Why don't my corals grow or use major elements?

ReefSlice

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Trying this one more time, 3rd time I'm trying to solve this over 2 years. I have had a 40b set up for 3 years, lit by 2 kessil a350w's (50% white 90% blue), 2 jebao pp8s for flow, and bubble magus skimmer, barebottom tank. This tank has never grown coral or coralline. I keep up with 15% weekly water changes, although I have tried going longer with bad effects. I even test sometimes daily. I cannot figure out what is wrong with this tank. I'm about to tear it down to start a new build, but I want to solve this problem before I move on to avoid the same problem in my new tank. I have about 10 sps frags from 1" frags to mini colonies, they all paled out within a few months of introduction, lost PE and most never grow a millimeter, some encrust a tiny bit and then halt. And all of these have been in for over a year. Even zoas get pale color, and only one frag of zoas grows maybe a new polyp a month, others not at all in over a year, some close to 2.
I use Ro/di with 0 tds, red sea blue bucket salt and parameters are alk 8.2, calcium 420, mg 1340, po4 .04, no3 10-20. All stay consistent with not much hassle, as my coral use NO elements. My alk will drop by maximum .1 in a day (8.2 to 8.1). I dose 3-7 ml 2 part every few days... Usually don't even need to dose anything but alk. I even sent in an icp to ATI and nothing popped up out of the ordinary, just slightly low iodine.
The tank only has 2 clownfish, but I get a decent amount of hair algae on my overflow and sporadic cyano blooms. I feed LRS reef frenzy 1x a day. Have tried acropower, reef roids etc with no improvement. Once in a while I will get a few specks of coralline, and it dies back shortly after.
Can anyone help?! I'm so confused with this tank and don't want my new tank to end up the same way...
 

Deftones2015

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Trying this one more time, 3rd time I'm trying to solve this over 2 years. I have had a 40b set up for 3 years, lit by 2 kessil a350w's (50% white 90% blue), 2 jebao pp8s for flow, and bubble magus skimmer, barebottom tank. This tank has never grown coral or coralline. I keep up with 15% weekly water changes, although I have tried going longer with bad effects. I even test sometimes daily. I cannot figure out what is wrong with this tank. I'm about to tear it down to start a new build, but I want to solve this problem before I move on to avoid the same problem in my new tank. I have about 10 sps frags from 1" frags to mini colonies, they all paled out within a few months of introduction, lost PE and most never grow a millimeter, some encrust a tiny bit and then halt. And all of these have been in for over a year. Even zoas get pale color, and only one frag of zoas grows maybe a new polyp a month, others not at all in over a year, some close to 2.
I use Ro/di with 0 tds, red sea blue bucket salt and parameters are alk 8.2, calcium 420, mg 1340, po4 .04, no3 10-20. All stay consistent with not much hassle, as my coral use NO elements. My alk will drop by maximum .1 in a day (8.2 to 8.1). I dose 3-7 ml 2 part every few days... Usually don't even need to dose anything but alk. I even sent in an icp to ATI and nothing popped up out of the ordinary, just slightly low iodine.
The tank only has 2 clownfish, but I get a decent amount of hair algae on my overflow and sporadic cyano blooms. I feed LRS reef frenzy 1x a day. Have tried acropower, reef roids etc with no improvement. Once in a while I will get a few specks of coralline, and it dies back shortly after.
Can anyone help?! I'm so confused with this tank and don't want my new tank to end up the same way...

Have you tried dialing down your lights? I know in the past I've had sps and Coraline wash out from too much light. I went from a cheap 4 bulb fixture to an ATI 6 bulb and had quite a few issues with that. I'm pretty new to LEDs but I have mine dialed down and everything's happy.
 
