp
Leopard wrasse
Midas blenny
Tail spot blenny
Royal gramma
3 x green chromis
Shunk shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
Hermits, snails, conch
Rock flower nem, BBT nem
Gorgonians
Zoas
Torches and hammers
Elegance coral
Some "easy SPS" (pavona, stylo, Monti cap etc)
Some recovering goniopora
Acans
Blastos
Lobo

Summary of issues
Minimal to zero alk consumption
LPS generally look shrunken or fully retracted into skeleton, with exception of things like blastos and recently acans
Brown jelly disease wiped out two torches a few weeks back
Some sort of bacterial infection introduced on new goniopora wiped out most of my goniopora garden– treated with hydrogen peroxide and seemed to have saved 2/5
Large cell amphidinium dinos; I assume this is what is killing my snails and causing things like some of my zoa to retract
Hair algae on most of rocks
Minimal to no coralline growth, though it did begin to start at one point, but has since stopped

Time line
June 2021 – Moved house and transferred livestock from a 1 year old 20 gallon to new set up, keeping a little bit of original rock (I wasn't happy with the scape, so made a new one). Kept all biomedia etc. Change lights and added new algae reactor and UV. Tank looked amazing from June-October, with corals showing growth, polyp extension and not a spec of algae of other ugly stage issues. I put this down to the mature biomedia, adding a lot of live stock at once and the ocean direct sand introducing a good microbiome.

October 2021 – Some coral losses (SPS), starting to see poly retraction. Due to nutrients suddenly bottoming out to zero in space of about a week?

November 2021 – brown algae on sand, rocks, assumed to be dinos and ugly stage. Massive GHA outbreak followed.

December 2021 – After lots of manual removal, more clean up crew, sludge-consuming bacteria additives etc, tank looked great again and I added more LPS corals. Major issue end of Dec: out of town for the weekend and a cold spell hits – without us in the house with the heating on tank temp drops to 23 degrees C for a few days until we return. Corals seem fine but could explain Jan stress events.

January 2022 – BJD takes out two torches, loss of goniopora to a presumed bacterial infection, generally all corals looking unhappy. Microscope shows what I thought were diatoms is actually dinos everywhere on sand and rocks, mixed in with GHA that has come back (and I think prevents stuff eating it).

February 2022 – tank looking somewhat better, dosing phyto, bacteria and silicates to try and beat dinos. Two major changes: several 20% water changes with new salt after TMP scare; Second change, I bought an apogee PAR meter are months of questioning my Seneye, and decided to slowly begin raising PAR about 10 PAR a week (my light does this gradually, i.e. a few % a day).

Possible (non-mutually exclusive) causes

Tank too young/unstable
Whilst I generally believe this to be part of the issue, my alk is fairly stable (varies by a few points around 8) as nothing is consuming it. Nutrients have gone up and down a bit and aren't too stable – I am struggling to find the right feeding and lighting schedule on the algae reactor to keep them constant. But probably explains why rocks are covered in algae still and why I have had nutrients bottom out. I think the nutrients bottoming out in October allowed pest algae to tank over (GHA and dinos).

Bad salt?
I bought a new box of TM pro salt in September and I do weekly 10% water changes. After seeing reports of this salt causing problems, I started switching to AF reef salt as a precaution. TM have since said there are no affected batches in the UK but I no longer have the box to check. I still can't shake the feeling that my tank started having issues after I began using the new box of salt, and I noticed it was mixing to a much higher alk (almost 9) and some weird particles that I hadn't seen previously. I also noticed that as soon as I did some water changes (actually, even after one) my acans and Duncan coral (which has been fully closed and I thought for sure dead for about two months) opened up again, with feeding tentacles fully extended. However, I can't disentangle this effect from lighting...

Low PAR
This is now my biggest suspect. I had used the seneye to set my lights up but I ran them quite low as a precaution initially, but thought PAR was within a 75-150 range throughout the whole tank. I recently had the chance to buy an apogee (which are rare in the UK) from a buddy and decided to try it out, since I had a feeling the seneye was off (the intensity level of my lights was only 8% and zoa were super stretched out). Sure enough, most of the tank was getting 30 PAR, with 50 at the top of the rocks where I had my easy SPS. I've since started increasing the lights by about 10 PAR per week, with the aim that they'll reach 75-150 PAR throughout the tank by March (so a few % a day, which my lights do automatically). Since I started doing this when I started switching salts, I can't say which is driving the improvements in LPS; is it possible that months of low PAR have been causing the gradual declines I've been seeing? Could it have made the corals weaker and susceptible to infection? I've not heard of low light killing corals (except SPS) but I presume it is possible, in the same way a plant in a dark corner will slowly drop leaves and wither away over months.

