Will I Ruin my Cycle? (Noob Question)

[brandon429]

the risk isn’t injury from ammonia, we’ve covered that with link proof

the risk is disease vectoring regardless of how someone cycles.


I directly linked here proof that fish-in cycles arent harming fish, this guy will lose his clowns to brooklynella though by March if he keeps adding unprepped fish into a tank fully ready to carry fish.

How to cycle my biocube

So I’ve had my biocube 32g set up for about a week now and I put live rock and live sand in there and used imagitarium water from the pet store what should I add to the water to build up the proper bacteria to add fish and when should I do my first water change and about what percentage should I...

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@Erin1971Texas I supposed you feel that fish was burned too is that correct, even though we have a passing ammonia test? No matter what, it was burned?

we can’t read that post, and then continue saying the fish was harmed. Look at the ammonia test included

old cycling science refuses any change at all, refuses to study any web patterns always on file, and digs in heels permanently. That’s why it’s termed old cycling science


one way to spot old cycling science is they will never use forum link examples of burnt fish, they just type that fish acting totally fine are burned, digging in heels. Symptomless burning of fish is the part and parcel of old cycling science. Speed cycling cannot exist to old cycling science advocates, even if Dr. Reef posts a pageslong searchable experiment using six donated seneye machines to prove it works. They ignore the updated findings, and continue to state the opposite.


even if I took time to link Dr. Reefs bottle bac study, it wouldn’t be factored by old cycling science peers, all fish will be marked as burned ~

 

[Tired]

No, that's why /you've/ termed it that. Let's be clear.

Cycling a tank with bottled bacteria /should/ instantly produce a tank that can support fish, provided the bottled bacteria is good quality. However, waiting a little while to let some stability establish and to get the very beginnings of the ecosystem going is a good idea, as there are reasons other than simple ammonia concerns to wait before adding fish. Surely you'd agree that a tank with the beginnings algae and microfauna established is better for fish than a tank of pure bare rock.

 

[brandon429]

I don’t post this stuff to rile up friends

it’s posted because I feel all pertinent initial fish loss examples are found in the disease forum, and I’m trying to get less fish loss in the hobby. I’m attempting to influence reef procedure in a way that reduces fish loss by studying and linking back to relevant patterns I feel can help us as a team.

 

[Tired]

"This won't kill the fish" is pretty far from "this is the best practice". Again: surely you'd agree that having the start of some biodiversity in an aquarium is good for the fish.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There's absolutely no harm in waiting to add fish until the tank is verified cycled. A tank that's had bottled bacteria added is /probably/ ready for fish, but "probably" isn't "definitely", and waiting gives time for things like the start of algae growth and a proper fish quarantine.

Like I said, I think people over complicate this, Talking and testing and worrying.
Me? Start system, put something live in, be it a fish, sand, rock, etc. Wait a week and add a bit more… repeat. No testing needed really.

Bottle start, pretty much the same.

Tank full of live rock? That is likely the only time I would bother testing, depend on on the source of the rock and how much. Here the ‘cycle’ and spike is likely die off (many reason).

 

[IslandLifeReef]

My thought on this is asking how the heavy hitters in the industry start their display tanks. Take @WWC for example. They have numerous videos showing how they start their display tanks. None of them that I have seen show them adding dry rock, bottled bacteria, and then stocking them within a day. The last one I saw actually had them waiting well over a month before they started stocking the display tank. Why is that? Is it because it saved them money? I wouldn't think so. Who wants to see a cycling display tank in a store? Is it because their method has shown the best chance of success over the years? I would think this is more likely.

To say that linked threads are evidence that it is best practice to just add bottled bacteria and then fish and there is no need for a cycle isn't really science or evidence. This isn't saying that you can't skip the cycling process by adding bottled bacteria and some fish, some do it successfully. However, that doesn't prove that it is the best practice, nor does it prove that it doesn't harm the fish in any way.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m building my first tank and I have everything set up and ready to go. I plan on cycling the tank with live Carib Sea Agra Alive, Dry Rock, Fritz Turbo Start, and 2 Clown fish.