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ReefSlice

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Have you tried dialing down your lights? I know in the past I've had sps and Coraline wash out from too much light. I went from a cheap 4 bulb fixture to an ATI 6 bulb and had quite a few issues with that. I'm pretty new to LEDs but I have mine dialed down and everything's happy.
I have, I've tried higher, lower, and then just settled in the middle because it made 0 difference.. I don't have access to a par meter so I don't know exact numbers.
 
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Probable that your lightning is too weak. I'd ramp the white and blue both up to 100%. Run the light for 12-14 hours per day on a timer. Also, check your PH, you don't have it listed.
I tried that and they bleached even worse. Almost seems like starving corals even though I have 10-20 nitrates, decent po4 and algae. I don't have a good ph probe so it's hard to get a good reading. I did test using API and only got 7.8 with lights on but not sure how much I trust that.
 

Deftones2015

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Bouncingsoul is more than likely correct.

This is a review I found on the kessils.
After using these LEDS for 8 months I have a pretty good understanding of these LEDs. I would first like to say that they look beautiful over a tank and the shimmer effect is beautiful. They grew the small amount of Zoa's softies, LPS and low light SPS coral I have in my tank moderately. However I struggled to achieve any growth in my SPS coral. In reefing its hard to nail down a specific problem due to so many variables, but I will say that once supplemented T5 to my lights using a hybrid my SPS started growing.

Edit: but your having problems worth zoas as well, so I'm not sure.

Maybe sending water out to get tested would be your best bet.
 
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That's precisely why I just ordered an 8x80w ATI fixture for my new 150. I can't help but think it's the lights, as I have had multiple successful reefs, but none used LED. I also didn't care for those tanks nearly as much or spend nearly as much time on them, so it is frustrating. I'm ready to have a light that I just flip on and know I've got it right again. Just strange because I have seen tanks do well with these lights.
Just looking for anything I may have overlooked.
 
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I had the same problem with SPS for awhile in my last 45g SPS tank - it was because my nitrates and phosphates were too low. I ran GFO and carbon dosed because I bought into the "SPS need pristine water" B.S. :)

You say you've measured your NO3/PO4 and they're 10-20ppm / .04 ppm respectively, are your test kits expired? If you're struggling to grow coraline something with nutrition might be the cause of your issues.

Also, see if you can borrow a PAR meter from a LFS or from Bulk Reef Supply. They rent them out too. I would never adjust anything without being able to measure it. A350W put out a lot of light so I doubt you're not giving them enough - coraline likes lower light so if anything I'd say you're giving your tank too much for a 40 breeder and the strength you listed (50% white 90% blue). How high off of the water are your LEDs?
 
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Lights are 12-14" off the water, higher than most. And I use good tests, nyos for nitrate, ULR Hanna for po4. I even dose po4 daily for the last 3 months to keep it up a bit higher, got a tiny bit of color in some things but growth has completely stalled on whole tank.
Test kits never go bad because I test daily to try and solve this nightmare of a tank! ;)
 

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My tanks doing great with LEDs but as I said, I have mine dialed down to 60% blues and 30% whites during the full ramp.

Another thing to remember is, make 1 change at a time so you know what really helped or didn't help and make sure to give the said change time to work. Nothing happens fast unfortunately so make sure to give it plenty of time before trying something different.
 

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Lights are 12-14" off the water, higher than most. And I use good tests, nyos for nitrate, ULR Hanna for po4. I even dose po4 daily for the last 3 months to keep it up a bit higher, got a tiny bit of color in some things but growth has completely stalled on whole tank.
Test kits never go bad because I test daily to try and solve this nightmare of a tank! ;)

My lights are 28" off of the water, I think a majority of the places that grow out coral using LEDs also have them 2'+ off of the surface. 12" isn't terribly high off of the surface. :)

My tanks doing great with LEDs but as I said, I have mine dialed down to 60% blues and 30% whites during the full ramp.

Another thing to remember is, make 1 change at a time so you know what really helped or didn't help and make sure to give the said change time to work. Nothing happens fast unfortunately so make sure to give it plenty of time before trying something different.

