why do water changes?

[Steve Fast]

Does anyone know what land locked public aquariums do?

 

[VR28man]

As one can tell from this thread, this is a near religious issue for some on both sides.

From what I've learned reading lots of threads and books:
- Sometimes there's an easy answer: if I'm doing a pico or small nano, then just do daily-to-weekly 100% changes because they're easy. But if I'm doing a 100gallon tank, 100% weekly changes are much much harder.

- If something bad happened in the tank, I'll need a water change ASAP.

- If I'm using the Triton system, or the ATI essentials system (my choice), they say don't do water changes.

- If I'm doing the Red Sea system (foundations, trace elements, nopox, and all the test kits), it says do a weekly water change.

I am a fan of systems because smarter people with lab experience are behind the whole thing. Each of these three systems, and several others, are used successfully by many people.



What if you're not running any of those systems? (lets say I'm just using Baking soda, dowflakes, and epsom salts) Or, put in a different way, what is the basic logic behind them?

I come to this as a beginning Acropora keeper, based on book and forum understanding but without signifcant practical experience.



I need to keep things as stable as possible, to a set of parameters.

Therefore, if I'm trying to keep things stable, it seems to me that I need to pick a salt mix that meets my goals, and dose baking soda and dowflakes to keep alk/cal/mg at the salt mix's levels. I think this might be the most critical point.

• If I don't keep the big 3 at the salt mix's levels, then I'm honestly wasting my time doing water changes, because my big three will always be changing. They'll change between water changes, and then change again when I do the change.

I need to measure those paramaters. I think these days that means, like the Triton/ATI methods, fairly regular alk tests, other tests as needed, and seasonal ICP tests. This tells me a huge amount.

This also assumes my feeding and nutrient export is balanced (not necessarily low feeding, though doing this by low feeding is far and away the easiest) to keep nitrate and phosphates at a low level. If you can't keep this under decent control, water changes might be necessary. I would also argue that you might not be ready for an acropora system.

Then there's the question of trace elements. If my tank has a strong appetite for, say, strontium, I will have it constantly depleted and variable, even if I do water changes, unless I do a 100% water change frequently.

But this brings us to a different point: I believe the best practice for water changes is to do roughly weekly water changes of around 10% (+/- a factor of two for either time or amount). If you do too much, you again unbalance things.

In that case, with our strontium will always be chronically depleted unless i detect that it's being consumed so much, and supplement it.

I can get around that by lightly dosing a WAG amount of the trace element formula of my choice, and basically trust the manufacturer when they say "use 5ml of this per 10 gal per week (or whatever) to keep trace elements at good rates". Hopefully, ICP will help me correct any errors I make.

Note that at this point I might as well be doing one or another of the Triton, ATI, Red Sea, etc. systems.

(as an aside, a soft coral and/or photosynthetic gorgonian tank where they don't mind, any may appreciate, elevated levels of nitrate and phosphate, might not mind swings in these parameters, and where they might not be picky about trace elements, is a completely different ball game than the way I understand acropora keeping. Same thing might go in a mixed softy/gorgo and macroalgae tank; in which case fairly frequent changes, up to maybe 50% a week, probably, based on my limited understanding of such things, be good to get out all kinds of organics. Running such a tank with water changes only and no supplementation may be viable)




In summary, I see only a few courses of action, based on my understanding of acropora care:

- replace the water 100% very frequently (say weekly at the most); so that in the intervening time there's little chance that the tank's parameters will become too different from the fresh saltwater. This option is viable for tanks under 5 gallons, but I think a bit of a chore for tanks over 10 gallons. (or, if you live literally next to the sea, you can automatically pump it into a holding tank. I think that would be cool; and if I were in such a situation I probably do at least daily 100% changes.) This *may* be the healthiest option overall.

- run one of the systems mentioned above, or another brand of your own choosing. And don't do it willy nilly; run it lock stock and barrel.

- DIY your own system, to match your chosen natural/artificial sea water (otherwise, all your supplementation and water changes, it seems to me, is useless). I don't see how this gets around the trace element problem, unless you just want to fire and forget with a certain brand of trace elements, and/or if you want to believe that most trace element monitoring/supplementation is snake oil.

My choice was #2, and I'll start ATI essentials in a week or so once I have a good guess as to what my daily alk consumption is.

Again, if you're running corals that don't mind modest shifts in Nitrates/phosphates and don't care too much about trace elements, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

[shred5]

People have anecdotally indicated that carbon could remove the organics, they could break down or they could get skimmed. While all of this is possible, I do not think that anybody really knows what happens. I know of no tests.

That was my point.

 

[WWIII]

There's a good article from a couple years ago here on R2R covering water changes...

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/water-changes-a-thing-of-the-past-or-necessity-of-the-present.4/

 

[Lasse]

Does anyone know what land locked public aquariums do?

@Sallstrom

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

As one can tell from this thread, this is a near religious issue for some on both sides.

In my case - not at all - I will use WC if I need to but I will not do it as a routine. In the past - then I got issues with my tank - there has been to many coincident with WC and problems that I can´t exclude bad batches of salt. It ended up with using only one brand and only one of this manufacturer products - but even this brand had its issues. And i can´t afford to do routine WC with these super pure salts that have shown up lately (there salt and trace elements is separated). And all of these "super-duper" bio salts that´s have shown up during the last 4 years - they will never ever come into my aquaria. If my ICP test show serious issues and the only possibility is an action like the trick you normally do when your electronics goes berserk - Norwegian reset - I´ll do that without a doubt.

