0 nitrate, 0 phosphate, 0 problems. Anybody else has the same experience?

[Fritz05]

I know every tank is different, but I read so often how reefers have thriving tanks at all nitrate and phosphate levels. For years now Salifert and API show 0 nitrates and phosphates in my tank and softies, LPS, and SPS are doing well. I had some algae problems, but with patients, manual removal, a fluconazole treatment and adding macroalgae they are now gone. I do not purposefully run an ULNS, but am wondering who else has a similar experience? Are nitrates and phosphate levels even relevant?

 

[BristleWormHater]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Pod_01]

and adding macroalgae they are now gone.

As long as macroalgae is growing you have both N and P.

If you truly had zero P your corals would be dead and macroalgae as well. I suspect you have some fish, so feeding them always add N and P. Their waste contains N and P etc…

I be curious to see pictures of the SPS in zero N and P if available…
My experience with truly zero P were dead corals.

 

[BristleWormHater]

I know every tank is different, but I read so often how reefers have thriving tanks at all nitrate and phosphate levels. For years now Salifert and API show 0 nitrates and phosphates in my tank and softies, LPS, and SPS are doing well. I had some algae problems, but with patients, manual removal, a fluconazole treatment and adding macroalgae they are now gone. I do not purposefully run an ULNS, but am wondering who else has a similar experience? Are nitrates and phosphate levels even relevant?

You might just have tight running system, those nutrients are entering the water and then they get used by macroalgae and coral before they can build up a register on a test.

 

[Dan_P]

I know every tank is different, but I read so often how reefers have thriving tanks at all nitrate and phosphate levels. For years now Salifert and API show 0 nitrates and phosphates in my tank and softies, LPS, and SPS are doing well. I had some algae problems, but with patients, manual removal, a fluconazole treatment and adding macroalgae they are now gone. I do not purposefully run an ULNS, but am wondering who else has a similar experience? Are nitrates and phosphate levels even relevant?

What do you feed the coral?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

API showing zero phosphate is not really particularly dramatic. It does not read low phosphate nearly as well as some kits. The lowest nonzero color in the card is 0.25 ppm. My entire recommended range of 0.02 to 0.1 ppm would likely read as zero.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That said, nitrate and phosphate are not the only sources of N and P. In normal reef water, nitrate and phosphate are close to undetectable with hobby kits.

Other sources of N and P include ammonia, and many types of organics, both dissolved and particulate. Early recommendations of nitrate and phosphate in reef tanks (very low) often failed to be adequate in many cases because the ocean has much more of these outer sources than do most (but not all) reef tanks.

I discuss the ammonia vs nitrate issue extensively here:

Ammonia is Our Friend!

Ammonia is Our Friend By Randy Holmes-Farley Yes, I know the title is provocative, and likely goes against much of what you read and hear in the reef aquarium hobby. I believe, however, that the hobby may have been harmed by the continual...

www.reef2reef.com

some tidbits from it:

While measuring a detectable level of nitrate in a reef aquarium can be very useful to ensure there is some source of N available for corals, one should not assume that corals are primarily using that source since there are other sources that they may prefer to use (and actually be using).

...

Recently, I have been suggesting that folks with low nitrate (less than a few ppm) consider dosing ammonia using ammonia bicarbonate. The results have been generally positive, and I currently recommend it over dosing nitrate.

 

[rishma]

People do get away with zero detectable nitrate and happy corals because of other nitrogen sources. While I suppose it’s possible, I have not seen any healthy tanks with truly zero phosphate for extended periods of time.

I expect the explanation is as Randy noted, phosphate is not zero it’s just a test kit accuracy issue.

 

[CHSUB]

do not purposefully run an ULNS, but am wondering who else has a similar experience? Are nitrates and phosphate levels even relevant?

Imo, most experienced reefers would confirm your thoughts. While the levels are relevant the idea of an aquarium with fed fish lacking nutrients, specifically N, and confirmed with hobby test kits is almost laughable. With Salifert and Hanna I almost always get 0.0 and a recent lab test confirmed I have plenty. Going back to the 90’s I have always wanted 0.0 no3 on hobby test kits and never once thought N was lacking. Having readable no3 is a “new” thing because many aquacultured corals can tolerate high levels.

 

[CHSUB]

As long as macroalgae is growing you have both N and P.

If you truly had zero P your corals would be dead and macroalgae as well. I suspect you have some fish, so feeding them always add N and P. Their waste contains N and P etc…

I be curious to see pictures of the SPS in zero N and P if available…
My experience with truly zero P were dead corals.