I'd agree. Keep up your feedings and everything else, but try turning down your lights by half to see if you start growing coraline. With your SPS bleaching out, it's either too much light, or no NO3/PO4. Since you're confident in your tested numbers, it has to be your light. If you start seeing coraline growth in a few weeks, you might have found your issue.
 

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Trying this one more time, 3rd time I'm trying to solve this over 2 years. I have had a 40b set up for 3 years, lit by 2 kessil a350w's (50% white 90% blue), 2 jebao pp8s for flow, and bubble magus skimmer, barebottom tank. This tank has never grown coral or coralline. I keep up with 15% weekly water changes, although I have tried going longer with bad effects. I even test sometimes daily. I cannot figure out what is wrong with this tank. I'm about to tear it down to start a new build, but I want to solve this problem before I move on to avoid the same problem in my new tank. I have about 10 sps frags from 1" frags to mini colonies, they all paled out within a few months of introduction, lost PE and most never grow a millimeter, some encrust a tiny bit and then halt. And all of these have been in for over a year. Even zoas get pale color, and only one frag of zoas grows maybe a new polyp a month, others not at all in over a year, some close to 2.
I use Ro/di with 0 tds, red sea blue bucket salt and parameters are alk 8.2, calcium 420, mg 1340, po4 .04, no3 10-20. All stay consistent with not much hassle, as my coral use NO elements. My alk will drop by maximum .1 in a day (8.2 to 8.1). I dose 3-7 ml 2 part every few days... Usually don't even need to dose anything but alk. I even sent in an icp to ATI and nothing popped up out of the ordinary, just slightly low iodine.
The tank only has 2 clownfish, but I get a decent amount of hair algae on my overflow and sporadic cyano blooms. I feed LRS reef frenzy 1x a day. Have tried acropower, reef roids etc with no improvement. Once in a while I will get a few specks of coralline, and it dies back shortly after.
Can anyone help?! I'm so confused with this tank and don't want my new tank to end up the same way...
Just to let you know, I have a kessil a350 on my invert quarantine tank. I get about 200 PAR on the bottom of a 10 gallon tank with both channels cranked to 100% directly under the light. I use an apogee 510 model to measure. Also, my light is very close, about 4 inches, from the water level. I’m not usually on this side, but I’d guess you don’t have enough par for sps. However that does not explain your lack of coralline growth.
 

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Kessil is not a powerhouse of a light - far from it. You cannot compare other types of LED to these.

Nitrate at 10-20 is going to be a problem for coralline and some acropora. Most MBP&S and some acropora are going to be OK with this.

Did you start with dry/dead rock? If so, then it might be just about now that the stuff is ready to contribute.
 
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My lights are 28" off of the water, I think a majority of the places that grow out coral using LEDs also have them 2'+ off of the surface. 12" isn't terribly high off of the surface. :)



I'd agree. Keep up your feedings and everything else, but try turning down your lights by half to see if you start growing coraline. With your SPS bleaching out, it's either too much light, or no NO3/PO4. Since you're confident in your tested numbers, it has to be your light. If you start seeing coraline growth in a few weeks, you might have found your issue.
I wish but I turned them down to 30% white 40-50% blue for months and same old tank, except zoas stretched for light like crazy. I take it very slow too, giving each change 2-3 months before trying something else. Kessil recommends 8-10" I believe, mine are as high as they can go using the gooseneck and pivot fittings to make the arms longer.
I did start with mostly dry rock, but 40% was established rock from my old tank, covered in coralline. It all died off years ago after being covered in algae. I have also tried nopox to get nitrates down. I successfully kept my levels at ulns for months, and my corals were worse off, and a lot of them died. I now keep my nutrients a little higher in hopes of coloring up my corals, even my "easy" softies, but they are hating life either way.
 

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Any trouble keeping invertebrates like snails alive?

