Why are lionfish so disliked?

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Renee
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I totally understand and respect ur response and stance on this issue. However I was not putting anyone on blast and also wasn't trying to step on toes. Also please don't apologize to someone not being nice to me... Really don't understand what got this turned into a heated debate. I was curious and wanted to get some other opinions about lionfish in the trade and in our oceans.

I think you totally misread me. Totally.........

I thought you were saying you had a lionfish (you said MY, not why), so I was supporting US owning them...... you and I. I thought someone was being mean and I was feeling bad for you...... was.

I was gonna ask if you wanted me to go beat someone up for you.
 
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hart24601

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Just need to get the american public to develop a taste for lionfish. Once there is $$$$ in any animal we are pretty good with inventing ways to hunt species to extinction - at least locally. Just has to be worth it financially.
 
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I think you totally misread me. Totally.........

I thought you were saying you had a lionfish (you said MY, not why), so I was supporting US owning them...... you and I. I thought someone was being mean and I was feeling bad for you...... was.
My apologies. Yes that's what I meant to type was why. I tried to edit but didn't remember how. U have a wealth of knowledge on these guys and it's a tremendous help to lots of people here. I was just trying to get a better understanding of the issues and see if there was more we could be doing as hobbyist to help with the cause.
 

FeliciaLynn

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My apologies. Yes that's what I meant to type was why. I tried to edit but didn't remember how. U have a wealth of knowledge on these guys and it's a tremendous help to lots of people here. I was just trying to get a better understanding of the issues and see if there was more we could be doing as hobbies to help with the cause.
It definitely seems to be mostly an issue of educating hobbyists about the dangers of releasing non-native species into local waters. A lot of people don't think of the damage that releasing their unwanted fish into the ocean can cause. And its not just fish! Caulerpa algae in California is another great example of this issue. Its also not just the aquarium industry. Non-native plants, bugs, and other animals can also become invasive species. I linked this on the last page, but I'll move it here since I think its a good source of information. Here's a recent publication by MASNA on the lionfish invasion.
http://masna.org/masna-programs/lionfish-education/
 
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Great read FeliciaLynn, very interesting the way the maps shows the infestation of the lionfish since 1985. None the less they are one of the most beautiful fish in our oceans and in some peoples tanks in my opinion.
 

FeliciaLynn

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Great read FeliciaLynn, very interesting the way the maps shows the infestation of the lionfish since 1985. None the less they are one of the most beautiful fish in our oceans and in some peoples tanks in my opinion.
Yeah they really are some of the most unique fish. I love my lionfish, but I also appreciate the issue they are causing on the East Coast and in the Carribbean. I think that it would be a shame to ban them completely from the hobby, but I do think aquarists need to pay way more attention to these issues and I agree with legislation to help control the issue, such as the ban on importing them to Florida. Unfortunately, the issue is that all the experts agree that there is just not going to be a way to 100% eradicate them from the east coast waters now that they've taken hold like this. Its just focusing on population control at this point to try to protect the fish that are their prey.
 

timkenagy

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I don't like how they automatically assume the problem came from the aquarium hobby. Sure it's possible but there's plenty of other explanations on how the got where they shouldn't be. And I often see us sit there and take these legends as facts and *facepalm* like yep it was us, when nobody really knows. But they like to point the finger.. And there's a lot of people that wish harm on the hobby so they fuel it.
 

Lionfish Lair

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I don't like how they automatically assume the problem came from the aquarium hobby. Sure it's possible but there's plenty of other explanations on how the got where they shouldn't be. And I often see us sit there and take these legends as facts and *facepalm* like yep it was us, when nobody really knows. But they like to point the finger.. And there's a lot of people that wish harm on the hobby so they fuel it.

I sit there and take it because I agree with "them".
 

Lionfish Lair

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i hate them so much i would eat one fryed from the carribean. Such an invasive fish

O well i still hate them theyre so ugly! i would like to go spear fishing and kill *** many as i can
lol

Do you think the same of cats? Are you aware of the damage feral cats have caused? Waaaaaaay more than lions. Because these cats are causing havoc in the wild, should we hate and kill them all?

US Fish and Wildlife - Feral Cats
 

Tori

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Do you think the same of cats? Are you aware of the damage feral cats have caused? Waaaaaaay more than lions. Because these cats are causing havoc in the wild, should we hate and kill them all?

I'm so glad someone brought this up. I'm completely shocked by how many people have no clue how damaging cats are to native species. My fiance and I have two cats and they have never been and will never be let outside.

Also as a new reefer, who loves learning anything about the hobby, I just want to say thank you to everyone for all the educational info on Lionfish posted here. I had no ideal there were even more than one species of Lionfish before I started exploring these forums.
 

Lionfish Lair

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- I've owned 2 cats.
- I would not kill a lion, but I would eat one already killed..... I'm a disgrace to my fisherman family.
- I support Derbys. (the idea of it, I would not participate)
- I have given some of my graphics and pictures to groups such as Lionfish Hunters to promote awareness.
- I support the Florida ban.
- I believe we (hobbyist) are a source of the Atlantic lions et al.
- I have personally released fish (Guppies and Mollies) into the ocean. Yes, you read that right.