Will it be okay to have the Agra Alive sand and Saltwater running in the tank for a couple days before I add the Turbo Start and Clowns? Will not having the Ammonia source make the batería for dormant (does it work that)?

I want to make sure I get off to a good start so I appreciate the help!

I only use carib sea live aragonite and it des have a shelf life (pay attention to label) It does not control ammonia as was just stated but aids in ammonia-nitrate-nitrate control by improving waste reduction which reduces cycling time in new setups. I just added 10 bags on a new tank 6 weeks ago and tank has been crystal clear with NO cyano, diatoms and stable Ph . . . . Nothing. I used it for at least 25 years including my pet store displays and it has never let me down.
It however is not the magic sand and only substrate

 

[Tired]

To say that linked threads are evidence that it is best practice to just add bottled bacteria and then fish and there is no need for a cycle isn't really science or evidence. This isn't saying that you can't skip the cycling process by adding bottled bacteria and some fish, some do it successfully. However, that doesn't prove that it is the best practice, nor does it prove that it doesn't harm the fish in any way.

Agreed.

There are a lot of things you can do to an animal that won't kill it. Heck, there are a lot of things that won't harm it, but still shouldn't be done. I could make a dog sit downwind of a campfire for hours without causing any permanent harm, no matter how irritating the smoke is, but that wouldn't be a kind thing to do. We should demand better than just "won't kill the fish".

It's also worth mentioning that someone asking for cycling advice is generally someone who's new to the hobby. Someone starting their first aquarium should not be encouraged to take the fastest route that works, they should be encouraged to take the most bulletproof route reasonably available to them.

 

[Dave1993]

Post in thread 'Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...fish-in-cycles-harm-fish.745914/post-10266014

I’m just gonna leave this here….

I appreciate all the responses! sounds like everything will be fine running just live sand with no ammonia for a couple days.

if ur gonna run the tank with 2 clownfish you don't want to add ammonia at all

 

[brandon429]

Islandlife

that’s an excellent perspective

trade shows is how we see what they do, how do they align 250 display reefs all ready by a Friday


with no extended wait cycle, like old cycling science advocate

that’s rows of fish, in reefs, one day setups, not being burned (clues abound we can see to discern fish harm vs fish health)


what are heavy hitters at macna, reef stock, aqua shella doing for 30 yrs

those are fifty thousand dollar reef displays at times

not just frag racks, am saying full reefs with live rock, some with dry + bottle bac starts who know enough about secret skip cycling to trust all their bounce corals


these cycles do not starve or run temporarily

every pico reef I’ve owned was a no test live rock skip cycle, like a trade show, and they run years on end. This recalls the rule that if a cycle is earned, it doesn’t retrograde or get weak or starve or stall

BeanAnimal I have only one small tweak to the above live rock thing

when origin is known, been at a pet shop or in a reef tank for a month+ prior to use, cured live rock does not die off

in fact we can visually look at the rock to see if it’s the kind that can mini cycle

mini cycles come from the outside not the inside

**what you’re aiming towards is uncured ocean rock with such a complement of growths we don’t see it in reef tanks. That’s what cures and dies off, but those are origin known rocks (shipped from gulf or TBS)

when cured in an aquarium, what trade shows use as transfer live rock, it’s the most solid cycle in all reefing. its the #1 one I wouldn’t test, ironically.

here’s a thread running the stated test, I predict we will never have a single loss or crash, testing isn’t requested though any seneye owner is always welcome to test and post, bottle bac isn’t allowed, we go off results

do corals open vs close, do fish live vs die…by page one hundred we have an indisputable proof in my opinion:

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

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watch out for: any recommendation of bottle bac reinforcement from a bottle bac seller, instantly be skeptical if they mention it

for example

if WWC says ‘we use bottle bac just to be sure’ I would then ask them: are they using skip cycle live rock or dry rocks

if the answer is dry rock, I’ll agree

if it’s live rock, and they say ‘just in case’ while also selling bottle bac to the masses, that’s hidden sales planting

we can always skip cycle with live rock. Old school sellers always knew this, it’s buyers that don’t know it.

bottle bac sellers must never imply that we need bottle bac other than for dry rock starts, once. Anything beyond that is a shill.

if WWC does not sell bottle bac, and they want to use it just in case during a live rock skip cycle, that’s just fine/it’s their cash leak but at least no hint to others to leak cash


Im 100% against selling bottle bac based on invented needs like stalls or live rock just in case, but I’m fully for its use in white rock skip cycle setups and actually it’s a decent thing to add to transport water when moving fish two states away. More effective than Prime for the target goal.

