Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

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Paul B

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I hate it when Atoll beats me, I am going to see if I can get an Oldsmobile to fit. I may have to remove the rear view mirror and maybe the left front tire. ;Bucktooth
 

atoll

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Here's a Cadillac for you.
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Paul B

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As you know I am hopelessly against qt and this is one of the main reasons. It totally stresses the fish and stress "causes" disease in fish. It affects Humans also but not to the effect as a fish.
We have a few options. We can leave, get divorced, quit out job, remove a tattoo of our old girlfriend who looks like a flounder, get a different car, buy a new parakeet, move to Tunisia, set up a tank that only has mud skippers in it etc.

Fish don't have many of those options, especially in quarantine. They swim around thinking things like, Wow, look at the 3/4" PVC elbow. I wonder if they got that in Home Depot or Loews. The Bar code is still on it and I can barely see printed under it, "Made in China".

Oh look! there is another one facing the opposite way. Now I can swim into one and circle around to the other one, what fun!!!
What is that I smell? Smells like old pennies and it is making me itchy. Oh No, I am getting itchy. I am doomed!!

OMG, here comes that Human again. Grrreat, he is sprinkling some of that freeze dried cardboard in here like I am supposed to eat it. I will eat that when he does.
 

Paulie069

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As you know I am hopelessly against qt and this is one of the main reasons. It totally stresses the fish and stress "causes" disease in fish. It affects Humans also but not to the effect as a fish.
We have a few options. We can leave, get divorced, quit out job, remove a tattoo of our old girlfriend who looks like a flounder, get a different car, buy a new parakeet, move to Tunisia, set up a tank that only has mud skippers in it etc.

Fish don't have many of those options, especially in quarantine. They swim around thinking things like, Wow, look at the 3/4" PVC elbow. I wonder if they got that in Home Depot or Loews. The Bar code is still on it and I can barely see printed under it, "Made in China".

Oh look! there is another one facing the opposite way. Now I can swim into one and circle around to the other one, what fun!!!
What is that I smell? Smells like old pennies and it is making me itchy. Oh No, I am getting itchy. I am doomed!!

OMG, here comes that Human again. Grrreat, he is sprinkling some of that freeze dried cardboard in here like I am supposed to eat it. I will eat that when he does.
Love the way you make ur point,, educational and humorous
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Paul I thought of a decent mid ground see if you agree


qt and fallow is required for best % retention of fish in systems that don’t have access to natural supports and diversity

that’s the claim anyway, is debatable

we need proof threads as long as this actual thread here though in order to know if it’s a true assumption or not. Humblefish has developed a very high % retention system for these commoner systems, so his methods self earned top billing in work forums for disease. The market itself elevated his work by sheer adoption, not because of sheer fails.

in a humblefish thread, specific orders of ops exist for copy and people feed back 75% happy with results per my read, highest % retention we can see to read for the synthetic reefs.


we need a work thread action set where people setup petco reefs and raise up that currently horrible fish life retention rate


work threads are on file to draw a 75% happy reefer outcome percentage but there isn’t another method competing. Dosing bottled preps to prevent disease has a very low retention % as most fish still die after the retail additive didn’t stop disease progress


clearly in natural water, mud refreshed pod dosed systems fed prime feed you can garner a high % retention level


but something has to be there for reefs in San Antonio, for example, and that is where the crossover problems occur

I noticed in the 1985 reefs article, nobody had dinos or rampant fish diseases like today


fish disease is something we can chart loosely by watching the work thread patterns in any reef forum fish disease area, we see the recurring themes. theyre using synthetic setups mostly, but those outnumber naturally-sourced reefs so to deny all qt and fallow would be shortchanging obvious patterns just like we had no right to assume natural systems from a strong artist wouldn’t work without qt and fallow


you need to branch out the method into ways and means that reduce posting patterns in synthetic tanks, that’s the next breakthrough the hobby needs and when it’s attained we can all watch the thread patterns, retention % in the work forums nobody will have to battle up and down to make a point.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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classic work thread growing. Op is heading where the highest % retention he can source to read shows to go


*someone could also post a totally opposite direction for him to take, we chart the outcome.
 

