Will NH3 be converted to NH4?

[jcosta98]

we cant know anything using food it must be clean fast liquid ammonia. food has a decay slope vs liquid ammonia/instant read ability.


if you dont have access to cycling ammonia then the absolute best way to know your ready date is off the directions from the bottle bac, they average about ten days wait. however many days the bac said it takes is what it will take, and non digital testers plus degradational ammonia may not agree though that method still feeds bacteria just fine.

in fact based on all the recent studies from Dr. Reef, Taricha and Dan et al using feed will beat liquid ammonia feeding anyway because its got carbon in it vs just environmental carbon access when folks use only ammonia


liquid ammonia however is an unbeatable cycle verifier though when accessible.

once you meet the # of days from the label of the bottle bac then you can begin reefing, as that # of days is probably also in line with an ammonia line off any common cycling chart, ie 10-12 days.

Sadly I don't have access to liquid ammonia , and sadly too Fauna marine doesn't set expected days or range of day when the cycle is completed, there is very few information I could find about people using this bacteria ( Bacto Blend by Fauna Marine) . Do you know where I can get liquid ammonia ?

 

[brandon429]

its not needed. Based on recent studies this aquarium when fed as you've done will be ready in 30 days for total use. and that's without adding any bottled bac.

so to be safe, and incorporating of current cycle trends and of cycling charts, Im 100% certain that after fifteen days of being fed like you've done plus adding any source of bottle bac whatsoever, you can reef as you want. it will carry the bioload you want for the tank.

do a nice water change on day 15 before you begin so there's a little less algae fuel in the water.

number of days submersion time is an unbeatable way to cycle when testing and liquid ammonia isn't handy/digital.

and if you're already at 15 days underwater plus feed plus that bac, time to reef right now. select a disease protocol though, cycling is the easy part it always works well.

disease however is killing fish 80% of the time within 8 mos on most new cycled tanks. stats from the fish forum and the age of the tank in posts from the first 20 pages averaged out.

 

[Lasse]

If you went from around 0.2 free ammonia to 0.05 - it means that you have gone from around 4 mg/L in total ammonia to 1 mg/l if pH is around 8 and from around 1.5 mg/L total ammonium to 0.4 mg/l if pH is 8.5. This tool can help you calculate

It seems like the first step NH3/NH4 -> NO2 is working or is on its way. Have you measured NO2?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

certainly do not test for nitrite here it will cause confusion. at fifteen days this cycle is done, you can already see the wheels in motion, and nitrite is neutral in all cycles including this one.

the testing challenges mentioned to you regarding non digital gear dont just stop at nitrite, they include it, and stated nitrite levels are not accepted as accurate anymore than stated nitrate levels are accepted as accurate in comparison threads.


*even when testing nitrate at two-three months, to give time for nitrite to zero out, that reading still is not accepted as accurate per any comparison thread. it lines up on paper but not in titration testing using api and cheap gear like it.


nitrite and nitrate are never needed to be known in calling any cycle done.


we have tanks out in the general forum that run zero nitrate yet carry fish and corals, and they're cycled.


if you track your cycle out using anything other than # of days underwater, expect hesitation, fear of incomplete cycle, and buying more bottle bac.


or on day fifteen which you're probably already at anyway, you can just reef and it will line up as all cycles did here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...ingly-stuck-cycle.742202/page-15#post-9052407

in that thread, every reef tank gets a specific safe start date based on description. yours is day fifteen underwater.

 

[Lasse]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-importance-of-nitrite-measurements-in-a-reef-aquarium.754714/
Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Lasse one question

why would we accept stated nitrite levels as accurate in all cases?

are there any cases for titration testing you feel wouldnt give an accurate result, or are they perfect all the time


curious where mis testing was covered when ascertaining nitrite. I always felt like since there arent many different meters for nitrite the public uses, those who test for it automatically assume a correct reading out of having no way to benchmark the stating tests.

because for ammonia and nitrate, titration testing certainly has massive variance, just massive inconsistency in comparison threads for example


how does nitrite testing avoid all that

 

[Garf]

I still occasionally use a nitrite test, it’s reassuring to know the nitrate tests are as accurate as they are going to be. I will admit, after cycling I’ve never had any reading apart from undetectable but I have never had a dodgy, or unexplainable reading, and certainly haven’t been confused. I have always fully cycled till nitrite undetectable.