I like to use bottle bac when it’s indicated, then never leak money on it again.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@Erin1971Texas I supposed you feel that fish was burned too is that correct, even though we have a passing ammonia test? No matter what, it was burned

@brandon429 I have zero interest in reading any of your posts, let alone your threads, but since you tagged me... Until you can post scientific reports with multiple necropsy results of fish exposed to ammonia but survived the cycle, that prove that there were zero long term negative effects, stop claiming that fish that merely "survive" a cycle are unharmed.

Your definition of "unharmed" is very uncompassionate. And telling a new hobbyist to throw caution to the wind is irresponsible.

*And to answer your question "No matter what, it was burned?", I will always err on the side of taking extra time/precaution if there is the CHANCE that otherwise I will cause harm to an animal in my care!

To say that linked threads are evidence that it is best practice to just add bottled bacteria and then fish and there is no need for a cycle isn't really science or evidence. This isn't saying that you can't skip the cycling process by adding bottled bacteria and some fish, some do it successfully. However, that doesn't prove that it is the best practice, nor does it prove that it doesn't harm the fish in any way.

There are a lot of things you can do to an animal that won't kill it.

We should demand better than just "won't kill the fish".

It's also worth mentioning that someone asking for cycling advice is generally someone who's new to the hobby. Someone starting their first aquarium should not be encouraged to take the fastest route that works, they should be encouraged to take the most bulletproof route reasonably available to them.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

if ur gonna run the tank with 2 clownfish you don't want to add ammonia at all

I'm not adding ammonia just the clowns to create ammonia.

 

[Dave1993]

I'm not adding ammonia just the clowns to create ammonia.

you are starting with live rock i guess then?

 

[RockusDukakis33]

you are starting with live rock i guess then?

I gave a break down of what I'm doing.

 

[Dave1993]

I gave a break down of what I'm doing.

any reason u wanna cycle with fish instead of just dosing ammonia for like 2 weeks?

i mean don't get me wrong i added fish straight away but i spent £700 on live rock to be able to do that

 

[BeanAnimal]

^ THIS ^

Surely you're not in that much of a hurry to expose fish to injury. If done right, the cycle is from 4-6 weeks, and shorter if you use a cap full of clear ammonia every couple days and bottled bacteria like Microbacter7 or Fritz. Give those little fishy guys a chance at a good start.

I just don't get the newfound MUST dump buckets of ammonia into a new aquarium mindset. Sure you can "cycle" like this, but for what real overall benefit? How much time are you really saving (both to get to that first few fish and in the overall first year or three of system maturation).

Take a 75 gallon reef - with all dry sand and base and throw in a single fish or a cup or two of sand from a friend there will be no huge dangerous spike, just a gradual ramp up of biological activity with much smaller peaks as colonization begets colonization. You can slowly add livestock over several weeks/months.

Take the same 75 gallon reef - dry substrate and dump in a bottle of stuff and pour in ammonia - create a HUGE spike and wait a few weeks and add a fish or two. Sure you may start off 10-14 days in with more nitrogen cycle capacity, but you would be crazy to take that new reef and dump in a dozen fish and a pile of coral - no matter what your "tests" says. Experienced reefer that has a good feel for everything else? Maybe... but for NEW to the hobby slow and steady wins the game anyway... meaning that all of that colonization you built up with your self made cycle cess pool is going to atrophy (causing more spikes as it dies?) waiting for you to ramp up the tank anyway. And guess what, as you slowly ramp up the load in the system, so will the NNR colonies ramp to support it....