Dinos
I have the less toxic variety but assume they are the cause of many of my snails dying and why some of my soft corals are closed up. In combination with everything else, could be a contributing factor as to why things are going so badly.

Low pH
As I don't have a skimmer my pH is on the low side, and as no corals are growing, I assume I'm missing the mid day peak in pH. Whenever I measure pH though it's around 7.9-8.0, so not awful. But, as it's so cold here, and we've been working from home, there is certainly more Co2 in the air (no windows open, in the house all day). A lower pH could explain why issues started around Oct when we would have closed up the windows for winter (but house is quite drafty), but this is just an idea.

Toxin of some sort?
I am also really worried about this, perhaps from a bad salt batch or some other source. An ICP test in November revealed things were generally fine, and no pollutants in my RO water. But I had an iron level of 8.24 µg/l and zinc level of 16.85 µg/l. I don't think these are horribly high and TM pro is known to be high in iron. I was also dosing cheatogro quite regularly (since stopped) and I suppose that could have contributed. I recently ran some PolyFilter and after a week I'd say it's mostly brown with a red hue, which could indicate iron or aluminium.

Summary
Could be multiple causes of issue, not least because the tank is still young. That said, I feel like the tank should be in a better position than it is, given the amount of time I put into it and compared to others of similar age. I certainly shouldn't be losing relatively easy LPS. My biggest worry currently are my five or so hammers and lobo, that seem quite shrunken.

Any tips or ideas very welcome! I am going to continue trying to beat the dinos and raising PAR and I will not be adding any more coral any time soon after losing hundreds of pounds worth now! Also, if you need anymore information or photos, I'm very happy to provide it!

70F3EE45-B4BA-4C9D-9C8B-9B9396FB9641.JPG
 

Utubereefer

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What is your maintenance routine on the canister filter? Do you use mechanical filtration?
What are your mag levels? Sometimes alk consumption will stop if mag is too low.
What lights are you using?
 

vetteguy53081

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Lighting and water flow are big essentials
You started with all dry rock and no form of bacteria and biodiversity
You will want to add 1,5ml if liquid bacteria such as micro bacter XLM per 10 gallons daily for 2 weeks
What test kits are you using? Some are reliable while others deliver false readings
Are you using RODI water or tap water from the faucet?
Are you quarantining livestock?
Are you acclimating livestock?
 

Noxsolaris

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Looking for some tips and advice, and possibly just a pick me up as I'm really struggling with my tank. Essentially, I'm finding that new corals do okay for a while then suddenly decline and die, or just look rubbish. I have some known issues that I am trying to solve (dinos, low PAR) but I feel like my tank is just stuck in horrible phase and that I'm losing things I really shouldn't be, especially given how diligent I am on maintenance, water changes and testing. Others who started tanks at the same time are doing great in comparison, which is really getting me down.

My day job is scientist and I consume huge amounts of reef-related videos, podcasts, forum posts, so I don't feel as though it's simply a lack of ability or knowledge. I will say that I am running my system on a canister filter and the knee-jerk reaction from many may be that this is the issue – but I really can't see how this would be as the issue with canisters is their "potential" to spike nutrients, but I've been running this canister now for almost 2 years without nutrients issues (in fact, nutrients bottoming out has been the bigger problem). In my view, a well maintained canister filter is just a self-contained sump. So, with that said, her is the low-down...

Specs
140 L (40 gallon long)
Dry rock (mix of marco rock, AF rock and some real coral skeleton); recently also added some chunks of live rock from LFS
Canister filter, with graded sponge pre-filters that is changed weekly and around 5kg of mature biomedia.
In-line heater (ink bird controlled), in-line algae reactor with cheato, in-line UV steriliser
Light fixture is the EU-version of the reef breeder photon, mounted fairly high for good spread
RODI ATO (have own RODI system and ICP on product water showed no contaminants)
2 x MP10s on reef crest at 40%
Sand is ocean direct from Carib
Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt, until recently; slowly switching to AquaForest reef salt.

Testing
Weekly with hanna HR nitrate, ULR Phosphate, marine pH, and alk.
I also did an ICP in November.