Paulie069

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classic work thread growing. Op is heading where the highest % retention he can source to read shows to go


*someone could also post a totally opposite direction for him to take, we chart the outcome.
If you’ve been following Paul’s thread and actually had an open mind plus pay attention to what he says then you would realize all his opinions and findings are based on the fact he has maintained a healthy Natural environment for,, 50yrs,,,
If that’s not enough for you to figure out that he just might be correct in his findings
I mean how old is your chemical tank I’m sure not 50 years old. I feel you shouldn’t try and push 3 paragraphs of others opinions until you have the success rate Paul.B. has had. Maybe form your own thoughts on this and not something you read in a thread or old book. We all think we can play Mother Nature with these chemicals and recreate her environment. No we can’t but staying as natural as possible might be the answer. Idk I’m still learning from my own mistakes ,, my tank is only 8 months old and it’s mixed like crazy. Coral fish, big hermit crabs, and over 30 Seahorses, and my tank looks great after I was told countless times from other reefers it won’t work you can’t do that. Well not only did I do it I have been successful SO FAR,, also I’ve proven you can have nice coral in cooler temperatures,, while the average temp people keep their tanks is 76-80 degrees I’ve kept my tank at 72-73 from day one after everyone told me it wouldn’t work. Well it does, I also only use 100% ocean water for my tank and I feel it’s a big reason I’m having success IDK I’m no pro but believe in being as close to all natural as possible is something to consider
8 months old

C974B059-3B5D-4DD5-8330-7F725050BDDB.jpeg AD467A56-42C6-43EB-8881-D5E1D1402FD8.jpeg
 
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Paul B

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Good Morning Brandon :)
My last post was not to "battle" anything. It was more of a joke that just came to me like most things do. My good friend Humblefish has a 75% likability record with results as you said. But remember Humble only deals with sick fish all the time.

The "meat" of his method is "curing" sick fish and he is good at it. But the fish are getting sick. My thing is not curing fish as I feel a fish should never be sick in the first place so there is nothing to cure.
I obviously know how to accomplish that in my old tank but it was new at one time and full of diseases.

I realize most people today set up a tank with ASW and dry rock. Many only have those things and that is a shame because our fish don't care if that is the only thing we can do. They are stubborn and won't change their physiology to compensate for our shortcomings.

Fish in new tanks, especially set up like that will almost always have huge problems. The bacteria just isn't there in sufficient numbers and bottled bacteria is not the answer, I wish it was.

We can set up some test tanks like that to see if we can learn ways to mitigate those shortcomings but I think that may be futile.

I feel a huge boom to this hobby would be if someone, perhaps a collector would collect natural detritus or mulm from the sea that could be purchased by the pound or gallon to seed a new sterile tank.

Short of that, new, sterile tanks will always be in trouble.
I also think, especially with a new tank that there are to many "magic cures" for almost everything.
Cyano, hair algae, nitrate, ammonia, diatoms, flatworms etc. These things IMO offer a quick "cure" for a surmised problem that in 100% of the cases are natural, normal things that our tanks need to work through on their own.

I have been writing about this for decades and even wrote a book.

I myself am to old to start another tank and I don't have the room or time for it. But if someone wants to do that and write the findings, that would be great. Of course there will be many problems due to all the input it would have from thousands of hobbiests.

we need a work thread action set where people setup petco reefs and raise up that currently horrible fish life retention rate

I am going to think about this for a while because I think it may be a benefit to the hobby. I will try to figure out how a sterile tank could be started with as few problems as possible. I am not sure it can be done on the normal budget that many people here have but I will try. :cool:
 
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Paul B

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Good Morning Paulie. I think what Brandon is asking is for a way we can have clear instructions for setting up a healthy tank using todays methods which are dry rock and ASW. I know you and I wouldn't do that, but many people have to and that is what he is asking.

This will be very difficult and may be impossible to keep such a tank healthy unless we have access to naturally occurring bacteria, chamicals and algae from the sea. Now most people have to rely on the things found in a dealers tank and their fish are almost always sick or in horrible shape. Besides that, they are drugged.

