Will I Ruin my Cycle? (Noob Question)

[IslandLifeReef]

Those are fair questions. you can’t leave your expiry date open though

make it specific

do skip cycles expire @ 4 mos then?

this thread isn’t when skip cycle began, I made all my reefs that way since 2001, on every forum

but that is this threads age, so, Im kicking up a few entrants to see if they made years. Takes a sec to get respondents

Again, the OP wasn't asking about a skip cycle, they asked about using dry rock, bottled bacteria, and immediately adding fish. That is not a skip cycle. In your response, you stated that there was no concern for harm caused by ammonia. This was after several people stated to cycle the tank first and that they wouldn't trust the bottled bacteria to do the job since there are instances of those bottles not always working. The only thing I am disagreeing with you on is saying that there is no concern for harming the fish if the OP uses this method. I would like to see the scientific proof of that. I don't think that random threads on R2R constitute scientific proof. There needs to be a process and the scientific method must be followed IMO.

 

[Bennett_Reefing]

I’m building my first tank and I have everything set up and ready to go. I plan on cycling the tank with live Carib Sea Agra Alive, Dry Rock, Fritz Turbo Start, and 2 Clown fish.

Will it be okay to have the Agra Alive sand and Saltwater running in the tank for a couple days before I add the Turbo Start and Clowns? Will not having the Ammonia source make the batería for dormant (does it work that)?

I want to make sure I get off to a good start so I appreciate the help!

dont add fish until 2 weeks of having water sand and rock in there! I would add a crab, shrimp or snails at 1 week

 

[ReefGeezer]

I’m building my first tank and I have everything set up and ready to go. I plan on cycling the tank with live Carib Sea Agra Alive, Dry Rock, Fritz Turbo Start, and 2 Clown fish.

Will it be okay to have the Agra Alive sand and Saltwater running in the tank for a couple days before I add the Turbo Start and Clowns? Will not having the Ammonia source make the batería for dormant (does it work that)?

I want to make sure I get off to a good start so I appreciate the help!

I'm late to the party but... You need to understand that it is not the fish that drive ammonia... it is the food processed by the fish. Adding a couple of Clowns does not have to drive ammonia too high. Adding two Clowns and feeding them like you would in an established tank will. I'm not familiar with the Carib Sea products, but Turbo Start usually works all by itself. I would not start a tank this way, but if you must, limit feeding to a few frozen brine shrimp per fish per day. I mean a few, like 5 or 6 for a week or so, then add a few more.

 

[Brian-222]

Islandlife

that’s an excellent perspective

trade shows is how we see what they do, how do they align 250 display reefs all ready by a Friday


with no extended wait cycle, like old cycling science advocate

that’s rows of fish, in reefs, one day setups, not being burned (clues abound we can see to discern fish harm vs fish health)


what are heavy hitters at macna, reef stock, aqua shella doing for 30 yrs

those are fifty thousand dollar reef displays at times

not just frag racks, am saying full reefs with live rock, some with dry + bottle bac starts who know enough about secret skip cycling to trust all their bounce corals


these cycles do not starve or run temporarily

every pico reef I’ve owned was a no test live rock skip cycle, like a trade show, and they run years on end. This recalls the rule that if a cycle is earned, it doesn’t retrograde or get weak or starve or stall

BeanAnimal I have only one small tweak to the above live rock thing

when origin is known, been at a pet shop or in a reef tank for a month+ prior to use, cured live rock does not die off

in fact we can visually look at the rock to see if it’s the kind that can mini cycle

mini cycles come from the outside not the inside

**what you’re aiming towards is uncured ocean rock with such a complement of growths we don’t see it in reef tanks. That’s what cures and dies off, but those are origin known rocks (shipped from gulf or TBS)

when cured in an aquarium, what trade shows use as transfer live rock, it’s the most solid cycle in all reefing. its the #1 one I wouldn’t test, ironically.

here’s a thread running the stated test, I predict we will never have a single loss or crash, testing isn’t requested though any seneye owner is always welcome to test and post, bottle bac isn’t allowed, we go off results

do corals open vs close, do fish live vs die…by page one hundred we have an indisputable proof in my opinion:

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

watch out for: any recommendation of bottle bac reinforcement from a bottle bac seller, instantly be skeptical if they mention it

for example

if WWC says ‘we use bottle bac just to be sure’ I would then ask them: are they using skip cycle live rock or dry rocks

if the answer is dry rock, I’ll agree

if it’s live rock, and they say ‘just in case’ while also selling bottle bac to the masses, that’s hidden sales planting

we can always skip cycle with live rock. Old school sellers always knew this, it’s buyers that don’t know it.

bottle bac sellers must never imply that we need bottle bac other than for dry rock starts, once. Anything beyond that is a shill.

if WWC does not sell bottle bac, and they want to use it just in case during a live rock skip cycle, that’s just fine/it’s their cash leak but at least no hint to others to leak cash


Im 100% against selling bottle bac based on invented needs like stalls or live rock just in case, but I’m fully for its use in white rock skip cycle setups and actually it’s a decent thing to add to transport water when moving fish two states away. More effective than Prime for the target goal.

I like to use bottle bac when it’s indicated, then never leak money on it again.

What's your take on TBS live rock, is it any good and could you skip cycle with that rock?

 

[jabberwock]

What's your take on TBS live rock, is it any good and could you skip cycle with that rock?

When your only contribution to a thread is a back handed insult and a bit of snark to go along with it

Apologies to the OP.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

What's your take on TBS live rock, is it any good and could you skip cycle with that rock?

Any newly received live rock will likely have some die off and if so, this can cause an ammonia spike. I would not order TBS or any other live rock, put it in a new tank upon delivery, and immediately add livestock... Give the tank time to stabilize. But no extra bacteria should be needed, just time for any dead organic matter to be nitrified.

So you'll test for ammonia and when it's back to zero, you're good to go .

 

[BeanAnimal]

Apologies to the OP.

These conversations get a bit sideways sometimes. Thank you for dropping back in.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Any newly received live rock will likely have some die off and if so, this can cause an ammonia spike. I would not order TBS or any other live rock, put it in a new tank upon delivery, and immediately add livestock... Give the tank time to stabilize. But no extra bacteria should be needed, just time for any dead organic matter to be nitrified.

So you'll test for ammonia and when it's back to zero, you're good to go .

Some die off can be an understatement

Better have the skimmer cranked up!

 

[Brian-222]

Any newly received live rock will likely have some die off and if so, this can cause an ammonia spike. I would not order TBS or any other live rock, put it in a new tank upon delivery, and immediately add livestock... Give the tank time to stabilize. But no extra bacteria should be needed, just time for any dead organic matter to be nitrified.

So you'll test for ammonia and when it's back to zero, you're good to go .

Can I add the live rock and sand right away and clean up crew. Let the ammonia spike first then add livestock after ammonia spike?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I wouldn't add a cleanup crew. Will it live? Maybe. If ammonia gets too hight the snails will head for high ground above the waterline (or die) and the crabs may not make it? Why take the chance?

Getting something "live" into the tank is not a race. With live rock and sand, let it run for a few weeks even after the ammonia spike (i don't even bother to check) clears. Watch it and the many things that come and go start to take hold...

 

[brandon429]

@Brian-222

none of this live rock below has dieoff, ever, it just transfers over with zero consequence for all keepers and especially anyone who studies seneye patterns in any way. make sure and check this thoroughly to distinguish two types of live rock

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

TBS is opposite, gulf rock are opposite of those above. Those above are from aquariums and don’t have tons of different growths, they have tons of coralline as the visual proof of being skip cycle rocks, without having to use ammonia testing

we use no ammonia testing above


tbs and gulf rock have more instances of ammonia issues not due to lack of bacteria, it’s due to this uncured ocean rock looking so differently than cured rock above, and all those fancy sponges and clams and tunicates and stands of algae dying off for about ten days - ammonia usually spikes due to this dieoff

until a seneye owner tracks a TBS dieoff we don’t know the degree, no api owner or Red Sea ammonia test owner can give feedback on accurate ammonia there owing to common problems in those test kits basic searches show.