Livestock
Pair of clowns
Pair of Randall's gobies with pistol shrimp
Leopard wrasse
Midas blenny
Tail spot blenny
Royal gramma
3 x green chromis
Shunk shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
Hermits, snails, conch
Rock flower nem, BBT nem
Gorgonians
Zoas
Torches and hammers
Elegance coral
Some "easy SPS" (pavona, stylo, Monti cap etc)
Some recovering goniopora
Acans
Blastos
Lobo

Summary of issues
Minimal to zero alk consumption
LPS generally look shrunken or fully retracted into skeleton, with exception of things like blastos and recently acans
Brown jelly disease wiped out two torches a few weeks back
Some sort of bacterial infection introduced on new goniopora wiped out most of my goniopora garden– treated with hydrogen peroxide and seemed to have saved 2/5
Large cell amphidinium dinos; I assume this is what is killing my snails and causing things like some of my zoa to retract
Hair algae on most of rocks
Minimal to no coralline growth, though it did begin to start at one point, but has since stopped

Time line
June 2021 – Moved house and transferred livestock from a 1 year old 20 gallon to new set up, keeping a little bit of original rock (I wasn't happy with the scape, so made a new one). Kept all biomedia etc. Change lights and added new algae reactor and UV. Tank looked amazing from June-October, with corals showing growth, polyp extension and not a spec of algae of other ugly stage issues. I put this down to the mature biomedia, adding a lot of live stock at once and the ocean direct sand introducing a good microbiome.

October 2021 – Some coral losses (SPS), starting to see poly retraction. Due to nutrients suddenly bottoming out to zero in space of about a week?

November 2021 – brown algae on sand, rocks, assumed to be dinos and ugly stage. Massive GHA outbreak followed.

December 2021 – After lots of manual removal, more clean up crew, sludge-consuming bacteria additives etc, tank looked great again and I added more LPS corals. Major issue end of Dec: out of town for the weekend and a cold spell hits – without us in the house with the heating on tank temp drops to 23 degrees C for a few days until we return. Corals seem fine but could explain Jan stress events.

January 2022 – BJD takes out two torches, loss of goniopora to a presumed bacterial infection, generally all corals looking unhappy. Microscope shows what I thought were diatoms is actually dinos everywhere on sand and rocks, mixed in with GHA that has come back (and I think prevents stuff eating it).

February 2022 – tank looking somewhat better, dosing phyto, bacteria and silicates to try and beat dinos. Two major changes: several 20% water changes with new salt after TMP scare; Second change, I bought an apogee PAR meter are months of questioning my Seneye, and decided to slowly begin raising PAR about 10 PAR a week (my light does this gradually, i.e. a few % a day).

Possible (non-mutually exclusive) causes

Tank too young/unstable
Whilst I generally believe this to be part of the issue, my alk is fairly stable (varies by a few points around 8) as nothing is consuming it. Nutrients have gone up and down a bit and aren't too stable – I am struggling to find the right feeding and lighting schedule on the algae reactor to keep them constant. But probably explains why rocks are covered in algae still and why I have had nutrients bottom out. I think the nutrients bottoming out in October allowed pest algae to tank over (GHA and dinos).

Bad salt?
I bought a new box of TM pro salt in September and I do weekly 10% water changes. After seeing reports of this salt causing problems, I started switching to AF reef salt as a precaution. TM have since said there are no affected batches in the UK but I no longer have the box to check. I still can't shake the feeling that my tank started having issues after I began using the new box of salt, and I noticed it was mixing to a much higher alk (almost 9) and some weird particles that I hadn't seen previously. I also noticed that as soon as I did some water changes (actually, even after one) my acans and Duncan coral (which has been fully closed and I thought for sure dead for about two months) opened up again, with feeding tentacles fully extended. However, I can't disentangle this effect from lighting...

Low PAR
This is now my biggest suspect. I had used the seneye to set my lights up but I ran them quite low as a precaution initially, but thought PAR was within a 75-150 range throughout the whole tank. I recently had the chance to buy an apogee (which are rare in the UK) from a buddy and decided to try it out, since I had a feeling the seneye was off (the intensity level of my lights was only 8% and zoa were super stretched out). Sure enough, most of the tank was getting 30 PAR, with 50 at the top of the rocks where I had my easy SPS. I've since started increasing the lights by about 10 PAR per week, with the aim that they'll reach 75-150 PAR throughout the tank by March (so a few % a day, which my lights do automatically). Since I started doing this when I started switching salts, I can't say which is driving the improvements in LPS; is it possible that months of low PAR have been causing the gradual declines I've been seeing? Could it have made the corals weaker and susceptible to infection? I've not heard of low light killing corals (except SPS) but I presume it is possible, in the same way a plant in a dark corner will slowly drop leaves and wither away over months.

Dinos
I have the less toxic variety but assume they are the cause of many of my snails dying and why some of my soft corals are closed up. In combination with everything else, could be a contributing factor as to why things are going so badly.

