Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

[atoll]

Fear of failure, fear of peer criticism and pressure, fear of the unconventional. If people never put them to.one side and thought is there a better way we would still have dead bleached coral and just a handful of fish.

I remember being told a hell would let loose if I ever put 2 fish of the same species or even similar together. I spawned dwarf angles while being told that. Well that's not true I didn't I just provided the means for them. Same with 6 line wrasse, damsels royal grammas and of course clowns. In fact try and stop them.

My fish were spawning over 30 years ago and people were amazed I never QTd and my fish never got sick or died from disease. I got called everything from lucky to a lair in so many words. Proved them all wrong of course.

People do find it hard to let go and think outside the box esp when those with ologies preach thou shall not all the time and if they do otherwise then they are heading for disaster with no QT facilities.

 

[brandon429]

Why do we accept truths without work threads as proof? There's no denying the no qt crew have no work pattern threads to post, they have their own reefs. Unable to transmit the ability in a measurable percentage

Still no method on file to help dry rock reefers, left out in the cold. The best working method we have backed by actual work threads labeled bad with no work thread replacements on file.

Having no patterned work threads for a claim is safe zoning

That's no slight to Paul's approach, it's working long term. Merely interested in seeing which set of steps a dry rocker should be taking. Qt and fallow present clear inspectable steps in work threads and it's what rules the actual practice going on where fish disease work has no safe zone

 

[HuduVudu]

Why do we accept truths without work threads as proof?

Because human beings are designed for risk.

Still no method on file to help dry rock reefers, left out in the cold.

Because this method doesn't work long term, anymore than it's analog and parent the dead coral skeleton with UG and crushed coral aquarium. You think this method is new. It is actually the oldest method in the hobby.

 

[brandon429]

If I linked this thread to a new reefer what actions can they take away into their new reef to have less disease?

 

[HuduVudu]

If I linked this thread to a new reefer what actions can they take away into their new reef to have less disease?

Follow build threads of reefers that follow this method.

One very important thing that I think that you are missing is that the attitude of the new hobbyist. You assume that they want to be successfull at any cost. This is patently false. All of the information is available to people that want to know.

I am a relatively new student to Spanish. All of the same factors are at play there as here. The nine months I followed the comman knowledge of buying all of the programs. Guess what ... they don't work. By simply following them I found this out. First I had to decide if I really wanted to put the time and effort into really learning Spanish. I did. As a student, I was ready, my teacher appeared. I have been making great progress since.

This same thing also happened when I tried to learn to sing. The same results 9 months in I had to decide if I wanted to move forward. I didn't. I put singing and music into the dustbin of my life.

Never forget it takes two to tango.

 

[atoll]

If I linked this thread to a new reefer what actions can they take away into their new reef to have less disease?

You would be linking the wrong thread.

 

[Subsea]

This is totally available to anyone with a wallet (and it doesn't have to be a very large wallet). There are so many sources to get gunk from the ocean available to us it isn't funny. You just have to have an open mind to doing it. When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

I am just starting my newer tank. My plan is to seed with rock and biology from my old tank (6 years old), Galveston sand and what ever interesting rocks I can find there, Tampa Bay Saltwater live rock and Indo Pacific Sea Farms stuff that interests me. If there is a will there is a way, unfortunately most don't have the will because of FUD.

I enjoyed collection trips in Galveston Bay when setting up first marine tank n 1971. I still do collection on Mustang Island in early Spring for Peppermint Shrimp and neat stuff floating in Sargassum Seaweed.
When John Tullock wrote ”The Natural Reef Aquarium” he made it very clear on how to operate a living ecosystem with this statement, “Less technology & More biology”.

What is FUD?

 

[Subsea]

@HuduVudu
Unfortunately, you are correct about FUD.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt


Description
Description
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is a disinformation strategy used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling, cults, and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear. Wikipedia

 

[Subsea]

@HuduVudu
“I am just starting my newer tank. My plan is to seed with rock and biology from my old tank (6 years old), Galveston sand and what ever interesting rocks I can find there, Tampa Bay Saltwater live rock and Indo Pacific Sea Farms stuff that interests me. If there is a will there is a way, unfortunately most don't have the will because of FUD.”

My first tank in 1971 was a Galveston Bay biotheme. For several years, the center piece of that tank was a live oyster cluster with numerous fan worms & barnacles.