 

[Brian-222]

@Brian-222

none of this live rock below has dieoff, ever, it just transfers over with zero consequence for all keepers and especially anyone who studies seneye patterns in any way. make sure and check this thoroughly to distinguish two types of live rock

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

TBS is opposite, gulf rock are opposite of those above. Those above are from aquariums and don’t have tons of different growths, they have tons of coralline as the visual proof of being skip cycle rocks, without having to use ammonia testing

we use no ammonia testing above


tbs and gulf rock have more instances of ammonia issues not due to lack of bacteria, it’s due to this uncured ocean rock looking so differently than cured rock above, and all those fancy sponges and clams and tunicates and stands of algae dying off for about ten days - ammonia usually spikes due to this dieoff

until a seneye owner tracks a TBS dieoff we don’t know the degree, no api owner or Red Sea ammonia test owner can give feedback on accurate ammonia there owing to common problems in those test kits basic searches show.

So what live rock and live sand and from where would you recommend? Thank you!

 

[brandon429]

Something we don’t see from old cycling science teachers, non work threaders: a $40 PayPal bounty

I hereby challenge any reader owning a seneye to calibrate it first on a running reef tank working normally, so we see if the calibrated and trimmed seneye reports in the middle to lower thousandths ppm nh3 as stocked reef tanks do.

post that log

then go get skip cycle live rock from a pet store, the kind from that example thread above

let’s say twenty bucks worth and bring it home wrapped only in wet newspaper

don’t even give it the courtesy of a water transport… force the mini cycle fear to express if possible by simple transport home wrapped only in saltwater wet newspaper.

This is a step down in safety from water transport, broken cycle advocates/ mini cycle teachers/ old cycling adherents/ say the condition happens even if we water transport the rock (their api kits said nh4 wasn’t bone yellow zero, so they learned to attribute as mini cycle from moving cured rock)

take the live rock and place at home in a clean five gallon paint bucket of reef water, with a power head and common preset 78degree heater all running well

this is a skip cycle test reef

post the calibrated seneye logs

if it mini cycles I’ll pay the first proofer showing this forty bucks. Show it on seneye or hanna digital

Add a clownfish

Now we're test loading, if it mini cycles = 40 bucks paypal to first claimant

 

[brandon429]

@Brian-222



the last page of the thread shows a full picture of where to get it

for sand, you’d get caribsea ocean direct wet pack sand, and you’d pre rinse it like we do here if you want updated methods. If you want unupdated methods, add the sand unrinsed and wait days for the cloud to recede. Read all sand prep work to save me retyping:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

I don’t argue with peers about sand rinsing. Either a fifty page example thread of rinse outcomes has merit or it doesn’t, patterns stand as they will



I 100% recommend setting up a display reef with true cured skip cycle live rock and pre rinsed Carib sea ocean direct sand. It’s the strongest start you could possibly get in reefing.


a *four month* delayed and carefully dosed ten times over 2ppm to zero bottle bac start is not better than a cured rock instant skip cycle setup on day one, even at four months dry rocks don’t have a tenth of the diversity coralline cured live rocks bring on hour one.


= new cycling science.

 

[Runnin'Reefer]

Running reefer I thank you so much for posting

This thread got me a new algae correction job in private message just now.

I get to rip clean an algae infested tank using skip cycle science and add the after pics to my rip clean thread. Someone wants to let me remote pilot their reef back to gold look, that's fun, there's a demand market for the action


Not everyone who reads trainwreck threads think they're a wreck, neutral stance readers go to people's avatars here, they click 'find all threads' and they either see a post history of sideline evaluations or they see past history of working in hundreds of peoples reefs with a good outcome

They send private messages to the folks they think might help vs sideline them, evolution in reef practice continues privately where loud anti voices don't factor

@BeanAnimal

Having to endure arguments by people who would never make a work thread using other people's reefs/ money/ risk is the price to influence change in procedure on a large scale in my opinion

The armchair qbacks have the loudest voice and are the most resistant to change

If it were not this way, we'd all still be thinking a 25 gallon reef was the smallest that could be done, PNW would have no micro reefs to sell, there would be no jar reefs having fun on YouTube

Angry gatekeepers who don't cause change in procedure would stifle evolution in our hobby, somebody has to rib them mercilessly for combating that which they do not practice whatsoever

I've got time for that

No problem man! Does that mean I get some commission? hahaha

 

[Lasse]

I’m building my first tank and I have everything set up and ready to go. I plan on cycling the tank with live Carib Sea Agra Alive, Dry Rock, Fritz Turbo Start, and 2 Clown fish.