(For the book - the word berserk comes from the beginning from the Scandinavian word bärsärk - not from a Japanese manga as you may think if you do a Google. It is the fire and fury from Scandinavian Wikings high on forest mushrooms :) )

Sincerely Lasse

 

[glennf]

If fuge and gfo remove phosphorus. If carbon removes what carbon removes. If skimmer removes all the gunk and particals. If calcium, magnesium, alk, major, and minor trace elements are added. If cycled tank removes all ammonia nitrite and nitrate. Then why should i do water changes?
this is not an argument. This is a legit question. Im willing to do water changes. I just don't understand why i am doing them.

IMO once you control the essentials ommiting WC is just fine.

It worked outstanding for me since 2004.
Unless you are an addict of WC i see no reason for regular changes.

 

[Lasse]

IMO once you control the essentials ommiting WC is just fine.

It worked outstanding for me since 2004.
Unless you are an addict of WC i see no reason for regular changes.

​

A lot of this comes down to experience and expectations. I have seen a thousand tanks, or more, and never seen one that did not do regular water changes that looked as good as those that do...

@jda I think you have done it now :) and even my video from the maritime museum shows a successful no WC tank - not as gorgeous as Glennf:s - but a working tank

@glennf What light do you use nowadays ?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[glennf]

My maintenance shedule:

My 1200 liter maintank has gone with no regular WC since 2004. All other reeftanks (11 total) are without WC since 2015.
Read the story in here: http://www.DSRreefing.com/history

- 15-60minutes daily feeding, twice a day and enjoying my fish and corals
- 5-20 minutes every other day replacing 7 powerfilter and cleaning 11 reeftank windows.
- 20 minutes every 2-3 weeks, doing measurements and correction per system (i have 4 separate system)
- 2 hours every other week visiting LFS to gain new ideas
- 15 minutes a week cleaning 3 skimmer cups
- 5 hours every 3 months, cutting excess corals and making frags
- 3hours per 6 months, cleaning sump, pumps, skimmers
- 5 hours once a year, siphoning sand bottom.

Here are some picture of my tanks.

 

[glennf]

This tank since april 2015 no WC.

Rescape twice because all corals has grown toward surface since than.




10 months earlier

 

[glennf]

This is another dutch reeftank without WC.

Leon koopmans is a reefmaster

 

[glennf]

My 1200 liter tank 1 year ago

 

[glennf]

A few months ago... I rescaped again and also removed some massive pieces

It's more and more becomming a coral farm than display tank.

 

[glennf]

​

@jda I think you have done it now :) and even my video from the maritime museum shows a successful no WC tank - not as gorgeous as Glennf:s - but a working tank

@glennf What light do you use nowadays ?

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks mate.
Just as i stated before, only controlling the essentials are just fine. Why mimic NSW when you can boast it's performance? Just my thoughts, which up till now isn't a disappointment to myself.

You just need to get it right.......to get all out of it.

I still believe T5 is unbeatable with coloring and growth.

But i am experimenting with Led combinations to mimic or boast the very reliable T5 performance.

This tank is 50% led

2x T5 blueplus 54watt
2x T5 coralpus 54watt
2x bluepop led 30watt
2x bluewhite Ledstrips 30watt

 

[glennf]

This acantastrea tank is with 100% Diy leds
Started 28feb2018

 

[glennf]

Another dutch reefer without WC

Dennis ter braak's tank is perfect!

Follow his thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/320085/

 

[Sallstrom]

Does anyone know what land locked public aquariums do?

We, Sjöfartsmuseet Akvariet(The Maritime Museum & Aquarium Gothenburg), have had a good cooperation with Triton lab since 2013/2014. We are not following any exact method, but we try to achieve as good water as possible and for us the ICP tests have been a great help. Since we have a lot of different tanks with different habitats, the filters/sumps/life support systems looks different for all the tanks. But we try to adjust the parameters to get as close as possible to Tritons guidelines even in our cold water tanks for example. And we do water changes when we need to, but not otherwise.
We are situated in Gothenburg, Sweden, so we are close to the sea but don't have access to good natural sea water.

/David

 

[glennf]

In my case - not at all - I will use WC if I need to but I will not do it as a routine. In the past - then I got issues with my tank - there has been to many coincident with WC and problems that I can´t exclude bad batches of salt. It ended up with using only one brand and only one of this manufacturer products - but even this brand had its issues. And i can´t afford to do routine WC with these super pure salts that have shown up lately (there salt and trace elements is separated). And all of these "super-duper" bio salts that´s have shown up during the last 4 years - they will never ever come into my aquaria. If my ICP test show serious issues and the only possibility is an action like the trick you normally do when your electronics goes berserk - Norwegian reset - I´ll do that without a doubt.

(For the book - the word berserk comes from the beginning from the Scandinavian word bärsärk - not from a Japanese manga as you may think if you do a Google. It is the fire and fury from Scandinavian Wikings high on forest mushrooms :) )

Sincerely Lasse

+1
bad salt batches are an ongoing issue

 

[Yoni]

Another dutch reefer without WC

Follow his thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/320085/

 

[glennf]

Belgian?