You post struggling SPS, while other corals appear fine? If lacking nutrients all coral would be suffering, no?

 

[IceNein]

You post struggling SPS, while other corals appear fine? If lacking nutrients all coral would be suffering, no?

I don't know this for a truth, but it's possible that softies and corals with larger polyps might have an internal reserve of nutrients that they can use before showing negative results. It's also possible that they're better at up taking nutrients, so that whatever N and P is available in the water column gets absorbed by them before the SPS get a chance?

I honestly don't know, but we do know that SPS are "more finicky" and either of those reasons could be the solution.

 

[Pod_01]

You post struggling SPS, while other corals appear fine? If lacking nutrients all coral would be suffering, no?

They did, some took lot longer to perish. From my experience SPS namely acros/ montiporas tend to show P starvation first. Actually birdsnest corals are first to go…

When I took those pictures I knew what I was doing, GFO, Al absorbers and the idea was to drive PO4 to zero. It was recommended on this site…

These days my PO4 is 0.1-0.2 and no GFO or other methods to control it. Things are better.

On the other hand NO3 I don’t think is as critical. Ammonia is what seems to work well.

 

[CHSUB]

I don't know this for a truth, but it's possible that softies and corals with larger polyps might have an internal reserve of nutrients that they can use before showing negative results. It's also possible that they're better at up taking nutrients, so that whatever N and P is available in the water column gets absorbed by them before the SPS get a chance?

I honestly don't know, but we do know that SPS are "more finicky" and either of those reasons could be the solution.

Correct, but I do know SPS grow in the most nutrient poor environments and are very capable of food capture. Imo, nutrient deficiency deaths are blamed far to often because it’s easy to test no3 and po4.

 

[CHSUB]

When I took those pictures I knew what I was doing, GFO, Al absorbers and the idea was to drive PO4 to zero. It was recommended on this site…

I can go back to books written before the internet, po4 @ true 0 has never been recommended. I don’t think life, as we know it, can exist without “P”? Maybe that is the problem with sites like this….bad advice?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, no one can point to any tank or the ocean to claim that nitrate and phosphate are not needed at kit detectable levels in any other tank to satisfy any organisms they happen to keep.

No one knows how much N and P in any tank is coming from the many different sources those tanks have, and how they vary tank to tank.

 

[Miami Reef]

Let's not use hyperbole to try to make points. It weakens the argument.

I looked through the posts, but I don’t think I read any hyperbole. Was it removed?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I looked through the posts, but I don’t think I read any hyperbole. Was it removed?

I removed my hyperbole comment before I saw you quoted it, since I decided to not focus on that term since it may not be the best use of the word.

That said, recommendations for zero phosphate in a reef aquarium setting are clearly talking about zero detectable phosphate with the kits that are (or were) available at the time the statement was made.

Back when undetectable was standard recommendation, 0.02 ppm phosphate was mostly undetectable. I had a Salifert kit and I could just barely see 0.03 ppm on a good day. It does not mean, and was never intended to mean, 0.00000000000000000000000000000000 ppm phosphate. That's the point CHSUB is also making.

 

[Miami Reef]

Oh, I definitely agree. We have studies that show phosphate deficiencies can cause coral bleaching.

There’s no harm in keeping PO4 at least 0.02ppm, even if you feed heavy. It’s good insurance.

It’s important to look at the nuances.

Natural seawater has low inorganic nutrients , but there are lots of prey and organics. If you just lower nutrients in your tank, you’ll likely starve corals without enough feedings.

Tanks in the old days did well with low nutrients because their kits didn’t detect low levels and they didn’t have tools like GFO that can tank PO4. Thus, the nutrients were likely never truly undetectable, nor as low as people thought they were.

 

[Joe.D]

Interesting and timely thread for me. I recently installed a ReefMat and ever since my N and P were 0 or very low on Hanna test kits. I’ve started dosing NeoPhos again and it’s now up to 3, P is .01. I’ve looked at some old threads on this.

Most of my corals look fine, though my Acans and a ricordea mushroom are struggling to open up much.

 

[Fritz05]

I know my tank does not have zero phosphate and nitrate, I admit the title was chosen for dramatic effect! But as I am not feeding my corals more than every couple of weeks (Reef Roids), I was wondering how I can be so lucky as to apparently always have enough nutrients for my corals without the levels ever increasing. I am not advocating for low (or high) levels of nutrients.

As for pictures: My stylophora went from one 2-inch frag (bottom pic) to multiple larger frags within 2 years, birdsnest is also growing nicely, if much slower (I moved it to the front). The newer picture also shows my frogspawn and hammer coral, microalgae and a toadstool.