As I mentioned above - if you are starting with large amounts of live rock/sand as a ratio of total system size, then all bets are off anyway. You don't need to pour anything in and you may or may not have huge spikes, die offs, etc. depending on where the rock./sand came from, how it was kept/stored etc.

 

[Rovert]

I just don't get the newfound MUST dump buckets of ammonia into a new aquarium mindset. Sure you can "cycle" like this, but for what real overall benefit? How much time are you really saving (both to get to that first few fish and in the overall first year or three of system maturation).

Take a 75 gallon reef - with all dry sand and base and throw in a single fish or a cup or two of sand from a friend there will be no huge dangerous spike, just a gradual ramp up of biological activity with much smaller peaks as colonization begets colonization. You can slowly add livestock over several weeks/months.

Take the same 75 gallon reef - dry substrate and dump in a bottle of stuff and pour in ammonia - create a HUGE spike and wait a few weeks and add a fish or two. Sure you may start off 10-14 days in with more nitrogen cycle capacity, but you would be crazy to take that new reef and dump in a dozen fish and a pile of coral - no matter what your "tests" says. Experienced reefer that has a good feel for everything else? Maybe... but for NEW to the hobby slow and steady wins the game anyway... meaning that all of that colonization you built up with your self made cycle cess pool is going to atrophy (causing more spikes as it dies?) waiting for you to ramp up the tank anyway. And guess what, as you slowly ramp up the load in the system, so will the NNR colonies ramp to support it....

As I mentioned above - if you are starting with large amounts of live rock/sand as a ratio of total system size, then all bets are off anyway. You don't need to pour anything in and you may or may not have huge spikes, die offs, etc. depending on where the rock./sand came from, how it was kept/stored etc.

You're a bit dramatic. Nobody said 'buckets'. My experience is that clear ammonia in modest doses will foster a robust bacteria culture faster than exposing fish to ammonia spike.

You do with your tank as you please, I prefer to go with what I know works from many cycles in years past.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

You're a bit dramatic. Nobody said 'buckets'. My experience is that clear ammonia in modest doses will foster a robust bacteria culture faster than exposing fish to ammonia spike.

You do with your tank as you please, I prefer to go with what I know works from many cycles in years past.

I prefer to not use bottled ammonia... ghost feeding works better for me

 

[BeanAnimal]

You're a bit dramatic. Nobody said 'buckets'. My experience is that clear ammonia in modest doses will foster a robust bacteria culture faster than exposing fish to ammonia spike.

You do with your tank as you please, I prefer to go with what I know works from many cycles in years past.

Clearly nobody is recommending buckets full, the wording was meant to highlight the point being made. Observing your ruffled feathers, I think you may have missed that point. I also did not advise dunking fish in ammonia

-There are many paths to a functioning natural denitrification system. I offered alternatives to the rather current "must bottle back and x y z" advice that I am seeing everywhere. There is nothing wrong with that methodology, but it is not the only way.

-You offered advice in a public forum, please don't be upset that other people's opinions, experience, or knowledge differ from yours and they offer advice as such.

But hey don't take my word for it - I only have 80 posts and may be new to all of this.

 

[brandon429]

2 ppm is buckets lol

Bean, we think a lot alike
Thread, closed by type rioters lol the sole statement was: quit using copious ammonia in cycling, it's going to always make your api act up, you'll think it's stalled, you'll buy more bottle bac

Top ten reasons you should NOT dose a new cycling tank to 2 ppm ammonia

We are all 100% familiar with the sales adage that a cycle is only proven when you can move 2ppm ammonia to zero multiple times before a cycle can be deemed reliable 9.9/10 cycling umpires online stand firm with this information in unison to anyone posting doubt about cycle completion, what...

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It's a fad, don't do it.

A bottle bac seller made the rule

Use some ammonia, not the recommended dose

Closed though, the groupthink didn't agree they revolted until mods indeed had to close


Every thread they close of mine is a coming trend that can't be bucked or is already occurring, such as subbing in fish for ammonia and not burning those fish

If Erin completed the search shown earlier, she'd see fritz bottle bac instantly handling 2 clownfish waste in ample dilution and she couldn't claim they were burned in all these posts of them doing fine