Low pH
As I don't have a skimmer my pH is on the low side, and as no corals are growing, I assume I'm missing the mid day peak in pH. Whenever I measure pH though it's around 7.9-8.0, so not awful. But, as it's so cold here, and we've been working from home, there is certainly more Co2 in the air (no windows open, in the house all day). A lower pH could explain why issues started around Oct when we would have closed up the windows for winter (but house is quite drafty), but this is just an idea.

Toxin of some sort?
I am also really worried about this, perhaps from a bad salt batch or some other source. An ICP test in November revealed things were generally fine, and no pollutants in my RO water. But I had an iron level of 8.24 µg/l and zinc level of 16.85 µg/l. I don't think these are horribly high and TM pro is known to be high in iron. I was also dosing cheatogro quite regularly (since stopped) and I suppose that could have contributed. I recently ran some PolyFilter and after a week I'd say it's mostly brown with a red hue, which could indicate iron or aluminium.

Summary
Could be multiple causes of issue, not least because the tank is still young. That said, I feel like the tank should be in a better position than it is, given the amount of time I put into it and compared to others of similar age. I certainly shouldn't be losing relatively easy LPS. My biggest worry currently are my five or so hammers and lobo, that seem quite shrunken.

Any tips or ideas very welcome! I am going to continue trying to beat the dinos and raising PAR and I will not be adding any more coral any time soon after losing hundreds of pounds worth now! Also, if you need anymore information or photos, I'm very happy to provide it!

70F3EE45-B4BA-4C9D-9C8B-9B9396FB9641.JPG
I run a canister on my 65G. I took out all of the sponge filters and added extra ceramic bio media (basically running it as a bacteria reactor and water movement device). I didn’t see a skimmer in your list of equipment. I run a hob skimmer and get some pretty nasty junk out of it. I would recommend getting one if you don’t have one already. My tank is still fairly young, but seems pretty stable to me thus far. Check out my build thread and see if it has any similarities to yours.

Hope some of the advice you get helps.
 
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chris_pull

chris_pull

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Lighting and water flow are big essentials
You started with all dry rock and no form of bacteria and biodiversity
You will want to add 1,5ml if liquid bacteria such as micro bacter XLM per 10 gallons daily for 2 weeks
What test kits are you using? Some are reliable while others deliver false readings
Are you using RODI water or tap water from the faucet?
Are you quarantining livestock?
Are you acclimating livestock?
I think most of this is above but in case it's missing or unclear:

I have two MP-10s and all corals are moving in the current. I also built the rock structure so it's very open but with lots of areas for fish to hide. Lighting is also overkill for the tank, as the panel is as long as the tank and almost half as wide, and mounted high to provide a blanket of light.

The tank wasn't 100% sterile – I have 5kg of mature biomedia from a previous set up, some mature live rock and ocean direct sand. I also regularly add microbacter 7, dr Tim's eco balance, TM bacteria, and have done since the start.

Hanna tests kits for everything except calcium (salifert) and mag (AF). I test weekly at a minimum, though Calcium and Mag every few weeks.

I have my own RODI and ICP showed zero contaminates of product and it's always at 0 TDS.

I am not QT'ing but I acclimate fish and inverts, and dip corals.
What is your maintenance routine on the canister filter? Do you use mechanical filtration?
What are your mag levels? Sometimes alk consumption will stop if mag is too low.
What lights are you using?
I change the mechanical filtration weekly, which consists of several graded (coarse to fine) sponges and filter floss. Mag levels at last check were 1350 ppm, though ICP in Nov said 1223.13.

Light is a reef breeder Photon V2+, which spans the length and about half the width of the tank.
 

Utubereefer

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Mag is definitely a little low…Give that a bump to around 1400. What lighting again?
 

Utubereefer

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The other canister guy might have a point with removing mechanical filtration on your canister filter. Unless you change it every other day stuff will start to break down in there…
 

Utubereefer

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I saw reef breeder lights… maybe you can lower them??? Like hang closer to the water line. Throwing lots of stuff at you it’s definitely best to change one thing at a time so you don’t screw your system up too much but your not happy with your tank right now anyway. Good luck
 
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So it is clearer, here is my filtration set up. In my mind it can't be too dissimilar to what would be achieved with a sump, minus a skimmer. Water flows down into the little white canister, which only holds mechanical filtration (a coarse and medium sponge, followed by filter loss, and a bag of carbon). Water then enters the main canister where the heater is located and every tray is filled with biomedia (5kg worth). It then exits into an algae reactor containing cheato, before passing through a UV and returning the tank. The inlet pipe has a skimmer function to prevent oil build up on the surface.

Every week I change the mechanical filtration and every 2 weeks or so the cheato. I change the carbon approx. monthly.
 

