Will I Ruin my Cycle? (Noob Question)

[jabberwock]

Thank y

Thank you for all your help so fa

Thank you for all your help so far, do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough or would you recommend more? Also, what salt are you using with your TBS live rock in your tank? Are you having to dose as well, if so what are you dosing? Thank you again for all your advice and help so far. I don't want to mess this up.

I think 2 pounds would suffice. If it is useless, at least it won't hurt anything. It is not so expensive that you will feel "fleeced" after buying it.

I buy water from LFS. They use Red Sea.

You will make mistakes. I should have temporarily turned off all my flow when I added 5 Rock Flower Anemones. Something beyond your control may happen. I had a Biocube spring a catastrophic leak. Some fish may go carpet surfing. Be prepared to accept set backs. They happen...

I wish you success!

 

[brandon429]

 

[jabberwock]

@Brian-222, the reason you cycle a tank is to establish a bacteria base to process ammonia. which is harmful to fish. A fish by itself would not produce the amount of ammonia that is typically used to cycle a tank. The issues come from decaying food in the tank until the bacteria base can be built.

When you get real live rock from TBS, that rock already contains the bacteria you need for your tank. That bacteria came from the ocean where that rock sat for weeks or months. It really is the best for biodiversity IMO. Yes, you may get some unwanted hitch hikers on that rock. If that is a concern, you can simply put that rock in your tank and watch it for a few weeks and remove any unwanted hitch hikers. That rock will still have plenty of bacteria on it. There may also be some die off from transporting the rock. That is why you need to test the water. You may see an increase in ammonia, or maybe not, it all depends on the amount of die off. You could probably keep it under control with water changes if needed.

You are paying a lot of money for that TBS rock. I think it is worth it, but don't waste you money on added ceramic material, bottled bacteria, or especially ammonia to dose with if you are using TBS live rock. You won't have to dose anything until you start noticing ALK and Calc being consumed faster than it can be replaced by your typical water change schedule.

Hope this helps.

This advice is not what the folks at TBS recommend for their premium live rock. I suggest the OP strike up an email dialog with them to get the best advice from the vendor. They are super nice and responsive. They want you to be successful.

 

[Soren]

This advice is not what the folks at TBS recommend for their premium live rock. I suggest the OP strike up an email dialog with them to get the best advice from the vendor. They are super nice and responsive. They want you to be successful.

Pay attention to the nuances of the recommendations. For cycling new tanks, TBS recommends using their base rock as it will introduce the microorganisms needed for a functioning system without putting larger organisms at potential risk if there is an ammonia spike from die-off (which should be less likely or non-existent since the main organisms on base rock are very robust in the transfer process).
The reason they recommend adding the premium rock to an established tank is to give the best chance to preserve the "premium" life on the rock which will do better in an established system and may be harmed during the die-off process.

I agree with the suggestion to start dialog with supplier.

It is still funny to me that almost all cycling threads end up this way, especially due to certain consistent factors.

Maybe some day we can have more concise and agreed-upon information regarding what is actually happening in cycling.

This is my take, if worth anything to anyone:
Cycling is one aspect of a full ecosystem to equilibrate inputs and outputs. Cycling refers to the establishment of nitrifying bacterial populations that are a key part in our systems. For all ammonia added to the system (directly through chemical additives, food sources, or biological processes in the livestock), there must be enough bacteria or other consumers (such as algae) to use or break down the ammonia. The greater the amount added to the system, the greater the amount that needs to be processed without concentration rising, potentially to damaging levels in our closed systems.
To establish the populations of nitrifying bacteria, an initial introduction is needed. This can be acquired in 3 common means: 1) naturally from air/water everywhere, 2) brought in on media from an established system, or 3) purchased directly in bottled form.
1) The natural method typically takes the longest to become established since the initial introduction is minimal, but it does work to add saltwater to a container, add an ammonia source, and wait. Without good measurement methods and a high level of patience, this method is not as reliable unless a long amount of time elapses focusing primarily on just bacteria production without adding fish or corals. It may work, but it is more risky.
2) Bringing in media from an established system is one of the most effective methods, as strong bacterial populations already exist on the surfaces and are ready to process ammonia immediately (though there still needs to be a balance between amount of media added and rate of introduction of ammonia to the system to avoid harmful circumstances). This method includes live rock (true live rock from long-established system that is kept wet) from friends, vendors, or the ocean directly. If this method is used, there is a chance that transfer from one system to another causes a die-off of organisms and subsequent spike in ammonia that can be harmful to more organisms and can spiral out of control if not maintained. Typically, this should not be the case if transferred properly. This method can be an instant stability to the new system, but there are still some risks involved that need to be taken into account. I do not think this method should include introduction of chemical ammonia (concentrated/synthetic additive in a bottle), as it puts macro-organisms at risk and does not provide a substantial benefit over the use of more natural methods through other life forms and food sources.
3) Bottle bacteria is the newest method discussed here. It is a working method, but it also requires time and care to properly follow instructions so as not to rush the introduction of organisms only for their hurt. No macro-life forms should be added to the tank while following this method, as they put organisms at risk and mess with the process. Since this method is commonly paired with the use of dry rock, it will not be as fast as using established media, since the bacteria populations on the surfaces of the new system have to become newly established rather than building from existing colonies. This method is often facilitated by the addition of chemical ammonia, which is acceptable since there are no macro-organisms in the system to be harmed by the high levels of ammonia. This is also a good way to know how much ammonia is being added in order to put measurement metrics to the process.

