LEDs and Acropora...Please shed some light on this topic (urrghhhh...)

[Chris Adams]

Light is only one of many ingredients for acro

To bad it wasn't the only 1 we could all have beautiful tanks

 

[jedimasterben]

Most are not pushed past there wattage. Most companies use 3 watt LEDs and run them around 2. It's a mute point comparing the output lose to MH and T5 my LEDs are still putting the same par out, and I bet they will 2 years from now as well. I personally like LEDs and have had good coloring and growth, but not saying which is better as I really don't know because when I used T5s I had mostly lps, switched to LEDs and acros awhile back (2-3 yrs don't really know exact date). But for me I switched because of cost and have had great success.

Regardless of whether you or the assembly location call them '3w' LEDs, they are binned at 350mA and 25C, aka one watt (really more in the 1.1-1.2 watt range for most Chinese diodes, they're based on very old tech).

It is not a moot point (not mute), as your lighting is NOT putting out what it did when you started. Lumen maintenance data will be available from the manufacturer, you can check that for yourself and will find out that your lighting is, indeed, less intense now. Chinese LED panels are notoriously poorly cooled (some do not even include a heatsink, just a large aluminum plate that the LEDs are epoxied to instead of soldered) and lumen maintenance in those can be even worse. Good thing is that they're cheap as dirt, so one fails, just throw it out and replace it with another.

I change T5s every 14-18 months. You're throwing a perfectly good bulb out if you change them at 6 months.

Just because it lights up doesn't mean that it is 'perfectly good'. A T5HO lamp run on a proper programmed start ballast can handle around 40,000 strikes and 35,000 hours of use on average. That's 97 months, so are you sure that only 14-18 months is all you can squeeze out?

The useful phosphor life depends on the ballast used, number of strikes, lamp hours, and lamp cooling. On a proper ballast with open-air (not enclosed) or active cooling, you should expect use phosphor life of 3-4,000 hours. At 12 hours per day, this is ~250-333 days. At 8 hours per day, well, it's really not much more time - you're still starting the lamps the same amount of times, and even on a programmed start ballast this does degrade the phosphors (though at a significantly reduced rate compared to rapid and instant start ballasts). After this time, phosphors have degraded to the point where the lamp is noticeably less intense and noticeably different in spectral output (and look).

Do you have FACTUAL data and/or knowledge that LED's last "7-10-yrs"? That is what the industry is "telling" all of us. I get tired of people throwing unfound claims of how long LED's last.

BUT I've had a very reputable LRS locally do actual testing over a 2-yr period (on some of the earlier LED's.....not going to mention the manufacture, but let's just say it was one of the major ones) and the dropoff in PAR was substantial. They took monthly and yearly reading and were one of the first LFS to install LED's. Their findings were pretty eyeopening and made me rethink switching to LED's at the time.

Lumen maintenance is a known factor and is verified to IES LM-80 standard by any reputable manufacturer.

I doubt that any single LED fixture will really last that long without some sort of failure, fans are typically the weakest link, with cheap power supplies/converters being next. All depends on quality of the components. You'll have your outliers with premature failures, but realistically those are few and far between when you look at actual sales vs reported failures.

 

[palmer]

I really changed to LED because it was difficult to get vho supplement bulbs and then phoenix 250 watt was slsi going to the graveyard. I was more pushed into LED because of availability than anything else. Even if they only last 4 yrs it would be alot cheaper for me than replacing my vho and mh bulbs at 9 month intervals .

 

[turfster26]

If I told you exactly what to do you wouldn't know why and the overall debate would still exist. This is exactly what happened with T5 layouts, people don't want to know why, they just want the answer. They are lazy and I blame the industry that has nearly snuffed out DIY innovation in our hobby. First you need to know why a coral reacts/adapts the way it does.

If you are looking to role model a light source, then do it. Does your output spectrum emulate the original light source? What can be removed without sacrificing pigmentation and growth? Better yet, what can be removed to aid in reduced photo-inhibition with an undesireable wavelength? True success comes from failure, understanding, and determination; not the easy button!

Instead of keeping us guessing, why don't you share with us your lighting setup? What's keeping you from telling us what your setup is?

Not trying to be argumentative, but isn't this what forums are all about.......sharing?

Any FTS too?

Thx in advance............

 

[ronnie]

Just because it lights up doesn't mean that it is 'perfectly good'. A T5HO lamp run on a proper programmed start ballast can handle around 40,000 strikes and 35,000 hours of use on average. That's 97 months, so are you sure that only 14-18 months is all you can squeeze out?