That's Renee in a nutshell.
 

timkenagy

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I sit there and take it because I agree with "them".

You agree that the hobbiest for sure introduced the invasive species? Because it's possible it hitched a ride through eggs or a million other different ways. There's a serious problem with Asian carp in the Illinois/Mississippi making the way to the Great Lakes. The state has spent millions keeping them out of the lake but it's a matter of time.. The river is full of millions.. They didn't swim here from Asia... Not a fish people keep in the aquarium trade.. But somehow got into the Illinois River. If it was a fish that people bought at petco.. I guarantee the hobby would be blamed.. But since it's not there is no blame on that case... So sorry I don't agree with "them".. They find invasive species attached to the hulls of ships or garbage that washes ashore all the time. But I keep hearing stories about some guy letting 3 go because they outgrew his tank, or a hurricane hit a pet shop in Florida.. Or a hurricane hit a pet shop in South Carolina.. I'm not saying it's not possible.. But there's lobbyists that try to make coral, fish inverts etc illegal based one possibilities instead of facts.
 

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You agree that the hobbiest for sure introduced the invasive species? Because it's possible it hitched a ride through eggs or a million other different ways. There's a serious problem with Asian carp in the Illinois/Mississippi making the way to the Great Lakes. The state has spent millions keeping them out of the lake but it's a matter of time.. The river is full of millions.. They didn't swim here from Asia... Not a fish people keep in the aquarium trade.. But somehow got into the Illinois River. If it was a fish that people bought at petco.. I guarantee the hobby would be blamed.. But since it's not there is no blame on that case... So sorry I don't agree with "them".. They find invasive species attached to the hulls of ships or garbage that washes ashore all the time. But I keep hearing stories about some guy letting 3 go because they outgrew his tank, or a hurricane hit a pet shop in Florida.. Or a hurricane hit a pet shop in South Carolina.. I'm not saying it's not possible.. But there's lobbyists that try to make coral, fish inverts etc illegal based one possibilities instead of facts.
The grass carp came from a fish farm that got flooded by the Mississippi river we have them in KY lake to and it's wide spread.
 

Lionfish Lair

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You agree that the hobbiest for sure introduced the invasive species?

What? I didn't say that. I said I believe releases are a source, as in one source, not thee only source. Nobody knows anything "for sure" and that's why people are trying to form connectivity hypothesis. Of course you don't have to agree with them.... it's kind of how hypotheses work.

You agree that the hobbiest for sure introduced the invasive species? Because it's possible it hitched a ride through eggs or a million other different ways. There's a serious problem with Asian carp in the Illinois/Mississippi making the way to the Great Lakes. The state has spent millions keeping them out of the lake but it's a matter of time.. The river is full of millions.. They didn't swim here from Asia... Not a fish people keep in the aquarium trade.. But somehow got into the Illinois River. If it was a fish that people bought at petco.. I guarantee the hobby would be blamed.. But since it's not there is no blame on that case... So sorry I don't agree with "them".. They find invasive species attached to the hulls of ships or garbage that washes ashore all the time. But I keep hearing stories about some guy letting 3 go because they outgrew his tank, or a hurricane hit a pet shop in Florida.. Or a hurricane hit a pet shop in South Carolina.. I'm not saying it's not possible.. But there's lobbyists that try to make coral, fish inverts etc illegal based one possibilities instead of facts.

Actually, there's not a million ways, there are only a few ways of probability presented. They look at the haplotypes in one area and compare them to another. They are able to tell where they came from, but not how they got there. We try to analyze all the different ways, but nothing fits perfectly and that's why there is no decisive answer. A lot of currents would stop eggs from going from "Area A" to "Area B".

I can't post full diagrams, because they are not mine to share, but they show some very interesting influences of currents. I left a little of the text as well, so you could get an idea of the data.

color.jpg

(Betancur‐R., R., Hines, A., Acero P., A., Ortí, G., Wilbur, A., & Freshwater, D. (2011). Reconstructing the lionfish invasion: insights into Greater Caribbean biogeography. Journal of Biogeography, 38(7),)


I really like this one as well, because it shows all the different variables involved in these hypothesis.

mito.jpg

(D., W., Andrew, H., Seth, P., Ami, W., Michelle, S., Jennifer, W., Lad, A., Bruce, P., Paula, W., & Claire, P. (2009). Mitochondrial control region sequence analyses indicate dispersal from the US East Coast as the source of the invasive Indo-Pacific lionfish Pterois volitans in the Bahamas. Marine Biology, 156(6), 1213-1221.)


They figure the yearly hurricanes are pushing eggs and larvae from Florida to the Bahamas. So, that I believe to be current related, but it's the wrong direction. A great resource for that is; Johnston, M., & Purkis, S. (2015). Hurricanes accelerated the Florida–Bahamas lionfish invasion. Global Change Biology, 21(6), 2249-2260.

