Will I Ruin my Cycle? (Noob Question)

[jabberwock]

Here is my experience with marco dry rock...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow - how did that happen? You think it was full of phosphate to begin with?

I never had a problem with it - back in the day, some people swore up and down that it was full of phosphate. I purchased several hundred pounds at various times. It is mined rock, so I suppose it is possible that some portions of the deposits are subject to runoff or groundwater with phosphates? Who knows.


The other possibility is that it is just a good place for HA to grow in a new system

 

[brandon429]

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

about five grand + of corals transferred from live rock to dry rock setup, shows charted course of the uglies

 

[jabberwock]

Wow - how did that happen? You think it was full of phosphate to begin with?

I never had a problem with it - back in the day, some people swore up and down that it was full of phosphate. I purchased several hundred pounds at various times. It is mined rock, so I suppose it is possible that some portions of the deposits are subject to runoff or groundwater with phosphates? Who knows.


The other possibility is that it is just a good place for HA to grow in a new system

I believe the latter. The barren rock is an easy place for algae to take hold. For example, I currently have green hair algae on my power head, cord, and return pump heads, but no where else. The ocean rock is already occupied (biofilm).

There was nothing else competitive enough to utilize the nutrients. once it got a foothold, it was all over.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I believe the latter. The barren rock is an easy place for algae to take hold. For example, I currently have green hair algae on my power head, cord, and return pump heads, but no where else. The ocean rock is already occupied (biofilm).

There was nothing else competitive enough to utilize the nutrients. once it got a foothold, it was all over.

That has always been my take as well. But some people are convinced that it came with phosphates!

I did not have an issue. In fact, it was my sandbed that got covered with cyano and GHA in the early weeks of the tank. I went to look for photos, but I think most of them are offline now. It's been 15-20 years

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Here is how I would do it. Go to 2 or three LFS and purchase a pound or two of wet "live" rock from each one. Different sources increase the odds of bacterial biodiversity. Then purchase a few pounds of ceramic media. This will provide extra surface area for bacterial colonization from the live rock. There is no need for bottled bacteria. I used Dr. Tim's ammonia source to feed the cycle. I only dosed it 3 times and the last time was just to see how quickly it got converted. The cycle was complete in 9 days, but I waited a couple more weeks because I drove to Tampa to pick up my ocean rock. Add ocean rock, wait one week and then add a fish or two. I kept mine bare bottom for about a month while I caught undesirable hitchhikers. Then add some live sand to top it off. I removed the LFS rocks before I added sand, or sump them along with the ceramic media. As always add livestock pretty slowly. I added my first coral a month after sand was added. I hope it works for you.

Nope!!


You do not need to add ammonia to the tank if you use TBS live rock! Adding ammonia, especially if you add it to the Dr Tims recommended amount, can kill some of the good hitch hikers that will come in on the rock. There is a difference between cycling a tank and curing live rock.

TBS live rock will have enough biodiversity for your tank. If you follow their recommendations, there is no need for extra media for extra surface area.

 

[Brian-222]

Thank y

Here is how I would do it. Go to 2 or three LFS and purchase a pound or two of wet "live" rock from each one. Different sources increase the odds of bacterial biodiversity. Then purchase a few pounds of ceramic media. This will provide extra surface area for bacterial colonization from the live rock. There is no need for bottled bacteria. I used Dr. Tim's ammonia source to feed the cycle. I only dosed it 3 times and the last time was just to see how quickly it got converted. The cycle was complete in 9 days, but I waited a couple more weeks because I drove to Tampa to pick up my ocean rock. Add ocean rock, wait one week and then add a fish or two. I kept mine bare bottom for about a month while I caught undesirable hitchhikers. Then add some live sand to top it off. I removed the LFS rocks before I added sand, or sump them along with the ceramic media. As always add livestock pretty slowly. I added my first coral a month after sand was added. I hope it works for you

Thank you for all your help so fa

Here is how I would do it. Go to 2 or three LFS and purchase a pound or two of wet "live" rock from each one. Different sources increase the odds of bacterial biodiversity. Then purchase a few pounds of ceramic media. This will provide extra surface area for bacterial colonization from the live rock. There is no need for bottled bacteria. I used Dr. Tim's ammonia source to feed the cycle. I only dosed it 3 times and the last time was just to see how quickly it got converted. The cycle was complete in 9 days, but I waited a couple more weeks because I drove to Tampa to pick up my ocean rock. Add ocean rock, wait one week and then add a fish or two. I kept mine bare bottom for about a month while I caught undesirable hitchhikers. Then add some live sand to top it off. I removed the LFS rocks before I added sand, or sump them along with the ceramic media. As always add livestock pretty slowly. I added my first coral a month after sand was added. I hope it works for you.