Will it be okay to have the Agra Alive sand and Saltwater running in the tank for a couple days before I add the Turbo Start and Clowns? Will not having the Ammonia source make the batería for dormant (does it work that)?

I want to make sure I get off to a good start so I appreciate the help!

It works

I'm not adding ammonia just the clowns to create ammonia.

Exactly - adding a fish and very little feeding is IMO the best way of starting an saltwater tank - please see here

15 Steps to Starting a Saltwater Aquarium: The Lasse Method

15 Steps to Starting a Saltwater Aquarium: The Lasse Method Display Tank. Photos are all courtesy of Lasse Forsberg. ©2019, All Rights Reserved. INTRODUCTION There are many methods to start a saltwater aquarium--each major aquarium product manufacturer has its own. Common to most, however...

www.reef2reef.com

If you follow the step with spare feeding - you can never, ever get toxic or even sub-toxic levels of NH3

PLEASE DON'T ADD FISH UNTIL THE TANK IS CYCLED!!

Put the sand, rock, water, and turbo start in, add a (not living!) ammonia source, and let the tank fully cycle before adding any livestock. Cycling a tank with live fish is cruel as they will suffer ammonia poisoning. Even if they are hardy fish and survive, that doesn't make it ok to torture them. Use a piece of raw seafood, bottled ammonia, or fish food as your ammonia source.

This is not true - you can use a fish as the cycling motor (producing low amounts of ammonia) and use the amount of feed as the fuel - as stated below by @ReefGeezer and in my 15 steps

I'm late to the party but... You need to understand that it is not the fish that drive ammonia... it is the food processed by the fish. Adding a couple of Clowns does not have to drive ammonia too high. Adding two Clowns and feeding them like you would in an established tank will. I'm not familiar with the Carib Sea products, but Turbo Start usually works all by itself. I would not start a tank this way, but if you must, limit feeding to a few frozen brine shrimp per fish per day. I mean a few, like 5 or 6 for a week or so, then add a few more.

Sentence taken straight from a scientific book called The Ecology of Nitrifying Bacteria
"Heterotrophic nitrification does not appear to generate energy for growth"

The important here is the word Heterotrophic nitrification. The normal form of nitrification is an autotrophic process there the autotrophic bacteria use the energy difference between NH4 and NO2 in the first step and between NO2 and NO3 i the second step as plants use daylight. Its act as food.

Heterotrophic nitrification where organic compounds is the energy source is more seldom seen. It has been shown in environment where the AOB (Ammonium Oxidation Bacteria) and NOB (Nitrite Oxidation Bacteria) has been wiped out by toxic substances (among these high levels of NH3)


Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yep - there was nothing wrong with old way... just ask us old guys

 

[jabberwock]

Some die off can be an understatement

Better have the skimmer cranked up!

I will try to be constructive this time...

My TBS live rock was a smashing success. Very little die off, but I did drive down and do local pickup. They also suggest having a cycled tank to receive the rock.

I purchased 1 pound of live rock from 1 LFS, and a pound from another. Purchased two pounds of ceramic media and Dr. Tim's Ammonia source to cycle the tank prior to adding 20 pounds of TBS live rock. Added a single firefish 1 week later.

My result has been outstanding. I observed the TBS for about a month before adding sand in order to extract unwanted hitchhikers more easily.

October 15

Today

 

[brandon429]

You didn't need any ammonia added

And what was added processed harmlessly like fish bioload

Excellent setup

The type of live rock most likely to mini cycle, didn't, it seems. Very nice.

That's the #1 tank base to prevent dinos in my opinion, and lend the strongest coral growth. You have the best start in reefing

 

[jabberwock]

You didn't need any ammonia added

And what was added processed harmlessly like fish bioload

Excellent setup

The type of live rock most likely to mini cycle, didn't, it seems. Very nice.

That's the #1 tank base to prevent dinos in my opinion, and lend the strongest coral growth. You have the best start in reefing

It is shipped in water and packaged very well. The urchin came with it, along with limpets, brittle stars, a few nuisance crabs, but also 5 porcelain crabs, macro algae and more good stuff. I did get the "premium" rock. Worth every penny.