To put it in the simplest terms. You want what you can't have.
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I said it before and I'll say it again. There isn't a shortage of indo euphyllia. The indo ban just was an excuse to ratchet up the prices.I'd think the indo corals we loved would be available thru fellow hobbyists and frags. I just dont understand why the need for crazy greedy prices
Pretty simple really. It all comes down to growth. Do you think you can grow corals cheaper; indoors in fish tanks, lit with lights that you had to buy and use electricity to run, with water movement from pumps you had to buy and cost money to run, etc etc, or in a leased spot in the ocean, with flow provided by the tides and currents, fed by wild fish, and lit by the sun?I'd think the indo corals we loved would be available thru fellow hobbyists and frags. I just dont understand why the need for crazy greedy prices
You think we can aquaculture them for the same price and at the same rate that mariculture can? I'd be interested to know if you have anything backing up that statement. Sure, I'm positive there is some price gouging going on. But to state unequivocally supply hasn't changed is bold and probably wrong.I said it before and I'll say it again. There isn't a shortage of indo euphyllia. The indo ban just was an excuse to ratchet up the prices.
No coral exports, of any kind, from Indo. Meaning no wild coral harvesting, but also no maricultured coral exports.What exactly is the ban for?
Most people do not fill their entire tanks with super high end pieces. You may desire the rainbow bowerbanki most, but you surround it with "bread and butter corals". Some of these similar corals you can still get from Australia at much higher costs. Some you simply can't.
When Australia first opened up it was amazing. New corals we had never seen before, but we've now had them for 10+ years so the initial excitement is long gone. with Indo corals you never knew what you were going to find in shipments. Brown stuff, ultra grade - for the most part it was priced similarly. Of course if and when it comes back those days are gone, but the diversity could still return.
So Australia was off limits at one time? I thought I remembered correctly. In another thread I said it was until sometime in the early 2000's and I was told I was wrong, that it had always been open to coral exports.
That is an excellent point. Your question implies a line of thinking that too many hobbyist have adopted as normal. Your view and my view are going to differ if we approach it from separate positions. I'm not in this hobby to make money, I didn't start filling a tank with delusions of grandeur of someday becoming rich, that's complete opposite of what a hobbyist is.You think we can aquaculture them for the same price and at the same rate that mariculture can? I'd be interested to know if you have anything backing up that statement. Sure, I'm positive there is some price gouging going on. But to state unequivocally supply hasn't changed is bold and probably wrong.
Not sure why you’re making that assumption of my view. As I never mentioned “my costs”. I’ve happily traded many corals, only money I’ve ever received is store credit.That is an excellent point. Your question implies a line of thinking that too many hobbyist have adopted as normal. Your view and my view are going to differ if we approach it from separate positions.
Again, your opinion doesn’t jive with basic economics. Supply tanked. Prices rose. They naturally find a point to settle on as the new equilibrium. Sure, hobbyists and businesses can undercut each other. But as I said, anyone growing out for profit has much higher costs than wild harvest or even mariculture.Now to your point, it's easy to conclude that if indo shut down then supply has dropped. But that doesn't justify selling a $10 euphyllia for $700-$1000. That's simply opportunists taking advantage of the situation with well thought out marketing. Maybe "well thought out" is giving too much credit.
My LFS is, something like 13 growout tanks. Look at what WWC just opened for a coral farm. You think that’s cheap? You think those inputs, along with a still smaller supply doesn’t affect the prices? It pretty clearly does. It’s basic economics, your opinion aside.
Again, your opinion doesn’t jive with basic economics. Supply tanked. Prices rose. They naturally find a point to settle on as the new equilibrium. Sure, hobbyists and businesses can undercut each other. But as I said, anyone growing out for profit has much higher costs than wild harvest or even mariculture.
I'd think the indo corals we loved would be available thru fellow hobbyists and frags. I just dont understand why the need for crazy greedy prices
You can dislike the price jump, that's fine. There are a lot of theories in economics that can be disagreed with. Supply and Demand is basic enough that you really can't. No matter how hard you try.you're justifying a jump from $10 to $1000 is due to a high demand because of a low supply. I disagree.
There are more than just gold torches in the world, I'm really not sure why you're basing this entire thread around gold torches. I've seen estimates that Fiji and Indo combined supplied anywhere from 70-90% of all coral for the hobby. It is impossible NOT to see price increases due to the loss of that supply. Focusing on gold torch, since that seems to be the thing, they were already in high demand. And commanded a higher price. So the response to the drastic cut in supply is higher prices. You've stated earlier there is no shortage of indo euphyillia, but I haven't seen any details backing that up. You shut down all wild and mariculture exports of them from the source, there is now less, thus shortage.It may not be your view, but I would argue that it was the wrong approach to expand businesses. That's just going to increase the price of an already bloated economy. The fact that marketing deemed these corals expensive was probably the reason why those stores decided to invest in expansion (I hope that's not the only reason).
Still not understanding how you think stores are basing expansions into aquaculture based on a single coral.pray that those that stay will pay $2k for a single head of brown... I mean gold torch.
I mean you're trying to, but doesn't make it right. I've already admitted that some of the price came from marketing, it always has. But brightly colored corals will always command higher prices than less colorful ones, its not that surprising. To flat out state the indo ban didn't cause higher prices through supply constraints, but the marketing based on the ban did is a ridiculous statement.Ahh, but prices rose because of a mindset of, "You want what you can't have". I'm not discussing economics, I'm talking about marketing
Once again assuming expansion based on a single coral is completely nonsensical. The ban greatly limited the supply of all coral types, as even discussed in this thread.But on the topic of supply and demand, a hobbyist will grow xx heads of torch and give away 30% of them, then they grow xx and pass it along, eventually the market will be flooded and the supply goes up demand goes down, (there's nothing complicated with growing euphylia) we eventually go back to throwing the stuff away because you can't give it away. These businesses that expanded can't match those prices. To think that a long term solution is going to fix a short term problem of high demand is going to make these companies regret expanding in the first place because of a false premise that they are going to continue to command top dollar. It's only a matter of time that hobbyist equalize the gap. In my view, t's not sustainable for a business to expand solely to fill a gap that they can't turn a profit long term, they're going to be stuck in the red just on overhead alone.
Are you just making up numbers? I have been buying coral for a long time - and Except for a very small piece - I have not seen euphyllia for $10 - nor in any store I've been in this area have I seen one for $800 or $1000..I don't understand what you're saying. You say that my assumption of you is wrong, but you're justifying a jump from $10 to $1000 is due to a high demand because of a low supply. I disagree.
It may not be your view, but I would argue that it was the wrong approach to expand businesses. That's just going to increase the price of an already bloated economy. The fact that marketing deemed these corals expensive was probably the reason why those stores decided to invest in expansion (I hope that's not the only reason). So they will make more money to offset the cost, push hobbyist out of an already niche market and pray that those that stay will pay $2k for a single head of brown... I mean gold torch.
You're taking things literally trying to grasp at straws, the torch was simply an example. I love how people try to explain supply and demand as if that's the only variable.
Marketing is ruining this small community with false truths.