 

[robbyg]

Americans didn't used to be so obese, either. Was there some significant change to the dietary guidelines in the 70s that would've affected kids' meals in school? Maybe more towards grains?

Yeah, in the 70s there was about one tenth of the fast food as there is now and we got reasonable portions of food. For those younger guys on the forum I can tell you exactly when I think Americans started to get fat. It was when this wildly popular advertisement came out in 1984.



Prior to this advert restaurants and fast food joints would serve a reasonable portion of food on your plate. After this commercial it was like a War for who could serve the biggest Hamburger, who had the largest Pizza and restaurants started to put so much food on your plate that you often felt ill after eating it. Another advertisement not long after went after the size of the Soda cups and well I don't need to tell you that they went from like 8 and 16 oz to what seems like half a gallon of Soda.

 

[Paul B]

Because this method doesn't work long term, anymore than it's analog and parent the dead coral skeleton with UG and crushed coral aquarium. You think this method is new. It is actually the oldest method in the hobby.

I started my tank with dead coral that I collected myself in the Caribbean and Hawaii and bleached it myself in the hotel room. My gravel was, and still is dolomite over an undergravel filter. That tank is still running but if I post something saying a reverse undergravel filter is the best thing since slice bread i would be laughed off this forum.

It doesn't even matter that it is fifty years old, it just doesn't sound right and we will all hear about it being a "nitrate factory" even though virtually no one used one the way I suggest.

In my book I wrote a chapter on exactly how I would start a new tank from scratch using dry rock and a reverse undergravel filter. I also recommend (which even surprises me) quarantining with copper for 10 days or two weeks.

I hate quarantine but I also hate new tanks with new water and dry rocks so that is the absolute time I would quarantine anything because as I keep saying, there is no way to keep a fish healthy in a new tank with new ASW and dry rocks.

But I only recommend that for a very new tank like that. If you use live rock I would not recommend that course of action.

I don't expect anyone to read my book just for this but I have been writing this stuff for years.


As to why people are more obese now as compared to the 70s thats easy. Cell phones and computers.

When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s we were constantly outside playing. There was nothing inside except black and white TV and only 6 stations. The TV would go off at night. I mean literally go off because there was nothing on except a little white dot. After the last show which I think was the "Tonight Show". the station would say good night and the screen would go black.

In the winter we hung out constantly at the frozen lake and we ice skated all day until it got dark.
In the summer we went fishing and we had to either walk or bicycle to a fishing place 10 miles away.
We went swimming, we played stick ball, hand ball, foot ball, any kind of ball.

Then when I got a little older I did side jobs almost every day to make money because you had to make your own money. There was no "Hey Mom let me have a quarter". I would have just gotten a snide look and maybe a smack across my face. So I shoveled snow, raked leaves, painted houses, pulled weeds, waxed cars, planted trees etc.

I always had money and I always had enough exercise. You walked down the street in the 60s and you saw girls playing jump rope all over the place. School yards were full of kids running around.

Today I see kids texting and most of them are overweight, out of shape and have zero street smarts.

 

[atoll]

Same here in the UK of course Paul except we only had the BBC thenmlater the ITV stations now we have hundreds mainly showing rubbish and pushing fast food like burgers.

We went out in the morning and often never came home to it started getting dark. We went all over the place walking or if lucky enough on bicycles often made from bits of other old bicycles.

We would go the local park play on the swings and play football all day. For lunch we may have had a few sandwiches bread and butter with jam in the middle and a bottle of water to wash them down with.

We played in bombed out houses, my grandmothers house was bombed in WW2 along with many others, we played in the rubble of them. The list goes on but there were no fat people or very few in fact we had rationing in the 50s with little real food.

The kids today don't know they are born neither do their parents. Seems to me grandparents buy their grandchildren lots of things now.

 

[HuduVudu]

That tank is still running but if I post something saying a reverse undergravel filter is the best thing since slice bread i would be laughed off this forum.

I wish that there was a different name for the reverse UG. It is so far different in function than a UG as to be a different animal all together. Plus you seem to run yours slow. Back in the day it was a big deal to replace airstones with lift pumps to move water faster through the bed.

 

[Subsea]

I wish that there was a different name for the reverse UG. It is so far different in function than a UG as to be a different animal all together. Plus you seem to run yours slow. Back in the day it was a big deal to replace airstones with lift pumps to move water faster through the bed.

So many different ways. @Lasse pumps Skimmate into plenum of his RFUG filter.