The main thing I think is significant enough to mention, even though I do not seem to find it in the common language/writings today (I really wonder why? I think it could help people have a better understanding of what is actually happening biologically?) is that tanks need to reach a state where they are cycling, not "cycled." This is to make the distinction that the nitrogen cycle does not happen once at the start of a new system, but is rather an ongoing cycle in the system where constant ammonia additions from the organisms and foods are processed/consumed/removed from the system. I find it helpful to consider the ecosystem balance for the closed system, knowing that all inputs have to be processed or they build up in concentration in the closed system.

Though I hope it stays civil, I like to see ongoing discussion about the cycling process, especially from more considerations of the biology and chemistry behind it, as it provides an opportunity for us to learn more about our systems and how to properly keep them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The reason they recommend adding the premium rock to an established tank is to give the best chance to preserve the "premium" life on the rock which will do better in an established system and may be harmed during the die-off process.

Maybe some day we can have more concise and agreed-upon information regarding what is actually happening in cycling.

I personally would not add their "premium" rock to an established tank, for fear of hitchhikers .

But yes - your take on their advice is spot on.

As for "agree upon information" - it will never happen, as people will always want to argue the nuance of each method and/or argue about the "best" way. There is no "best" way and just about "any" way will lead to an aquarium with a functional natural nitrate reduction system. Even to that end the "speed" at which any of the methods get there is really irrelevant in the context of the average lifetime of a reef aquarium.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Soren]

I personally would not add their "premium" rock to an established tank, for fear of hitchhikers .

But yes - your take on their advice is spot on.

As for "agree upon information" - it will never happen, as people will always want to argue the nuance of each method and/or argue about the "best" way. There is no "best" way and just about "any" way will lead to an aquarium with a functional natural nitrate reduction system. Even to that end the "speed" at which any of the methods get there is really irrelevant in the context of the average lifetime of a reef aquarium.

Happy Reefing.

Yeah, I have a separate tank for my ocean live rock to mitigate risk of bad hitchhikers before introduction into a primary system. Since I like all the different life forms, I am willing to take some personal risk that some others would not be willing to take.

I know there will always be disagreements about methodology, but I do wish there was a better general understanding or more concise information about the actual chemical and biological processes that occur in cycling (this may exist, but I do not see it showing up in the day-to-day discussions or often in the advice offered). Instead of just telling beginners a method to get the tank "cycled," it seems better to me to explain (at least at a basic level) what is actually happening in the processes and show why this supports a recommended methodology. This could mitigate some of the unnecessary arguments that continuously occur on these threads.

Essentially, I would like to hear why the common terminology seems to indicate "cycled" is a once-and-done process rather than a balancing of an ongoing process in an ecosystem over time... and wish that all would seek a more scientific understanding and communication demeanor rather than just pushing anecdotes (I know this seems unlikely within the bounds of human nature, but that does not stop me from wishing...).

Just my thoughts, Happy Reefing.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

This advice is not what the folks at TBS recommend for their premium live rock. I suggest the OP strike up an email dialog with them to get the best advice from the vendor. They are super nice and responsive. They want you to be successful.

Who said it was premium live rock?