The useful phosphor life depends on the ballast used, number of strikes, lamp hours, and lamp cooling. On a proper ballast with open-air (not enclosed) or active cooling, you should expect use phosphor life of 3-4,000 hours. At 12 hours per day, this is ~250-333 days. At 8 hours per day, well, it's really not much more time - you're still starting the lamps the same amount of times, and even on a programmed start ballast this does degrade the phosphors (though at a significantly reduced rate compared to rapid and instant start ballasts). After this time, phosphors have degraded to the point where the lamp is noticeably less intense and noticeably different in spectral output (and look).

I can't tell if you're arguing with me or agreeing with me from your post, as you seem to go on both sides of the fence with your thoughts. I'll paraphrase what you said with my thoughts afterwards.

A T5 will run for a long time. Agreed.

But it's spectral output only allows it to operate optimally for X time frame. Agreed again.

You note that a bulb will run about 12 months just open air. I agree with that as well - as my Tek unit would start to need bulbs changed around month 11-12. My ATI fixture is actively cooled, however, which will add useable length to the bulb, and thus my 14-18 month bulb change strategy. Changing bulbs at 6 months is still a waste, regardless of what fixture they are in. As stated previously as well.

 

[jedimasterben]

I can't tell if you're arguing with me or agreeing with me from your post, as you seem to go on both sides of the fence with your thoughts. I'll paraphrase what you said with my thoughts afterwards.

A T5 will run for a long time. Agreed.

But it's spectral output only allows it to operate optimally for X time frame. Agreed again.

You note that a bulb will run about 12 months just open air. I agree with that as well - as my Tek unit would start to need bulbs changed around month 11-12. My ATI fixture is actively cooled, however, which will add useable length to the bulb, and thus my 14-18 month bulb change strategy. Changing bulbs at 6 months is still a waste, regardless of what fixture they are in. As stated previously as well.

The first line I was trying to make a little joke I'm not on either side of the fence (IMHO there really isn't one, it's more of a road with pit stops, one for incandescent, one for vapor, one for solid state, etc etc, eventually the entire lighting industry will have to pack up and move forward - for instance, it is illegal in several countries to produce, import, or sell incandescent lamps, and once there exists a simple and cheap drop-in solution to replace metal halide or HPS lamps in street lighting we'll see those lamps in the crosshairs).

Tek units are open-bottom so they don't need active cooling, but they also use rapid-start ballasts which degrades the phosphors (that's why any fixture or retro using cheap ballasts will lead to black marks on the ends of lamp, it is phosphor that is essentially burned off). An ATI fixture uses programmed start ballasts and active cooling and is where you'll get your 3-4,000 hour lifespan, the Tek unit won't be quite there due to the ballasts, and if one bought a splash guard for it, it would further reduce the lamp life. For more info on the ballast stuff, check here: http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/403576/5614590/1265215321607/Ballasts-Advance.pdf

I'm not trying to tell anyone that they HAVE to change their lamps at xx time but simply stating that realistically lamp life isn't that long for our purposes. Violet and blue lamps will also change much faster than daylight lamps, and in addition, it will be less noticeable on daylight lamps since they already are 'warmer' to the eye, so the spectral shift is less noticeable. As long as the intensity is still there, corals will continue to grow, they just may not look quite as good.

 

[Squamosa]

@Squamosa
Thanks for sharing your graphs. I'm amazed that your whites are that high, but apparently that's where they need to be. Do you have a tank thread?

What steps did you take to get your lights to the setting of where they are today?
I'm assuming you didn't just set them at that and just let them run.

I had a talk with Sanjay Joshi once about his switch to LED's (Radions in particular) and he said he ran all channels at 100% for a 12 000 K look, his results speak for themselves. I wanted the same, good growth and colour that was OK, however, the colour wasn't important to me, growing the reef out was. But, as you can see my colour ain't bad

I practice the DSR method of reefkeeping and have a thread on Glenn F's Dutch, DSR forum.
However, once again, lighting is just one part of a large puzzle and nutrient control, supplemental feeding and chemical additions are others.

I started the light schedule (I had to refer to my notes on this one) at my before and after 'high noon' stage, that mimics a 20 000 K Radium look and ran this schedule the whole day. The intensity was lower overall though, at 50%.
I then moved all channels to 100% and overall intensity to 50% from 10 AM- 4 PM.
The overall intensity was increased by 10%/month until I reached 90% and corals watched for signs of bleaching e.t.c. I have been running this schedule for 9 months.
I must add that 2 months after I reached the intensity you see now, I also increased my morning and afternoon 'blue' period intensity from 50-70% with no side effects.