 

[Paul B]

We went all over the place walking or if lucky enough on bicycles often made from bits of other old bicycles.

LOL, I thought I was the only one. I also built my bicycles from parts of old bikes I found in lots or dumps. The tires had tape around them. My Dad died when I was 10 so there was no money for bicycles. I got my first new bike a year or so after I got married and my wife bought it for me. :)

I am sure you guys also made what we called "Soap Box racers" It was a 2 x4 with metal roller skates on each end and a big wooden box nailed to the thing. We went down hills with it which was scary because it barely steered.

In the snow we rarely had sleds so we found a car hood from an abandoned car and went down the hill on that. Dragging it back up was hard and it too a bunch of guys to do it.

We wore sneakers which were very poorly made so the soles would wear out quickly. When that happened I went to an old abandoned house and ripped up the flooring which was linoleum and I put a piece of it in my shoe.

I repaired all my shoes with that until my foot came through. Then i inherited my brothers shoes. :cool:

WE used that linoleum in our "Zip Guns" which shot using a rubber band.
We made many of our toys like sling shots, swords, arrows, knives etc.

We also usually had a rope swing in a lot someplace or dug underground "forts".

Whatever we did, getting fat was hard to do. :D

 

[Paul B]

I wish that there was a different name for the reverse UG. It is so far different in function than a UG as to be a different animal all together. Plus you seem to run yours slow. Back in the day it was a big deal to replace airstones with lift pumps to move water faster through the bed.

I found out pretty quickly that you had to run it very slow. Detritus would disintegrate eventually but you want it to disappear faster than it accumulated or the thing would clog and you ended up with a DSB. :oops:

 

[atoll]

Your soap boxes were our steering carts made from a plank of wood and pram wheels your push chair? Small at front bigger at the rear. We were canvast plimpsoles we called them.or slimply pumps your gym shoes. We had gas lamps to which we put a rope on to use as a swing. Lots of made up games from hopscotch to tick and so many others.

 

[atoll]

Here ya go kids swinging on an old lamp post.

 

[Paul B]

I will trump that with a Sherman tank in a tank :p

Ha. I am working on that.

 

[Subsea]

Cross talk between bacteria and macro.

Recently, I have seen several threads advocating sterilizing seaweed with a gamete of harsh chemicals, then a 72 day quarantine. Sanitize & sterilize are two different things. To sanitize Chaetomorphy, soak in fresh water for 5 minutes. This is why you don’t want to sterilize...

www.reef2reef.com

@Paul B
I recently started a thread about biofilms on macro surfaces. In doing some research on intensive mariculture, I find that biofilm is at the heart of nutrition regime.

(PDF) Biofilm in aquaculture production

PDF | A biofilm is an assemblage of microbial cells which is irreversibly associated with a surface and enclosed in a matrix of primarily polysaccharide... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

.

For certain I still feed live bivalves, however I thought that smart bacteria could be part of a healthy diet along with gut bacteria.
Patrick


With respect to our reef tanks, this stuff sounds like nutrition on steroids and a little bit of Avatar:
Quorum sensing molecules/bioactive molecules that protect host against harmful entities. Considering the holistic nature of the Coral Holobiont I have always embraced biology over technology. With this scientific paper we are told that biochemistry is so much more complicated than “rocket science” that it takes multi disciplines of science (ecological, microbial and biochemical) to understand the “intelligent design” of one part of Coral Holobiont.

Seaweed–microbial interactions: key functions of seaweed-associated bacteria

We have introduced a new topic in this area and suggested future research to understand seaweed-bacteria interactions in greater detail.

academic.oup.com

[Bacterial communities belonging to the phyla Proteobacteria and Firmicutes are generally the most abundant on seaweed surfaces. Associated bacterial communities produce plant growth-promoting substances, quorum sensing signalling molecules, bioactive compounds and other effective molecules that are responsible for normal morphology, development and growth of seaweeds. Also, bioactive molecules of associated bacteria determine the presence of other bacterial strains on seaweeds and protect the host from harmful entities present in the pelagic realm. The ecological functions of cross-domain signalling between seaweeds and bacteria have been reported as liberation of carpospores in the red seaweeds and settlement of zoospores in the green seaweeds. In the present review, the role of extracellular polymeric substances in growth and settlement of seaweeds spores is also highlighted. To elucidate the functional roles of associated bacteria and the molecular mechanisms underlying reported ecological phenomena in seaweeds requires a combined ecological, microbiological and biochemical approach.]