I don't see your recommendation of adding ceramic material on their website.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah, I have a separate tank for my ocean live rock to mitigate risk of bad hitchhikers before introduction into a primary system. Since I like all the different life forms, I am willing to take some personal risk that some others would not be willing to take.

I know there will always be disagreements about methodology, but I do wish there was a better general understanding or more concise information about the actual chemical and biological processes that occur in cycling (this may exist, but I do not see it showing up in the day-to-day discussions or often in the advice offered). Instead of just telling beginners a method to get the tank "cycled," it seems better to me to explain (at least at a basic level) what is actually happening in the processes and show why this supports a recommended methodology. This could mitigate some of the unnecessary arguments that continuously occur on these threads.

Essentially, I would like to hear why the common terminology seems to indicate "cycled" is a once-and-done process rather than a balancing of an ongoing process in an ecosystem over time... and wish that all would seek a more scientific understanding and communication demeanor rather than just pushing anecdotes (I know this seems unlikely within the bounds of human nature, but that does not stop me from wishing...).

Just my thoughts, Happy Reefing.

The science is rather simple and well established. Most people don’t give a hoot about the science though. Other people use what they think they understand of the science as a hammer to bludgeon people and best their opinion Into them.

In then end, you simply have several stages of a food chain that must evolve and find a balance. They grow to consume the food provided by the bacteria in the prior step.
Nitrogen —> Nitrite —>Nitrate.

 

[jabberwock]

Who said it was premium live rock?

I don't see your recommendation of adding ceramic material on their website.

I ordered premium live rock. I decided to use ceramic media to supplement the surface area. Why is this the Spanish Inquisition?

 

[jabberwock]

The science is rather simple and well established. Most people don’t give a hoot about the science though. Other people use what they think they understand of the science as a hammer to bludgeon people and best their opinion Into them.

In then end, you simply have several stages of a food chain that must evolve and find a balance. They grow to consume the food provided by the bacteria in the prior step.
Nitrogen —> Nitrite —>Nitrate.

I am a scientist by training and trade.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am a scientist by training and trade.

Out of cookies or would offer one. I like to share cookies (even with engineers and scientists), even though some people don't.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Marco Rocks in display - seeded with a cup of live sand. This is maybe a year in at most.. close to 20 years ago?

At some point around this time I swapped 50 pound of the marco rock in the sump out for 50 pounds of Fiji. the Fiji was cured in a rubbermaid tub for 2 weeks with a seaclone skimmer...

 

[jabberwock]

Out of cookies or would offer one. I like to share cookies (even with engineers and scientists), even though some people don't.

Scientists don't like to be lumped together with engineers, and vice versa. Not sure what your cookie comment means. Sounds snarky. Thanks for calling me out and then showing your true colors.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Scientists don't like to be lumped together with engineers, and vice versa. Not sure what your cookie comment means. Sounds snarky. Thanks for calling me out and then showing your true colors.

Was an honest attempt at humor - not snark.

And yes- that is why I lumped them together - again, attempt at humor

 

[GatorGreg]

The only way to solve the difference of opinions here is to do a duel. Involved parties post a picture of your tank. Walk to your tanks and post a pic of what it looks like RIGHT NOW.

Best tank wins argument.


Drunken ramblings

 

[jabberwock]

Was an honest attempt at humor - not snark.

And yes- that is why I lumped them together - again, attempt at humor

Frantically searching for reverse.

 

[jabberwock]

The only way to solve the difference of opinions here is to do a duel. Involved parties post a picture of your tank. Walk to your tanks and post a pic of what it looks like RIGHT NOW.

Best tank wins argument.


Drunken ramblings

I'm your Huckleberry...

 

[BeanAnimal]

The only way to solve the difference of opinions here is to do a duel. Involved parties post a picture of your tank. Walk to your tanks and post a pic of what it looks like RIGHT NOW.

Best tank wins argument.


Drunken ramblings

Can't see in my tank right now - a blue ridge has plated over 90% of the front glass (literally). I have not done a water change in over 5 years and have feed the fish maybe once a month - or every other at best. They eat the algea that has grown on the rocks. There are some leathers, palys, a brain coral and mushrooms. One day soon there will be SPS again... Pulled the blueridge loose from the glass but have to break it into pieces and take to to meeting Saturday.

Maybe pictures then.

 

[GatorGreg]

I'm just pokin fun. I bet yalls tank embarass mine. Carry on

 

[jabberwock]

I am out. Wish the best of luck to the OP.