Prior to all of this I used the first Gen 1 Radion and got great growth too, but not as fast as now.

I have noticed that my colonies now get lot's of shading, so I am toying with the idea of adding supplemental T5's to combat this.

When the Radions die out one day, I will move to a DIY unit and see if I can create a "monster" unit that will do it all, give growth and colour.
Here is a Monti growth comparison picture over ~1 month.

 

[jasonandsarah]

I had a talk with Sanjay Joshi once about his switch to LED's (Radions in particular) and he said he ran all channels at 100% for a 12 000 K look, his results speak for themselves. I wanted the same, good growth and colour that was OK, however, the colour wasn't important to me, growing the reef out was. But, as you can see my colour ain't bad

I practice the DSR method of reefkeeping and have a thread on Glenn F's Dutch, DSR forum.
However, once again, lighting is just one part of a large puzzle and nutrient control, supplemental feeding and chemical additions are others.

I started the light schedule (I had to refer to my notes on this one) at my before and after 'high noon' stage, that mimics a 20 000 K Radium look and ran this schedule the whole day. The intensity was lower overall though, at 50%.
I then moved all channels to 100% and overall intensity to 50% from 10 AM- 4 PM.
The overall intensity was increased by 10%/month until I reached 90% and corals watched for signs of bleaching e.t.c. I have been running this schedule for 9 months.
I must add that 2 months after I reached the intensity you see now, I also increased my morning and afternoon 'blue' period intensity from 50-70% with no side effects.

Prior to all of this I used the first Gen 1 Radion and got great growth too, but not as fast as now.

I have noticed that my colonies now get lot's of shading, so I am toying with the idea of adding supplemental T5's to combat this.

When the Radions die out one day, I will move to a DIY unit and see if I can create a "monster" unit that will do it all, give growth and colour.
Here is a Monti growth comparison picture over ~1 month.

Wow I thought the 100% on all channels was just the setting you had it on when you took your highest par rating.
Are you using the 120° Tir lenses? Or is this why you keep your light 10" off the water?
The Radions are so powerful I'd be scared to go all the way up to 100% on all channels, can't really argue with your growth though.
Lastly do you have any deep water acros? Red dragon or the like? Like to see some progression pics of some more Acropora if you have any? [emoji4]
the biggest colors that scare me to turn up all the way are the green and red, Next would be the 5w whites.

 

[hart24601]

Light is only one of many ingredients for acro

Yep, that's the take away message from my experiences. I think lighting is the easiest factor if you get adequate intensity of course. I will say that shading is a real issue people should consider with LEDs - it just generally means more money in fixtures or to be aware of it when you frag colonies so you can shape the colony for light penetration. I never like the "which is better conversations" or "convince me to go to _____". If someone like a particular lighting style then stick with it. If you are pretty ok with them all then look at the pros vs cons. Heck, the cheapest option is just to not have a tank, don't switch to lighting to something you don't like to save money! I have never thought that trying to duplicate the looks with another lighting source was a good idea. There is nothing wrong with LEDs looking different from MH or T5, just pick what you like the looks of and be happy.

 

[Squamosa]

Wow I thought the 100% on all channels was just the setting you had it on when you took your highest par rating.
Are you using the 120° Tir lenses? Or is this why you keep your light 10" off the water?
The Radions are so powerful I'd be scared to go all the way up to 100% on all channels, can't really argue with your growth though.
Lastly do you have any deep water acros? Red dragon or the like? Like to see some progression pics of some more Acropora if you have any? [emoji4]
the biggest colors that scare me to turn up all the way are the green and red, Next would be the 5w whites.

I use the stock 80 degree lenses the units came with and stuck with a recommendation for height above water that I read on the website....I think. But you are making me think about the 120° lenses, might give those a try to reduce the concentrated hot-spot.

I don't have any deep-water acro species as I can't get any here and to me, only species names are relevant not 'brand names'...sorry.

I am growing acro on the sand, 2 feet down though

Here are some more progression pics.
All 3 months growth!!

 

[felipe_mede]

 

[Gwitness]

I use the stock 80 degree lenses the units came with and stuck with a recommendation for height above water that I read on the website....I think. But you are making me think about the 120° lenses, might give those a try to reduce the concentrated hot-spot.