 

[brandon429]

and 1/4 of api users can get that w the ammonia test too, but what does the 3/4ths report

I'm always interested in what the public reports vs one person.

same for fish disease, am interested in what shows up daily in the fish disease forum for persons, not just one person's tank as the ideal example of fish disease control.


how did nitrite testing become 100% infallible in our hobby? its the one param nobody ever, ever, ever doubts and its the most neutral of all params we sample as well, even if present.

when its not present, the nitrate testing doesnt become better it still ranges fifty points per sample across kits (nitrate comparison threads)

 

[jcosta98]

I tested for nitrite some days ago , just because I was having this behavior with the ammonia , and it shoots 0 on salifert test , Today I will test everything again and check if I can transfer one of my clowns to this tank !

 

[DrZoidburg]

There is not just specific ammonia, bacteria, and nitrate bacteria. @brandon429 If one does not want to be patient with a cycle it is good to test nitrite. If ammonia eating bacteria do their job the next in line nitrite bacteria. If nitrite goes too high it can kill off or stall nitrate and ammonia bacteria. Similar for nitrate if it goes too high can stall or kill ammonia and nitrite bacteria. Also same for ammonia if it goes too high can kill off or stall all.

 

[brandon429]

DZ you’re always good about factoring differing info

would you please read just a mere two pages of my link in post #24 and let me know if you still feel that way, an honest reflection on 5 mins read/ 2 pages for something I’ve worked a hundred hours producing would be an honorable consideration of new facts regarding nitrite. Let me know which aspect of predictions in post 1 and then follow through with help tanks people posted doesn’t prove my counterpoint. I’m interested in your discerning scan of just two pages lemme know what you think, and if you’ve ever seen exact start dates listed 100% of the time with no fails before, in any cycling thread. Give it a skeptics review


have we or have we not proven complete neutrality of nitrite in reefing in that thread, using nitrite-positive reefs or ammonia positive reefs, for fifteen pages? Have we established any patterns that stand out far different from any cycling threads you could link?

 

[brandon429]

Lasse please answer my question on how you’ve mentioned and accounted for simple misreporting in api nitrite measures, which are 99.9% of all online nitrite measures

you haven’t clarified if you accept 100% of stated nitrite measures as accurate, or the nitrate measures posted a few months later, have never seen you acknowledge mis testing titration issues in the hobby.





many folks dose prime without mentioning that step, we’ve discovered, and it impacts reported test levels. You are also aware of timed readings in api, how long samples must sit…fill levels and reagent shaking/expiry/ all kinds of confounds I’ve never seen you mention. If you believe that doesn’t occur, it would be nice to see you type that and have a clear stance on the accuracy of nitrite testing and nitrate testing in the cycled tank.

 

[Lasse]

titration testing

Your fault is that you are not used to terms. Total ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is no titration - Calcium, magnesium and some others is normally titrate testing. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate hobby testing is normally tests there you compare colours . titration is a test there you have a clear colour change.

Lasse please answer my question on how you’ve mentioned and accounted for simple misreporting in api nitrite measures, which are 99.9% of all online nitrite measures

you haven’t clarified if you accept 100% of stated nitrite measures as accurate, or the nitrate measures posted a few months later, have never seen you acknowledge mis testing titration issues in the hobby.
My entire thread mentions, and then tests it with live tanks and accountable feedback.

everyone is happy where we cycle using specific start dates.


your data is excluding test skewing, you’re not mentioning or discussing info regarding mis testing, or sample contamination by Prime which directly causes nitrite misreads etc.

many folks dose prime without mentioning that step, we’ve discovered, and it impacts reported test levels. You are also aware of timed readings in api, how long samples must sit…fill levels and reagent shaking/expiry/ all kinds of confounds I’ve never seen you mention. If you believe that doesn’t occur, it would be nice to see you type that and have a clear stance on the accuracy of nitrite testing and nitrate testing in the cycled tank.

Because there are bad cars on the market - I will not doom every car - will you?

I have not comment any special nitrite test at all - only said that just nitrite is one of the most accurate methods used in hobby tests. It may not say so much about reliability of nitrite tests as it say about other tests reliability. The methods used is stable and have few interferences from other compounds. Personally i can´t use colour comparison kits for the eye - I use Hanna ULR marine nitrite checker. However - other brands are good enough in order to see if a nitrification cycle is done or not. There is however few colour comparison kits (for the human eye or mine) that are usably in order to calculate nitrite interference in nitrate testing. However most of the hobby tests that is used in measuring robots like the Mastertronic give very high accuracy - it is not the tests that is the problem according to nitrite tests - it is the human eye.

The fact that there is bad kits or batches in the market does not take away the fact that nitrite testing is the best method in order to judge if there is a complete nitrification cycle taking place.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for answering that was well said.