Thank you for all your help so far, do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough or would you recommend more? Also, what salt are you using with your TBS live rock in your tank? Are you having to dose as well, if so what are you dosing? Thank you again for all your advice and help so far. I don't want to mess this up.

 

[brandon429]

"do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough"

the hint in the question is that if you used zero, no ceramic media, something bad would happen. it would not, that's for freshwater aquariums/extra surface area/you're being fleeced if you buy that for a reef just because fleeced peers recommend it.

that sounds mean I'm aware, especially to people who use bio bricks or ceramic media, they didn't buy those from a documented need they bought it because that's what reef peers in groups do, instructed by sellers. we can call it something nicer than fleecing if it helps

there is no time in reefing that your display runs too low on surface area. there is no time in reefing that adding extra surface area beyond what's in the display saves your tank, or does something on a test kit that not having the extra media would do.

that is a waste of money in reefing, for anyone who uses it in a display or in a sump connected to a display. it is a fad that 90% of reefers would recommend, but that doesn't make it correct. 90% of reefers also believe in stalled cycles as instructed by bottle bac sellers.

 

[Garf]

Thank y

Thank you for all your help so fa

Thank you for all your help so far, do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough or would you recommend more? Also, what salt are you using with your TBS live rock in your tank? Are you having to dose as well, if so what are you dosing? Thank you again for all your advice and help so far. I don't want to mess this up.

My tank is the least porous tank you’ll probably see on this site. Glass, plastic, solid calcite scape. No ammonia detected on ammonia alert.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Thank y

Thank you for all your help so fa

Thank you for all your help so far, do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough or would you recommend more? Also, what salt are you using with your TBS live rock in your tank? Are you having to dose as well, if so what are you dosing? Thank you again for all your advice and help so far. I don't want to mess this up.

@Brian-222, the reason you cycle a tank is to establish a bacteria base to process ammonia. which is harmful to fish. A fish by itself would not produce the amount of ammonia that is typically used to cycle a tank. The issues come from decaying food in the tank until the bacteria base can be built.

When you get real live rock from TBS, that rock already contains the bacteria you need for your tank. That bacteria came from the ocean where that rock sat for weeks or months. It really is the best for biodiversity IMO. Yes, you may get some unwanted hitch hikers on that rock. If that is a concern, you can simply put that rock in your tank and watch it for a few weeks and remove any unwanted hitch hikers. That rock will still have plenty of bacteria on it. There may also be some die off from transporting the rock. That is why you need to test the water. You may see an increase in ammonia, or maybe not, it all depends on the amount of die off. You could probably keep it under control with water changes if needed.

You are paying a lot of money for that TBS rock. I think it is worth it, but don't waste you money on added ceramic material, bottled bacteria, or especially ammonia to dose with if you are using TBS live rock. You won't have to dose anything until you start noticing ALK and Calc being consumed faster than it can be replaced by your typical water change schedule.

Hope this helps.

 

[brandon429]

reason it's important to be confident in surface area when designing a reef: so we can focus on what kills fish= fish disease preps

my statement about extra surface area being a total waste of time is honestly redirecting concern to where it belongs. we are all trained to *constantly* doubt the ability of water bacteria in water, it shows on all hinted statements made across most posts.


notice in this entire thread we've focused on cycling

that kills fish ironically/hyperfocus on cycling completion using old cycling science excludes fish disease preps as the real focus, and reading, + purchases that center around disease preps such as separate observational systems so you can fallow new imports vs bringing in disease with every coral and CUC about to be stocked/ excluding fish disease preps in cycle threads kills fish by omission.

cycling is treated by the masses as so very important, the center of losses, it never is. A cycle completed is a give-me, it's not something that we have to coax.

cycle science is fun to review but in the end that part is done and figured out for us already, Brian has been shown that his rock planned is going to handle the filtration just fine for the system: all reading, study and concern for details + purchasing (you need QT tanks or hospital tanks to observe fish and fallowing items) needs to center around disease preps

if you skip disease preps, thinking it won't happen to you, that thought didn't come from reading the new help posts in the disease forum for one hour today.

if you can't afford to get a separate QT or hospital system, the fish about to be added will still die anyway after a few months and you'll allocate those funds to new fish, over and over.

if one hour's reading in the fish disease help forum shows a different take on this matter, I'm open to hear of that.

 

[brandon429]

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

that link above is the most important read in all these 7 pages of cycle discussion.

the actual cycle from anyone's tank is no concern after day ten. anything too high/low we might perceive as an issue for the cycle is resolved by day ten of wait, after setting it all up, even if cheap test kits disagree.

cycling via new cycling science = choose a cycle method discussed here, set it up fully. let it run ten days, you're cycled, without testing.

focus all efforts and purchase and study now in the forum above, before you stock fish in the tank which is certainly ready to carry them.

you can't win if you skip disease preps, even if you read in a book that you could. you can only win with fish if you follow the rules shown clearly there, and if you learn by proxy from the 200 pages of loss threads we can read for prep study, before doing the same thing to our fish over and over.

