Why are all systems running out of bacteria?

[mindme]

I was not carbon dosing at the time . But makes sense …. I think .

Carbon dosing isn't needed for the bacteria to work, it just amplifies it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ive noticed low nutrient systems there tends to outbreaks in cyano when po4 and

Theoretical Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates can become Thriving species under certain Nutrition conditions, because they have a high demand in the nutrient C. its most observed outbreaks of both species in Nutrient situations that become low or no P and N available, the low P and N availability theoretical could cause a Build up in the Nutrient C. In my opinion the reason that only some will get a outbreak of Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates under this conditions is mainly because not all tanks contain the seed of Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates making both species, opportunistic hitchhiker species that will bloom under a nutrient condition that allows C to become more available.
the reason they becoming more common now that 10 years ago is mainly as they are getting into more systems as hitchhiker imo
I’ve got a thread going that discusses the theory of most tanks having a optimal nutrient ratio that affects the residual nitrate and phosphates concentration and how limitations at the nutrition level can be detrimental to a system.

 

[sixty_reefer]

This could be the answer to @sixty_reefer
But now has me thinking why all
Of a sudden is there a spike in needing to dose bacteria ?

Still doesn’t make sense to me making a bacteria that we already got available and then boost a complete different species (heterotrophic bacteria) using Carbon. Why not just make Carbon more available.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I believe it’s new and almost a trend .
when in doubt add bacteria .
but as we all know bacteria population will grow as long as they have a sufficient food source. The rest die off without is knowing .
To this question I was advised by my lfs to dose nitrifying bacteria to my established system to battle high nitrates and phosphates and surprisingly enough. .it helped .
Is there perhaps a way of setting up a experiment and measure bacteria other than measuring ammonia , nitrites and nitrates ?

A momentarily boost of bacteria could do this although it could just mean that the nutrient C was becoming a limitation factor in your tank, heterotrophic bacteria can help a system reducing residual Nitrate and Phosphates. @MnFish1 done a really good experiment that unfortunately didn’t got the attention that it should have, imo in one of the experiments that he did what I found fascinating was that the rock that contained heterotrophic and nitrifying bacteria would deplete ammonia faster than the rock that just had nitrifying bacteria.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I totally agree. That's why I was wondering where the OP got the info saying it's depleted. Maybe I missed the reply in the comments.

I’m not saying it’s depleted it’s just a observation that I see many doing and wondered why the increase need to add more diversity of bacteria to already established systems.

 

[Jedi1199]

Ok, let me ask this. Are all of the 80+ bacterial strains mentioned in an earlier post present in every natural reef? Do we need every one in our home tanks?

I ask this because I know that not all bacteria exist in nature everywhere. I will verify this with this scenario. Why is San Fransisco sourdough bread so sought after? Is there some secret ingredient that is used here that nobody else in the world has yet to figure out?

The answer is both yes and no. What makes San Francisco sourdough bread so absolutely unique over all others is bacteria. The natural bacteria in the San Fransisco area is unique to the region and cannot be found anywhere else in the world.

If we follow this logic, would it not by default be reasonable that the bacterial strains we find in our tanks be relevant to the region we live in?

By the same logic, if these bacterial strains are not naturally present in our area, as they would be in the area of the natural habitat of the reef where the specimens originate, would we not need to in some way replicate those strains?

For example, If I were to have my water tested for every bacterial strain that exists in my tank, with no added bottled stuff, and compare it to say @Rmckoy, who lives in an entirely different region, I suspect that we would have entirely different strains present in our tanks. Many would be identical for sure, but in what concentration?

 

[Koty]

Have not read the entire thread but the first thing I learned in undergrad microbiology is the word ubiquity. Bacteria are everywhere and when you set up a new tank even with dry artificial rock many bacteria will populate it just from the dust falling into your tank (water salt mix etc your hands and your breath). Another basic point is that the diversity of bacteria is beyond our grasp. Everything you put in your tank adds bacteria of some sort whether it's a fish, a coral, or a rock. probably with time the population adjusts itself to the numerous niches each having a set of distinct features and available nutrients. Bacteria can use many insane types of organic chemicals as an energy source.
Regarding the contribution of adding bacteria from a bottle: It is great if it works. Is anybody aware of any scientific data showing that compared to control, the microbiome in a tank shifts after adding these bacteria? I have microbacter7 in my fridge and I used it sometimes but cannot say that I have seen any benefit. I would say that carbon dosing may be a much more relevant factor in affecting diversity. My guess is that adding at the same time many types of carbon sources, for example, methanol, ethanol, acetic acid, sugars of various kinds, etc, may contribute more to bacterial diversity. However, even achieving such diversity we have to show that it is beneficial for our pets in the DT.

 

[Jedi1199]

Further food for thought. In the 14th and 15th centuries, early explorers that discovered the American continents in search of gold, also discovered corn as a food staple. They took this seed corn back to the "old world" and produced it as a staple food source. What they DIDN'T take with them is the understanding of nixtamalization. As a result, thousands died due to nutritional deficiencies. They had the food, but lacked the process of turning it into something healthy and digestible for human beings.

Are the bacteria strains we are discussing here something along that line? Is there a bacterium that we need to provide for our corals, that exists in the natural habitat, that does not exist in our homes that the corals NEED in order to thrive?

 

[Duncan62]

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is not "chemicals"

What about the ammonia you add to feed those bacteria. Chemical? What about all the algecides and pesticides you add to kill harmless hitchhikers. I know bacteria us not a chemical. Pour that bacteria in and add no chemicals. They'll all die. Get algae and dinos. Pour in more chemicals instead of fixing the nutrient issue. Test 3 times a week. Not for me. I'm out.

 

[Duncan62]

Bottled nitrifying bacteria is not "chemicals"

Reread. I never said it was.

