What is a [nitrogen] Cycle?

[Fish Fan]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, could I please ask for your help

Some of the R2R #reefsquad team has recently been discussing cycling tanks, and what this really means. Some of us have debated what the term "cycled" really means. We hope to create an article that will help newer reefers start their tanks without stress, and set themselves up for success going forward. I personally follow just about all of your posts (I have since about 2004), and I follow just about every "help me cycle my tank" thread here on R2R. I have followed many of your most recent posts where you've suggested that cycling a tank is a "crutch". I've also noticed where you and reefers like @atoll and @Paul B are questioning whether the primary nitrifiers are bacteria or rather archaea.

I would like to bring the most current information forward in this article, rather than quote the "standard advice"

Could you please define what it means to "[nitrogen] cycle" a tank, in your expert opinion?

Do you still advise "cycling" a tank, or do you advise simply adding live fish, or adding fish with specifically Fritz TurboStart, which you and many have noted that it works much more quickly than other, similar products?

Do you have a process for starting a brand new tank that you could share with us?

Absolutely any insight into cycling aquaria would be very much appreciated!

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[atoll]

IMO and experience there are phases of cycling a tank for want if a better description. There is the nitrogen cycle were ammonium = ammonia = nitrite = nitrate, that being the first phase cycle.

However, the tank isn't exactly mature. A really mature tank may take 2 years to accomplish. That is the second phase. The tank becomes more robust and stable during this period.

I always use live rock for the first phase preferably already mature from another tank. A small piece of shrimp or other is added to the tank to feed the bacteria already present in the rock.

I also use sand in my tank and a handful or 2 of mature sand from another tank is added. I also use a bottle bacteria like DrTims to the tank to help create a bio load and speed up the nitrogen cycle.

Once the first phase is complete I add a couple of the fish I want to keep then slowly build up my fish stock over years.

This is what works for me but others will have other methods they prefer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think traditional cycling is a carry over from fish only tanks. Unfortunately, there has been very little appetite to try different ways, but I think they could be just as good or better in terms of a reef tank, without any added bacteria or measuring ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

I’ll summarize a few possibilities below.

1. With ocean rock or rock from an existing tank, do nothing special. Get rock and slowly start filling the tank with creatures. Many folks, myself included, do this one.

2. Get a refugium with macroalgae or an ATS up and running, and feed the tank fish food or dose N and P. Add creatures.

3. Get rock, dead or alive, dose N and P, and slowly add creatures.

4. Get rock, dead or alive, feed a mix of organics with N and P, and slowly add creatures. Some commercial organic additive may work here.

 

[Fish Fan]

IMO and experience there are phases of cycling a tank for want if a better description. There is the nitrogen cycle were ammonium = ammonia = nitrite = nitrate, that being the first phase cycle.

However, the tank isn't exactly mature. A really mature tank may take 2 years to accomplish. That is the second phase. The tank becomes more robust and stable during this period.

Thank you for your reply! I very much agree that a tank goes through more than just the initial nitrogen cycle, but for this conversation I am asking specifically about the initial N-cycle

I always use live rock for the first phase preferably already mature from another tank. A small piece of shrimp or other is added to the tank to feed the bacteria already present in the rock.

I also use sand in my tank and a handful or 2 of mature sand from another tank is added. I also use a bottle bacteria like DrTims to the tank to help create a bio load and speed up the nitrogen cycle.

Once the first phase is complete I add a couple of the fish I want to keep then slowly build up my fish stock over years.

This is what works for me but others will have other methods they prefer.

I also prefer to start with live rock and sand, hands down. But would you have a suggestion for those that start with dry rock and sand, or do you not suggest that method at all?

Thank you again for your help!

 

[Fish Fan]

I think traditional cycling is a carry over from fish only tanks. Unfortunately, there has been very little appetite to try different ways, but I think they could be just as good or better in terms of a reef tank, without any added bacteria or measuring ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

Thank you for your help!

Again, I do prefer using live rock, but others actually prefer dry rock, and many new reefers find live rock unaffordable, so I'm trying to offer some options to cycling (live rock/sand, dry rock/bottled bacteria, the "shrimp" method, etc.).

1. With ocean rock or rock from an existing tank, do nothing special. Get rock and slowly start filling the tank with creatures. Many folks, myself included, do this one.

2. Get a refugium with macroalgae or an ATS up and running, and feed the tank fish food or dose N and P. Add creatures.

These here, I follow you

3. Get rock, dead or alive, dose N and P, and slowly add creatures.

4. Get rock, dead or alive, feed a mix of organics with N and P, and slowly add creatures. Some commercial organic additive may work here.

With these, and assuming a dry rock start specifically, I'm not quite following you. I assume you dose N&P to foster the growth of organisms that can uptake ammonia, but where would those organisms come from in this scenario (dry rock specifically)?

Another situation that I think could work well, but was not yet mentioned here, would be to stock a new tank with coral frags right form the start. This would certainly work, but I don't know if that's a great plan for someone very new to coral care and reefing in general.

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it!

 

[Fish Fan]

I think traditional cycling is a carry over from fish only tanks.