 

[Brian-222]

@Brian-222, the reason you cycle a tank is to establish a bacteria base to process ammonia. which is harmful to fish. A fish by itself would not produce the amount of ammonia that is typically used to cycle a tank. The issues come from decaying food in the tank until the bacteria base can be built.

When you get real live rock from TBS, that rock already contains the bacteria you need for your tank. That bacteria came from the ocean where that rock sat for weeks or months. It really is the best for biodiversity IMO. Yes, you may get some unwanted hitch hikers on that rock. If that is a concern, you can simply put that rock in your tank and watch it for a few weeks and remove any unwanted hitch hikers. That rock will still have plenty of bacteria on it. There may also be some die off from transporting the rock. That is why you need to test the water. You may see an increase in ammonia, or maybe not, it all depends on the amount of die off. You could probably keep it under control with water changes if needed.

You are paying a lot of money for that TBS rock. I think it is worth it, but don't waste you money on added ceramic material, bottled bacteria, or especially ammonia to dose with if you are using TBS live rock. You won't have to dose anything until you start noticing ALK and Calc being consumed faster than it can be replaced by your typical water change schedule.

Hope this helps.

Thank you

 

[Brian-222]

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

that link above is the most important read in all these 7 pages of cycle discussion.

the actual cycle from anyone's tank is no concern after day ten. anything too high/low we might perceive as an issue for the cycle is resolved by day ten of wait, after setting it all up, even if cheap test kits disagree.

cycling via new cycling science = choose a cycle method discussed here, set it up fully. let it run ten days, you're cycled, without testing.

focus all efforts and purchase and study now in the forum above, before you stock fish in the tank which is certainly ready to carry them.

you can't win if you skip disease preps, even if you read in a book that you could. you can only win with fish if you follow the rules shown clearly there, and if you learn by proxy from the 200 pages of loss threads we can read for prep study, before doing the same thing to our fish over and over.

I'll take a look, thank you.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you

Again - people tend to make this all far more complicated than it is.

Put stuff in tank - let stuff drive nitrogen cycle.

The more stuff that can decay, the larger the initial spike and (in theory) the faster the population to break it down grows.

This works with a single fish, dead shrimp, bacteria and organics from the air, etc. It is all a matter of time and the size of the initial ammonia spike that drives the process that will take place 24/7 for the live your tank.

You want to "cycle" stuff in the tank BEFORE the TBS rock shows up, great. But once you place ALL OF THAT TBS rock in the tank, you will see another spike as it acclimates too.. How big? Who knows, depends on how long the rock was in transit and your water parameters when you dunk it in.

You want to NOT "cycle" the tank before the TBS shows up, fine. The rock will do its thing anyway.

What you DO NOT want to do is Put the TBS rock in the tank AND then dump Ammonia in... serves absolutely no purpose other than to cause an unneeded Ammonia spike that may actually kill good stuff that came in the rock.

No matter which path you take, you should be taking your time and stocking the system slowly, observing and letting it mature/adapt as you go.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

What you DO NOT want to do is Put the TBS rock in the tank AND then dump Ammonia in... serves absolutely no purpose other than to cause an UNNEEDED Ammonia spike that may actually kill good stuff that came in the rock.

Fixed that...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Fixed that...

autocorrect and fat fingers. Not a fan of autocorrect.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

autocorrect and fat fingers. Not a fan of autocorrect.

I knew what you meant

 

[jabberwock]

"do you think two pounds of ceramic media is enough"

the hint in the question is that if you used zero, no ceramic media, something bad would happen. it would not, that's for freshwater aquariums/extra surface area/you're being fleeced if you buy that for a reef just because fleeced peers recommend it.

that sounds mean I'm aware, especially to people who use bio bricks or ceramic media, they didn't buy those from a documented need they bought it because that's what reef peers in groups do, instructed by sellers. we can call it something nicer than fleecing if it helps

there is no time in reefing that your display runs too low on surface area. there is no time in reefing that adding extra surface area beyond what's in the display saves your tank, or does something on a test kit that not having the extra media would do.

that is a waste of money in reefing, for anyone who uses it in a display or in a sump connected to a display. it is a fad that 90% of reefers would recommend, but that doesn't make it correct. 90% of reefers also believe in stalled cycles as instructed by bottle bac sellers.

Brandon - I have read your ridiculous dribble for 5 years. You are pushy, tactless, and have a raging superiority complex. After 5 years, I will now, happily "block you". Adios

 

[brandon429]

I have seen your angry retorts for as long, you used to be on block and I took it off, for a while.

I speak in links of work in other people's tanks, simple as that. you don't, we'll never agree/go back on block=problem solved. I have truly never seen you carry any tank challenge to completion, it's sidelining all the way, and angry sidelining at that.