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The other canister guy might have a point with removing mechanical filtration on your canister filter. Unless you change it every other day stuff will start to break down in there…
What harm though would this be causing? I can't see it being any different to leaving a filter sock on for longer to increase your nutrients. I think being too clean was what caused my nutrients to bottoms out and caused the dinos.

I forgot to say what my current nutrients levels are actually! No3 is around 10 and Po4 0.1 ppm.
 
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chris_pull

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I saw reef breeder lights… maybe you can lower them??? Like hang closer to the water line. Throwing lots of stuff at you it’s definitely best to change one thing at a time so you don’t screw your system up too much but your not happy with your tank right now anyway. Good luck
I've still got plenty of intensity to raise them (they are only at 10% currently) and I like them mounted higher to reduce shadowing and any colour separation. I think this is also the height BRS recommended. Sorry, not trying to sound argumentative, just adding information :D
 

Utubereefer

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What harm though would this be causing? I can't see it being any different to leaving a filter sock on for longer to increase your nutrients. I think being too clean was what caused my nutrients to bottoms out and caused the dinos.

I forgot to say what my current nutrients levels are actually! No3 is around 10 and Po4 0.1 ppm.
Bulk Reef Supply uploaded a video to their YouTube page where they test frequency of replacing mechanical filtration and every other day was the best result for them. It never completely bottoms out your nutrients but keeps them at a constant level..
 
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Mag is definitely a little low…Give that a bump to around 1400. What lighting again?
Here is the full ICP output from November. My plan is to do one every three months or so and I've got a new one ready to go this week.

I'll look into raising Mag. I'd planned to use all for reef but I want something with a pH boosting effect and to be able to control the elements separately, since currently alk is not being consumed (though I hope it'll start to increase now I am raising my PAR).
 

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Utubereefer

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I've still got plenty of intensity to raise them (they are only at 10% currently) and I like them mounted higher to reduce shadowing and any colour separation. I think this is also the height BRS recommended. Sorry, not trying to sound argumentative, just adding information :D
You sound fine. Turn up those lights!!!
 
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Bulk Reef Supply uploaded a video to their YouTube page where they test frequency of replacing mechanical filtration and every other day was the best result for them. It never completely bottoms out your nutrients but keeps them at a constant level..
I can try it I just worry it'll cause my nutrient to bottom out haha.
 

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What harm though would this be causing? I can't see it being any different to leaving a filter sock on for longer to increase your nutrients. I think being too clean was what caused my nutrients to bottoms out and caused the dinos.

I forgot to say what my current nutrients levels are actually! No3 is around 10 and Po4 0.1 ppm.
The only thing I can think of is without any sort of bacterial load in the canister itself some of the captured waste is festering and not being broken down properly. Just spitballing here. I don’t really run any mechanical filtration other than the skimmer so I’m not trying to tell you to change your setup. Just ideas.
 
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The only thing I can think of is without any sort of bacterial load in the canister itself some of the captured waste is festering and not being broken down properly. Just spitballing here. I don’t really run any mechanical filtration other than the skimmer so I’m not trying to tell you to change your setup. Just ideas.
Not sure I follow as I've got 5kg of biomedia in the canister that's almost 2 years old. It's just the pre-filter section (similar to a filter sock being separate from a biomedia section in a sump) that is regularly changed.
 

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Just wondering... have you considered moving those two MP10s to opposite ends, so they push across the tank and collide in the middle, so you get more random movement? Seems like with everything on the back, all the flow would be one directional from back to front. Varying intensity, but still the same direction. If the pumps are across from each other, you'd get more random patterns, which corals seem to like. Ever time I've had too much flow in just one directions, corals seem to suffer.
 

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Doesn’t seem filtration or PH is your issue. At some point there are too many variables to contend with in identifying the issue. I’m not a knee jerk reaction kind of guy but I’m also not one to keep banging my head against a wall hoping at some point it works. Might want to consider preparing 100% replacement water matching PH, alk, calcium, mag, temp and salinity. Drain quickly and replace. Do maintenance on all mechanical filtration and start fresh. However, if something in the tank is leeching and why it is causing issues then this will be temporary. I’d however perform another ICP with the old water. This temporary reprieve might then provide time to fix the issue.

Reef Man found a rusting pump which he discovered too late and for the most part wiped his tank out.

Caveat, ICP tests aren’t perfect. There could be errors in what it displays.

Last I’d do is keep adding life until what’s causing problems is resolved.
 

Jekyl

GSP is the devil and clowns are bad pets
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I can try it I just worry it'll cause my nutrient to bottom out haha.
No clue how nutrients would bottom out with that many fish in a small tank
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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