Just a follow up please, but if one wanted to set up a true fish only tank, how would that person prepare their tank for fish, Fritz TurboStart?

Thank you again! I know this might seem like a silly question, but I think there's layers to this discussion, and I would very much like to bring the newest information to light, and not just offer the same tired advise.

 

[atoll]

Thank you for your reply! I very much agree that a tank goes through more than just the initial nitrogen cycle, but for this conversation I am asking specifically about the initial N-cycle


I also prefer to start with live rock and sand, hands down. But would you have a suggestion for those that start with dry rock and sand, or do you not suggest that method at all?

Thank you again for your help!

Am not a fan of dry rock but there isn't really an issue apart from maybe it takes a little longer to seed and gain enough nitrifying bacteria. A combination of dry and live rock would be better than just dry rock. With an ammonia/nitrite scorce to help it along.

 

[exnisstech]

Again, I do prefer using live rock, but others actually prefer dry rock, and many new reefers find live rock unaffordable, so I'm trying to offer some options to cycling (live rock/sand, bottled bacteria, the "shrimp" method, etc.).

I think many just don't want hitchhikers and only want a tank with what they add and nothing else. Heck look at the posts asking what this is growing on my rock lol. It's like they expect their rock to stay white and sterile looking and they want that look.
As far as cost I just priced out 20lbs of gulf live rock delivered and its $9.40 per lb. That's less I see some dry rock selling for. Some folks love dry rock and will not use live rock which is great if that works for them. When I used only dry rock I feel like I set myself up for failure and that's exactly what happened.
I'm not sure why cycling is such a problem for many unless its because they are testing too much and trying to over analyze things. I've only been in the hobby for 10 years and the only thing I do when I cycle a tank is add an ammonia source, usually household ammonia with no additives. I wait a week or so and start testing for nitrate. When I see nitrate present, I begin moving slowly forward. I've cycled numerous tanks this way and never had a stalled or failed cycle. But then again maybe I have and I just don't know it because I don't test for ammonia or nitrite.
I think testing to see if ammonia is being processed is probably a good thing especially for people new that are trying to learn but it's a step I skip because it seems to create problems. Maybe because people interpret the results wrong? Hopefully this thread can help clarify the actual correct process of doing that and illuminate some of the why has my cycle has stalled or my cycle failed posts that we see.

 

[atoll]

I think many just don't want hitchhikers and only want a tank with what they add and nothing else. Heck look at the posts asking what this is growing on my rock lol. It's like they expect their rock to stay white and sterile looking and they want that look.
As far as cost I just priced out 20lbs of gulf live rock delivered and its $9.40 per lb. That's less I see some dry rock selling for. Some folks love dry rock and will not use live rock which is great if that works for them. When I used only dry rock I feel like I set myself up for failure and that's exactly what happened.
I'm not sure why cycling is such a problem for many unless its because they are testing too much and trying to over analyze things. I've only been in the hobby for 10 years and the only thing I do when I cycle a tank is add an ammonia source, usually household ammonia with no additives. I wait a week or so and start testing for nitrate. When I see nitrate present, I begin moving slowly forward. I've cycled numerous tanks this way and never had a stalled or failed cycle. But then again maybe I have and I just don't know it because I don't test for ammonia or nitrite.
I think testing to see if ammonia is being processed is probably a good thing especially for people new that are trying to learn but it's a step I skip because it seems to create problems. Maybe because people interpret the results wrong? Hopefully this thread can help clarify the actual correct process of doing that and illuminate some of the why has my cycle has stalled or my cycle failed posts that we see.

I have never tested for ammonia just nitrite then nitrate. I soon stop testing for nitrite, once the test show negative nitrite I don't bother testing for it anymore.

 

[exnisstech]

I have never tested for ammonia just nitrite then nitrate. I soon stop testing for nitrite, once the test show negative nitrite I don't bother testing for it anymore.

From reading is seems many new people are under the impression they need to see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. I think it may be one if those information vs misinformation issues?

 

[atoll]

From reading is seems many new people are under the impression they need to see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. I think it may be one if those information vs misinformation issues?

Each starting with ammonium are less toxic than the one before. Always preferable to have zero ammonia and nitrite hence why a wait till both give negative readings. How much ammonia and nitrite is dangerous to fish life am not so sure but why risk either. Just be patient it's a long road to travel and the rewards are immense.

 

[Fish Fan]

I think many just don't want hitchhikers and only want a tank with what they add and nothing else. Heck look at the posts asking what this is growing on my rock lol. It's like they expect their rock to stay white and sterile looking and they want that look.

Yes, I think those that prefer a dry rock start do so out of concern of hitchhikers. But honestly people get hitchhikers either way, it's almost unavoidable. My most recent build, which has been nothing but problems for me, is a dry rock, bare bottom, and likely the last time I do that lol! But I got vermitid snails from Astrea snails, which were like the first thing I added

From reading is seems many new people are under the impression they need to see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. I think it may be one if those information vs misinformation issues?

YEs, there's A LOT of misinformation out there. Just this morning someone was upset because their tank was showing like 1 ppm nitrite for many weeks, and Facebook and their local reef store was telling them that their cycle was stalled, and somehow messed up. I see this kind of thing all the time.