Agree with JDA on nitrates being a contributing factor with the sps, but it sounds like everything you are trying is dying. I almost want to tell you to test for copper and/or get a full water analysis done to check for heavy metals.
 

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Any trouble keeping invertebrates like snails alive?

Agree with JDA on nitrates being a contributing factor with the sps, but it sounds like everything you are trying is dying. I almost want to tell you to test for copper and/or get a full water analysis done to check for heavy metals.

I agree, the best course of action would be to send out for a test so you know 100% what your params are and if you have any metals causing issues.

If that comes back fine, maybe look into renting a par meter to see what your par levels are. If they're not high enough, I would consider buying a different light. My next fixture will be either a T5 fixture or a T5 led combo fixture.

Really sucks that you've been dealing with this for 2 years but at least you have the patience and drive to push through to find the problem.
 

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He said that he sent an ICP to ATI.... clear except for lower Iodine. I thought the same thing until I reread.

I would do a few more water changes and see if you can get that N under 5. After 2 years, the tank should be able to handle nitrate by now. I would turn the lights up or see if you can borrow a 4/6 bulb T5 unit (do you have a helpful local club) and eliminate the light alltogether. I think that the N is keeping the coralline from growing and the pair of Kessils is not enough light.

Do you have a photo? Sometimes this helps folks see something.
 

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He said that he sent an ICP to ATI.... clear except for lower Iodine. I thought the same thing until I reread.

I would do a few more water changes and see if you can get that N under 5. After 2 years, the tank should be able to handle nitrate by now. I would turn the lights up or see if you can borrow a 4/6 bulb T5 unit (do you have a helpful local club) and eliminate the light alltogether. I think that the N is keeping the coralline from growing and the pair of Kessils is not enough light.

Do you have a photo? Sometimes this helps folks see something.

Thanks. Missed that as well, reading on my phone.
 

Bouncingsoul39

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It sounds like you've given up or think there is some magic thing happening that cannot be found out. Believe me, there is a solution here, just needs to be figured out and most likely it is related to the important things corals need to thrive: good water params and light. You already said you had the ICP test done and it was fine so then most likely it's the light source.

Corals are sensitive to changes in light intensity, you need to slowly ramp up your lighting over several weeks. The last time you ramped up and got bleaching, did you slowly ramp up over several weeeks? Probably, not. Eventually they should be at 100%. You could ramp them to 100% and then add T5 supplement and that would be even better. First thing I would do is run a 12 hour photoperiod on a timer and start ramping them up. Or you could switch to a better light like a SB Reef black box or similar and start at a low % and slowly ramp up. Agreed with JDA that you should do a few water changes to bring down the nitrates, and also cut back on the feeding to a very small amount every other day.
 
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ReefSlice

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Yes ICP was clear, and I'll restate I did have my nitrates at 0-5 for a long time, I had no algae at all, no film on glass, and the corals looked even worse. People run much higher nitrates than 20 and have plenty of growth, especially in a tank this old. I just can't see nitrate being my problem as I've had it everywhere on the scale (for 3+ months at each level to observe) and it hasn't helped a bit. Right now it is at 10, and if it was a high nutrient issue why would my corals become pale like they're starving? I also have to dose Po4 daily to keep it above 0.
I guess I'll give the light's a go one last time, I've gone up and down with them so many times I just can't see it making a difference. And when I changed the lights, I did NOT go straight up to 100... I research everything I do extensively and how I did it was blues up 5% a week, then whites up 5% the next (alternating). I went from 40-50% blue and 15-25% white all the way up to 100% blue 80% white with some several week breaks in between and my corals just looked the same. Just can't get these things to grow coral for me!
I appreciate all the suggestions! I've basically just made it an experiment tank for the last month of its life and am willing to give anything a go that I haven't already tried. In a few months, once the 150 is well cycled (50% TBS rock, T5 lights, reefflakes sandbed, opposite of this tank), I will be fragging away what I can salvage from this tank and moving it over to the 150 to start anew.
 

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