 

[sixty_reefer]

What about the ammonia you add to feed those bacteria. Chemical? What about all the algecides and pesticides you add to kill harmless hitchhikers. I know bacteria us not a chemical. Pour that bacteria in and add no chemicals. They'll all die. Get algae and dinos. Pour in more chemicals instead of fixing the nutrient issue. Test 3 times a week. Not for me. I'm out.

Our system couldn’t work as effective without chemicals, I am a huge supporter for the right use of elements/chemicals to keep a stable reef system.

 

[Duncan62]

Our system couldn’t work as effective without chemicals I am a huge supporter for the right use of elements/chemicals to keep a stable reef system.

To each his own. I'll stick to mother nature whenever possible. I've kept fish and corals since 76 with good success. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. My systems aren't like most on this thing so my opinion really doesn't apply. I get great pleasure knowing my animals are thriving. Isn't that what counts? There's many ways to achieve this. Best of luck in the future.

 

[sixty_reefer]

To each his own. I'll stick to mother nature whenever possible. I've kept fish and corals since 76 with good success. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. My systems aren't like most on this thing so my opinion really doesn't apply. I get great pleasure knowing my animals are thriving. Isn't that what counts? There's many ways to achieve this. Best of luck in the future.

You probably didn’t understood me right, the implementation of chemicals is a natural approach to reef keeping, for example the use of Calcium chloride and bicarbonate of soda are chemical compounds that are used to stabilise the availability of Ca and Kh in our reefs, they replicating the natural environment, we could say the same for all synthetic salts etc.. without the right implementation of the use of chemicals reef keeping would be almost out of reach to most that don’t live in coastal areas.

 

[Rmckoy]

Ok, let me ask this. Are all of the 80+ bacterial strains mentioned in an earlier post present in every natural reef? Do we need every one in our home tanks?

I ask this because I know that not all bacteria exist in nature everywhere. I will verify this with this scenario. Why is San Fransisco sourdough bread so sought after? Is there some secret ingredient that is used here that nobody else in the world has yet to figure out?

The answer is both yes and no. What makes San Francisco sourdough bread so absolutely unique over all others is bacteria. The natural bacteria in the San Fransisco area is unique to the region and cannot be found anywhere else in the world.

If we follow this logic, would it not by default be reasonable that the bacterial strains we find in our tanks be relevant to the region we live in?

By the same logic, if these bacterial strains are not naturally present in our area, as they would be in the area of the natural habitat of the reef where the specimens originate, would we not need to in some way replicate those strains?

For example, If I were to have my water tested for every bacterial strain that exists in my tank, with no added bottled stuff, and compare it to say @Rmckoy, who lives in an entirely different region, I suspect that we would have entirely different strains present in our tanks. Many would be identical for sure, but in what concentration?

I don’t believe strains or geographical locations would make any difference . A
Large percentage are not using natural sea water

 

[neo1738]

Personally I don't think we need to keep adding bacteria to our reefs. What problem are you trying to solve? Obviously Ammonia -> Nitrate -> Nitrate are essential but everything else will come in on fish, live rock (if you have it) etc. Ppl had reef tanks way before bacteria in a bottle was a big thing.

 

[Duncan62]

You probably didn’t understood me right, the implementation of chemicals is a natural approach to reef keeping, for example the use of Calcium chloride and bicarbonate of soda are chemical compounds that are used to stabilise the availability of Ca and Kh in our reefs, they replicating the natural environment, we could say the same for all synthetic salts etc.. without the right implementation of the use of chemicals reef keeping would be almost out of reach to most that don’t live in coastal areas.

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about cycling a tank with bacteria and ammonia. This hobby would be impossible without replacing naturally occurring elements depleted by living creatures. There are natural ways to control nutrients and almost every algae there is. If nitrate is low feed more. Reefroids is full of phosphate. I'm just saying if I cycle 100 more tanks before I die I won't buy bacteria and window cleaner to do it. Or pour chemiclean or algae killers in mine. One 2 lb live rock is better than the bottle. IMO only.

 

[Rmckoy]

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about cycling a tank with bacteria and ammonia. This hobby would be impossible without replacing naturally occurring elements depleted by living creatures. There are natural ways to control nutrients and almost every algae there is. If nitrate is low feed more. Reefroids is full of phosphate. I'm just saying if I cycle 100 more tanks before I die I won't buy bacteria and window cleaner to do it. Or pour chemiclean or algae killers in mine. One 2 lb live rock is better than the bottle. IMO only.

This ^

 

[sixty_reefer]

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about cycling a tank with bacteria and ammonia. This hobby would be impossible without replacing naturally occurring elements depleted by living creatures. There are natural ways to control nutrients and almost every algae there is. If nitrate is low feed more. Reefroids is full of phosphate. I'm just saying if I cycle 100 more tanks before I die I won't buy bacteria and window cleaner to do it. Or pour chemiclean or algae killers in mine. One 2 lb live rock is better than the bottle. IMO only.

I agree with you 100% how you see reef keeping is amazing

 

[Garf]

Even tank inhabitants can alter bacteria populations;

 

[Karen00]

I’m not saying it’s depleted it’s just a observation that I see many doing and wondered why the increase need to add more diversity of bacteria to already established systems.

Aaah. I see. The only threads I have read that reference adding bacteria are for cycling (which may or may not be needed) and tank crashes but also to help with managing nutrients (supposedly bacteria will reduce phosphates). I have seen a few threads where something had gone awry in the tank and the suggestion was to try bacteria but I don't think it was a proven tactic for dealing with whatever was wrong. I think I even saw a thread about using bacteria for a certain algae (and I'm not talking about vibrant). It seems bacteria has become a go to for a lot of things (whether it works or not is a different story).