 

[exnisstech]

Yes, I think those that prefer a dry rock start do so out of concern of hitchhikers. But honestly people get hitchhikers either way, it's almost unavoidable. My most recent build, which has been nothing but problems for me, is a dry rock, bare bottom, and likely the last time I do that lol! But I got vermitid snails from Astrea snails, which were like the first thing I added


YEs, there's A LOT of misinformation out there. Just this morning someone was upset because their tank was showing like 1 ppm nitrite for many weeks, and Facebook and their local reef store was telling them that their cycle was stalled, and somehow messed up. I see this kind of thing all the time.

Its no wonder new people get so confused and frustrated with all the misinformation so readily available. I was lucky when I started my first tank. I'm not one to spend much time planning and I tend to dive in and figure things out as I go so I didn't get drawn into spending hours and hours watching videos or other types if media on the subject. I read a few posts from some old timers who ran nice simple systems with no tech etc and almost every one mentioned live rock so that's what I started my first tank with and I have no regrets.
I got live rock seeded and harvested off the coast of PR delivered to my door for $79 for a 20lb box. The good ol days lol.

 

[DeepDreamer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, could I please ask for your help

Some of the R2R #reefsquad team has recently been discussing cycling tanks, and what this really means. Some of us have debated what the term "cycled" really means. We hope to create an article that will help newer reefers start their tanks without stress, and set themselves up for success going forward. I personally follow just about all of your posts (I have since about 2004), and I follow just about every "help me cycle my tank" thread here on R2R. I have followed many of your most recent posts where you've suggested that cycling a tank is a "crutch". I've also noticed where you and reefers like @atoll and @Paul B are questioning whether the primary nitrifiers are bacteria or rather archaea.

I would like to bring the most current information forward in this article, rather than quote the "standard advice"

Could you please define what it means to "[nitrogen] cycle" a tank, in your expert opinion?

Do you still advise "cycling" a tank, or do you advise simply adding live fish, or adding fish with specifically Fritz TurboStart, which you and many have noted that it works much more quickly than other, similar products?

Do you have a process for starting a brand new tank that you could share with us?

Absolutely any insight into cycling aquaria would be very much appreciated!

Thank you in advance for your help!

I've seen this topic getting tossed around in freshwater as well. Archaea are probably the primary nitrifier in low pH water, and due to them being probable extremophiles, they probably love the higher pH ocean water as well. Fritz TurboStart seems to work well for tank cycling though, so I'd probably try a study as seen in freshwater. A bacteria in the freshwater version completely skips the regular ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and goes: ammonia-nitrate instead, completely skipping the bacteria that turn nitrites into nitrates.

 

[Fish Fan]

Its no wonder new people get so confused and frustrated with all the misinformation so readily available. I was lucky when I started my first tank. I'm not one to spend much time planning and I tend to dive in and figure things out as I go so I didn't get drawn into spending hours and hours watching videos or other types if media on the subject. I read a few posts from some old timers who ran nice simple systems with no tech etc and almost every one mentioned live rock so that's what I started my first tank with and I have no regrets.
I got live rock seeded and harvested off the coast of PR delivered to my door for $79 for a 20lb box. The good ol days lol.

I also much prefer live rock too. I believe I have done my first and last dry rock, bare bottom start

 

[Fish Fan]

I've seen this topic getting tossed around in freshwater as well. Archaea are probably the primary nitrifier in low pH water, and due to them being probable extremophiles, they probably love the higher pH ocean water as well. Fritz TurboStart seems to work well for tank cycling though, so I'd probably try a study as seen in freshwater. A bacteria in the freshwater version completely skips the regular ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and goes: ammonia-nitrate instead, completely skipping the bacteria that turn nitrites into nitrates.

Thank you for the information!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With these, and assuming a dry rock start specifically, I'm not quite following you. I assume you dose N&P to foster the growth of organisms that can uptake ammonia, but where would those organisms come from in this scenario (dry rock specifically)?

Another situation that I think could work well, but was not yet mentioned here, would be to stock a new tank with coral frags right form the start. This would certainly work, but I don't know if that's a great plan for someone very new to coral care and reefing in general.

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it!

I should have clarified, but the idea is to add consumers (corals, anemones, macro, etc) as fast or faster than N and P producers (such as fish). The tank is not relying on nitrifiers at all. The N and P dosing is to ensure that there is enough for the consumers, without production of excess ammonia at any time.

Not a newbie technique, but one I expect can work. Like a frag tank, but expanded into a full reef over time.

 

[Fish Fan]

I should have clarified, but the idea is to add consumers (corals, anemones, macro, etc) as fast or faster than N and P producers (such as fish). The tank is not relying on nitrifiers at all. The N and P dosing is to ensure that there is enough for the consumers, without production of excess ammonia at any time.

Not a newbie technique, but one I expect can work. Like a frag tank, but expanded into a full reef over time.

I follow you now, this would be a very interesting way to start a tank for sure.

One last question please: aside from using live rock, what do you feel is the best option for a true beginner?

Thank you for your time and help, I appreciate it!