@DrZoidburg let me know if you feel nitrite compliance is required in our work thread, how have we done by ignoring it in all cases? Do you feel making a predicted start date for 100% of reefs there based on the ammonia line off a cycle chart is wrong science, we’ve lucked into all those logged results?
you said nitrite matters, and by extension I take that to mean losses and death will result by it’s non factor.


if you aren’t convinced by first two pages, what kind of patterning would you like us to test, to discover if nitrite matters in reef cycling / I can source hundreds of participants for any changeup you’d like to see.

the top method we use there: your non digital test kits are misreporting, cease testing neutral parameters, test what matters if any, and use submersion date timing instead of testing where willing and your cycle will complete 100% of the time on a date known even before you set up the tank.

we will test that theory out to 100 pages, chemists will be forced at some point to acknowledge a pattern though 18 pages is not acknowledged whatsoever currently. we have proven completely that nitrite assessment has no place in cycling and that it causes false fear-based purchases of bottle bac. we use solely other's tanks who present for help


testing for nitrite as a requirement is part of the massive bottle bac overselling machine, the end benefit to sellers is you make fear based purchases when you incorporate nitrite testing into cycling.

 

[DrZoidburg]

DZ you’re always good about factoring differing info

would you please read just a mere two pages of my link in post #24 and let me know if you still feel that way, an honest reflection on 5 mins read/ 2 pages for something I’ve worked a hundred hours producing would be an honorable consideration of new facts regarding nitrite. Let me know which aspect of predictions in post 1 and then follow through with help tanks people posted doesn’t prove my counterpoint. I’m interested in your discerning scan of just two pages lemme know what you think, and if you’ve ever seen exact start dates listed 100% of the time with no fails before, in any cycling thread. Give it a skeptics review


have we or have we not proven complete neutrality of nitrite in reefing in that thread, using nitrite-positive reefs or ammonia positive reefs, for fifteen pages? Have we established any patterns that stand out far different from any cycling threads you could link?

I have read a few pages. I can say I agree and disagree at the same time. All I ment there that it is a fact high levels can kill off bacteria. Causing a reversal of cycle to have high ammonia. Take ammonia and these bacteria out of equation. Example people who make moonshine. The mash can only achieve at highest 18% alcohol. The yeast simply dies from its own biproducts, but can live at 10%. Where I agree is in one instance. I have cycled a tank in less than 4 days. Using a mixture of old rock, new rock live, sand and, bottled bacteria. Ammo dosed day 1. By day 3 tested nitrate. Yes skipped nitrite test. Day 4 same day as 10 fish arrived read ammonia and nitrate. Did a water change, dosed a reducer to be safe and added fish. Never read anything after water change. Yes this reducer would still test positive even if bound to ammonia. That would indicate if I still had excess being produced. So I had plenty of bacteria, however I had some old rock, and had a clue what I was doing. Made sure to do water changes a little each week mostly for fish health. Nitrite is toxic to fish at low levels. Would I recommend doing that on a new rock, or new fish keeper. I would say no do it the old way and be patient. The idea is to get a good bacteria balance before adding live stock. Yes you can rush a cycle but it is not really a good practice. If there is an imbalance and nitrite present without tests, then kind of like smoking you know its not good for you but you do it anyway.

 

[brandon429]

in order to disagree any we'd need to see logged consequence on our thread, or provide a link that shows some in a reef tank.

results clearly have not been factored

you hinted at risk and loss potential above that is simply nonexistent, even in cycling threads that aren't mine

to me it's required to show consequence when claiming nitrite stalls... show some dead or stressed fish in any cycle link vs just api scare test readings

 

[DrZoidburg]

I only read 2 pages. I get the jist of the thread. It might only be working cause saltwater fish can tolerate more nitrite. Still doesn't mean it is not affecting them, or other bacteria. https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1998/spring/nitrate.shtml

 

[brandon429]

But see how that's a scholar link, from a non fish tank, yet our context is in a reef tank with surface area, and perfect results for eighteen pages?

To control the context away from our settings is to misinfer


Apples to oranges

A cycling reef will never encounter lethal nitrite or nitrate. That's why our results are a better fit for cyclers, we remark on what logged reef cycles do, that's a lethality study above no reefer will ever encounter. must link a reef tank post or series pattern as we did.

 

[jcosta98]

So , earlier today I transferred one of my Clown fish to the tank , almost completing 24H , and he looks fine.

--> Tested today

pH: 8.0 - 8.5
Nitrite: 0
Free Ammonia: 0.05ppm
Nitrate: 3 ppm ( Isn't this too low? )

Thanks for helping everyone

 

[brandon429]

The nitrate is an approximation, it may read 20 ppm on another kit


we never mind nitrate for six months in my cycling threads, however it lands in a well fed well exported tank is good enough for the first half year or so.