I would love to think we were not contributors, but there is more than one thing that has caused this perfect storm. Lions are one of those frequently released animals, because they grow to their promised size and people are no longer able to house them and become tired of them eating their fish..... poorly planned acquisitions. Do you know how many people have come up in my face about these guys? I had a booth at Max one year and a fellow vendor stopped me in the isle and was saying some of the craziest, most uneducated information that any hobbyist should be embarrassed to spew. I really have poured over dozens of legit studies before I formed my hypothesis. I didn't take to this lightly.
 
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Lionfish Lair

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I do not believe Hurricane Andrew had anything to do with it. #1 They were spotted in those waters before the hurricane and #2 the haplotypes did not support it. We're not saying they weren't released, because they were. The aquarium had 6 prior to the hurricane and had zero after. The DNA of their accidentally released stock did not match the genetic mix that's out there.
 

aaron23

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well im going lion fish hunting in 2 weeks for the first time. wish me luck that I dont get eaten by a shark so i can come back and take care of my reef
 

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What? I didn't say that. I said I believe releases are a source, as in one source, not thee only source. Nobody knows anything "for sure" and that's why people are trying to form connectivity hypothesis. Of course you don't have to agree with them.... it's kind of how hypotheses work. That's why piranna are not supposed to be sold south of the Ohio but they are.



Actually, there's not a million ways, there are only a few ways of probability presented. They look at the haplotypes in one area and compare them to another. They are able to tell where they came from, but not how they got there. We try to analyze all the different ways, but nothing fits perfectly and that's why there is no decisive answer. A lot of currents would stop eggs from going from "Area A" to "Area B".

I can't post full diagrams, because they are not mine to share, but they show some very interesting influences of currents. I left a little of the text as well, so you could get an idea of the data.

color.jpg

(Betancur‐R., R., Hines, A., Acero P., A., Ortí, G., Wilbur, A., & Freshwater, D. (2011). Reconstructing the lionfish invasion: insights into Greater Caribbean biogeography. Journal of Biogeography, 38(7),)


I really like this one as well, because it shows all the different variables involved in these hypothesis.

mito.jpg

(D., W., Andrew, H., Seth, P., Ami, W., Michelle, S., Jennifer, W., Lad, A., Bruce, P., Paula, W., & Claire, P. (2009). Mitochondrial control region sequence analyses indicate dispersal from the US East Coast as the source of the invasive Indo-Pacific lionfish Pterois volitans in the Bahamas. Marine Biology, 156(6), 1213-1221.)


They figure the yearly hurricanes are pushing eggs and larvae from Florida to the Bahamas. So, that I believe to be current related, but it's the wrong direction. A great resource for that is; Johnston, M., & Purkis, S. (2015). Hurricanes accelerated the Florida–Bahamas lionfish invasion. Global Change Biology, 21(6), 2249-2260.

I would love to think we were not contributors, but there is more than one thing that has caused this perfect storm. Lions are one of those frequently released animals, because they grow to their promised size and people are no longer able to house them and become tired of them eating their fish..... poorly planned acquisitions. Do you know how many people have come up in my face about these guys? I had a booth at Max one year and a fellow vendor stopped me in the isle and was saying some of the craziest, most uneducated information that any hobbyist should be embarrassed to spew. I really have poured over dozens of legit studies before I formed my hypothesis. I didn't take to this lightly.
I think you are completely right. That's why pirannas are not supposed to be sold south of the Ohio river but they are.
 

Maritimer

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I do not believe Hurricane Andrew had anything to do with it. #1 They were spotted in those waters before the hurricane and #2 the haplotypes did not support it. We're not saying they weren't released, because they were. The aquarium had 6 prior to the hurricane and had zero after. The DNA of their accidentally released stock did not match the genetic mix that's out there.

This is important knowledge. Thank you!

~Bruce
 

Lionfish Lair

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It's a very messy topic and it never seems to be easy to talk about. One thing we have to remember is that this is a website about pet fish. It's not an angler forum, it's not a scuba forum, it's not a spear hunting forum, it's a pet forum. In being responsible pet owners, we should talk about the invasive issue and what we can do to help. But there's no need to be crude, graphic, violent, hateful or disrespectful and we are often met with just that. Remember these are legal fish we have in our tank.


Let's put this in perspective by using the feral cat example again and I'm not trying to pick on anyone, it's just a good example of what we have to answer to and how it sounds to us.


Feral cats are the invasive volitans of Florida. House cats are like the pet lions we have in our tanks. I replaced the fishing references in the quotes below with cats.....

"i hate them so much i would eat one fryed from the carribean. Such an invasive feline"

"O well i still hate them theyre so ugly! i would like to go spear hunting and kill *** many as i can"

Does that even half way sound appropriate for a cat forum? Talking about feral cats, yes. What we can do to help, yes. That above.....no.

Does that make sense?
 

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