I don't have any deep-water acro species as I can't get any here and to me, only species names are relevant not 'brand names'...sorry.

I am growing acro on the sand, 2 feet down though

Here are some more progression pics.
All 3 months growth!!

I have 3 gen 3 pros on my 180 and I was wondering if you could post your light schedule so me or others could download it?

 

[Squamosa]

I have 3 gen 3 pros on my 180 and I was wondering if you could post your light schedule so me or others could download it?

I don't use ecosmart live because quite frankly I think it's junk and have always battled with it, instead I use the earlier program that came with the Gen 1's and it works for me!

I posted some screen grabs earlier on in this thread.

 

[luke33]

The last 5yrs I have exclusively ran led's over my tank. I'm a mixed reef guy but like sps mostly. The first two years with LED's I had awesome growth, I mean I could grow anything and it would grow as well as a MH or any T5 setup I've ran. My first fixture was a box fixture with 120 3w led's driven at 1.5w each. There was no only blue or dimming. The light had violet, blue, 3k, 6500k, couple red's as well. I ran these for two years and they worked great. Then the dimming and blue only came into play much more. So for the last 3 yrs or so I have switched to a few different fixture's and have had very inconsistent success. I believe all the dimming, colors out there, optics, programing has made it harder to find the correct spot for many of us. I think this is why everyone is hit or miss. As far as softies and lps go, I have never had issue's with led's and have actually done excellent with those. Its just the sps. At this point I'm done with led's and going back to a 8x80w ati sunpower. The 8yrs before the led's I ran t5 and mh. I can't wait to just have an on and off and not have to worry about any of the dimming and what not. I will miss the blue led ran by itself, but I purchased 4 36" blue led bars to solve that issue. LED's work great if you find the right mix and intensity. They are just a pain imo. Also the led circle's do give off hot spots and shadowing, which is another reason led's are hit or miss. One spot may have 800 par and 3" away is 125 par.

 

[hart24601]

Also the led circle's do give off hot spots and shadowing, which is another reason led's are hit or miss. One spot may have 800 par and 3" away is 125 par.

This is a great point, and I bought and placed my lighting with it in mind. I don't think if you have a proper number of fixtures at a good height there should be any hotspots or drastic dropoffs. I think that is from trying to cover too much area with one fixture, but of course the bummer part of that is that you need a lot more fixtures! Or strips like build my LED evenly spaced or fixtures like Triton Lani that cover the entire surface, but it all means more $$ than most people think initially.

 

[slip66]

I posted this in another thread:

I run 2x Kessil A360WE in shallow setup. I run my lights with a peak of 30% intensity during the day so take that into account.

I have seen growth and color on a number of sps. Not spectacular but I travel for work so the tank doesn't get the daily care required from time to time. I think it's mostly due to not maintaining calcium levels while I'm gone. You can grow sps under the brand of lights. Others have much better tanks and growth but for a 30 gallon shallow I'm happy with the progress. I have gotten color shifts on a few acans and at least two of my sps have shifted. Pink to green and a green to more red.

Here is a frag (bali slimmer)I took from a friend that wasn't doing well in his 200 gallon under a different LED manufacture ( well known). I suspect it was due more to phosphates than anything else. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/shallow reef/IMAG0577_zpsvtt0rfhv.jpg

Here is the same frag under mine. You can see that it is recovering nicely and encrusting again. Don't pay attention to the color as it's more pronounced since I used orange cellophane to cut down the blue light in this particular photo. It does have great color though in person. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/shallow reef/IMAG0653_zpsffepegfw.jpg

Look at the brown sps on the left rock near the bottom here, its nearly unnoticeable to your eye at first:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/shallow reef/IMAG0318_zpskn9w2boc.jpg
Same frag a few months later:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/shallow reef/IMAG0623_zpso5hcgdeh.jpg

Bansai: ( note the frag to the right, slow grower for me and it's shifting color to more red.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/shallow reef/IMAG0433_zpsidfx4ocn.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/growth tracking/IMAG0627_zpswdbq6enz.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/slip66/growth tracking/IMAG0686_zpstwks98gc.jpg

 

[msp307]

Long live EL 400 WT 20K RADIUM [emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12]

 

[kidtango]

Love the heat too? Lol

 

[msp307]

I have no chiller and live in Florida tank temp tops out at 81 degrees. No problems

 

[BkReefBaby]

I have no chiller and live in Florida tank temp tops out at 81 degrees. No problems

You floridians have that central AC running all day tho...in NYC that will cost you a huge Con Ed bill