This will not be easy.
 

atoll

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The longest I have had the same tank set up is about 7 years due to various reasons like moving house a few times and others reason. Tank wise I have had something like 13 in 39 years but often rock corals and fish would be transported over or I ran more than one tank.

Thing is in 30 plus of the last 39 years I have run my tanks along the same lines with what some people might say is amazing success but not me I don't consider my success amazing.

The tank I ran over 7 years was set up not dissimilar to the way Paul runs his, sheer coincidence as I never knew him 30 years ago. We do have some differences like I can't get mud. Like Paul my fish don't get sick and many spawn.

We are not alone as there are a few here in the UK who practice similar with others in Europe and of course North America.

Our methods are proven and we can theorize as to what makes them so successful but for now they are theories and am not sure what people would need to make them proven, scientific research? Few have the technology and expertise to prove such.

Whatever we can simply point to our aquariums, show pics and videos of them to point to our success with healthy fish and corals. It's hard to show diseased and dying fish when you don't have any.
20180409_203748.jpg
 

Subsea

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Good Morning Paulie. I think what Brandon is asking is for a way we can have clear instructions for setting up a healthy tank using todays methods which are dry rock and ASW. I know you and I wouldn't do that, but many people have to and that is what he is asking.

This will be very difficult and may be impossible to keep such a tank healthy unless we have access to naturally occurring bacteria, chamicals and algae from the sea. Now most people have to rely on the things found in a dealers tank and their fish are almost always sick or in horrible shape. Besides that, they are drugged.

This will not be easy.

Good morning Paul. I live high & dry in Austin, Tx. IndoPacificSeaFarms has mud & detrivores. Gulf Live rock has uncured live rock from 10 miles west of Tampa Bay. As well as Tampa Bay Saltwater. It is also very easy to get live mussels at seafood market.

 

HuduVudu

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I noticed in the 1985 reefs article, nobody had dinos or rampant fish diseases like today
In 1985 it was undergravel filters and dead coral skeletons, and plastic plants. The lift tubes where powered by airstones. The fish didn't get disease they just died. If you think today's death rate is bad it was even worse then. You can't imagine the mortality. I worked in a pet store/nursery in high school I saw it first hand.

In fact the tank in this picture was pretty typical.

I can't even believe I found this @Paul B
 
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HuduVudu

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you need to branch out the method into ways and means that reduce posting patterns in synthetic tanks,
The ways are antithetical to each other. There is no cross over. That is just the nature of the beast.

I like many have tried the sterile approach, and my understanding evolved past it. I think that you think that people that do "natural" systems don't know the benefits because they haven't tried it. While there may be some like that, I would argue most long term hobbyist went through the sterile method as a phase.

The allure of the sterile method is strong because it is motivated by fear, and as we have seen in the world fear is an awfully powerful motivator. That is why so many try the "natural" method and then scurry away at the first sign of danger.
 
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HuduVudu, I think that was written 11 years ago. Well before I started thinking about gut bacteria to eliminate fish diseases. I am also surprised you found it. :cool:
 

KrisReef

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Good morning

A few observations:
Nature doesn't work right. Things die there all the time.
A sterile environment can't reproduce.
I get sick when I am stressed, lots of people do.
Too much to know how to do it right, but everyone is mimicking nature with their tanks unless they are just bleaching their socks in the washing machine.

Oh, and I am a scientist.. so therefore I'm a scientist-in-theory. I have a degree but that doesn't prove that I know how to apply my knowledge.
Still, you can Trust me, I am a sigh un tisk!

And now for a useless Giphy to drive the point
giphy.gif


That's all settled now :)
 

HuduVudu

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This will be very difficult and may be impossible to keep such a tank healthy unless we have access to naturally occurring bacteria, chamicals and algae from the sea.
This is totally available to anyone with a wallet (and it doesn't have to be a very large wallet). There are so many sources to get gunk from the ocean available to us it isn't funny. You just have to have an open mind to doing it. When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

I am just starting my newer tank. My plan is to seed with rock and biology from my old tank (6 years old), Galveston sand and what ever interesting rocks I can find there, Tampa Bay Saltwater live rock and Indo Pacific Sea Farms stuff that interests me. If there is a will there is a way, unfortunately most don't have the will because of FUD.
 
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