0 phosphate and carbon dosing questions

Doc’sReef

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Hello,

I started a new tank on August 17th 2024 using Caribsea liferock as well as about 10lbs of Carib sea ocean direct sand and 5 lbs of miracle mud.
I used bacteria and ammonia to cycle the tank which went great.
I am carbon dosing the tank, initially I used elimi NP from TM after I added livestock and began feeding. I initially thought I had reached my equilibrium and I then switched to TM NP Bacto balance which is intended to dose a small amount of NP to prevent bottoming out and is their maintenance Carbon dosing product after using Elimi NP. Unfortunately given the dry rock I have been bottoming out on my phosphate readings on multiple occasions and it’s been difficult to predict the direction and dosing. I find trying to increase feedings alone to be imprecise of a means to gauge what phosphate level I get and I don’t want to risk being at 0.00 ppm. I don’t want to be a number chaser but I also don’t want to be at 0.00 lol!
I tried using TM’s Phosfeed which is a particulate phosphate that acts as a coral “food” when running low phosphates but from what I have read isn’t intended to substantially raise phosphate levels in the water but is a supplemental feeding for corals so they don’t starve at such low levels. Since in the wild corals can thrive in rather low levels of phosphate, It is said to mimic a school of fish suddenly defecating over a reef as they pass by. But please correct me if I’m wrong isn’t that organic phosphate and isn’t this product inorganic in its composition.
I did purchase Neophos but only tried it for 3 days so far as a means of raising my measurable phosphate in the water column.
I did some more reading last night and stumbled onto posts related to Trisodium phosphate which I was intending to use in place of Neophos. I ordered a food grade additive made by Prescribed For Life off Amazon.
I never started a tank with all dry rock and I understand the phosphate is likely being bound up into the dry aragonite at this point. Thinking back to days where I had to run GFO to get rid of phosphate I must admit I felt a degree of trepidation to actually add phosphate on purpose, but times have changed lol.
As of this morning my nitrate is at 8.4ppm and phosphate is at 0.00ppm on my Hanna. NP Trident says 13ppm and 0.03 respectively.
I have ordered a Hanna phosphorus checker to get a bit more accuracy on my phosphate level.

My questions are;
I looked up the calculator on James’s planted site. I see the Phosphate dosing from potassium phosphate. Do I need to correct for this ?
Essentially I mix up the Trisodium phosphate at 1.88g per 1000ml, 1 ml will offer a 0.01ppm increase to my 65gal tank’s water level or is Trisodium slightly weaker and needs to be corrected for when dosing?
How high of an increase should I aim for on my initial dose in ppm of phosphate since I’m at 0.00 now and should I add it slowly or all at once? Should I test every 24 hours and titrate my daily Trisodium phosphate dose based off that level of consumption or does is there a lag time that can cause a sudden spike in levels ? I don’t want to shock my corals with a spike of course.


The other question I have is related to carbon dosing. Should I completely discontinue carbon dosing or just titrate down. I know at this juncture being phosphate depleted carbon dosing will be limited but once I begin adding phosphate should I resume right away at a lower dose for wait a few days? My nitrate is ok right now but my concern was looking ahead if I completely discontinue carbon dosing and the potential escalation in nitrate. I didn’t want to chase that with water changes to further lower my water phosphate level should it raise.
In regards to my carbon source the TM Elimi NP has no additional NP additive but the NP Bacto Balance does have some “small” undefined amount. Would that be the safer of the two that I have or would that confound things further when adding phosphate making it harder to know how much I’m adding in addition to the Trisodium phosphate; or perhaps my level being so low already it would be negligible?

Sorry for the long winded post but I appreciate your time and input greatly!
 

Reefahholic

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Essentially I mix up the Trisodium phosphate at 1.88g per 1000ml, 1 ml will offer a 0.01ppm increase to my 65gal tank’s water level or is Trisodium slightly weaker and needs to be corrected for when dosing?

Reduce by 23% or multiply your product amount by 0.77.


I would stop the carbon dosing if your bottoming out P. Get the P up to a healthy level, let the tank stabilize, then you can resume later.
 
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Doc’sReef

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Thank you for your reply!

Since I’m at 0.00ppm how much should I start with? Would aiming for 0.03 ppm increase on my first go be too much?
Sorry if this is a dumb question but I don’t want to nuke my tank in the opposite direction. I was wondering is it possible for the phosphate bound in the rock to suddenly cause a spike in the tank water phosphate level as It releases bound phosphate when we begin dosing?
Should I l dose as a bolus or break it up?
I was hoping to do dose once a day and perform a test 24 hours later and retest and if I still see I’m at 0.00 increase the dose each day? Is that an acceptable approach when doing this or is there a lag in how long it takes to equilibrate between the rock and water?

Thanks a lot!
 

Reefahholic

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Since I’m at 0.00ppm how much should I start with? Would aiming for 0.03 ppm increase on my first go be too much?

That’s fine, usually if manually dosing raise by .02 ppm daily, but you can do a little more. It’s better to spread out on a pump if you need to dose a large amount to maintain your target level.

If Nitrate raise by 1 ppm daily.
 

Reefahholic

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I was hoping to do dose once a day and perform a test 24 hours later and retest and if I still see I’m at 0.00 increase the dose each day?
Yes, that is ok. Dose the .02 ppm, then test the next day at same time just before you dose again.

I was wondering is it possible for the phosphate bound in the rock to suddenly cause a spike in the tank water phosphate level as It releases bound phosphate when we begin dosing?
If you’re needing to dose P in the first place, it’s extremely unlikely the rock will have any bound P that will leach out when you start dosing. Probably a zero percent chance unless this is completely new rock that was just added to the system.

If you dose too aggressively and saturate the rock or sand too quickly…that’s when you’ll see some funky fluctuations occur. It’s best to go slow and test daily until you hit the target.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thank you for your reply!

Since I’m at 0.00ppm how much should I start with? Would aiming for 0.03 ppm increase on my first go be too much?

No. It will likely take much more to even attain a stable 0.03 ppm.
 
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Doc’sReef

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Thank you for taking the time to provide your inputs and advice, I really appreciate it!
I dosed 5ml of Trisodium phosphate last night and my phosphate was still 0.00ppm this morning however nitrate dropped to 2.ppm which I assume was metabolized by the microbiome as it was phosphate limited with my prior carbon dosing and probably taken up my the aragonite as well. This is a testament to the advice you both had provided regarding the amount of phosphate needed. I guess this is a trial and error process of dosing and testing until I find a steady state of saturation. If only there was a way to calculate a bolus dose to reach your saturation point based on tank volume and lbs of rock/substrate.
Phosphate cycling dry rock is far more tedious than the nitrogen cycle! I miss having live rock for sure after this experience.
Thank you again!
 

reefluvrr

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I am curious if you have much livestock in your tank right now?
I would have suspected feeding your fishes should have brought up the phosphates.

My carbon dosing experience has been to start carbon dosing when I have phosphate and nitrogen/nitrate levels in my tank. So I would agree to decrease carbon dosing as an idea.
 

Hemmbone20

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Good timing… I was just about to ask a question about my phosphates as well…

Similar situation, newish tank (2.5 months old), dry rock start (seeded with LR rubble), can’t seem to maintain healthy phosphate levels. I haven’t dosed yet but wondering if I should… last check I did I was getting a reading of 0.01ppm on my Hanna checker.
 
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Doc’sReef

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I have a pretty generous amount of livestock and I do feed generously. I’ve been dosing benepets and reef roids daily to help encourage phosphate into the tank but since it’s not as precise as dosing phosphate I came to the point where I felt it would be beneficial to go that route.
I guess my microbiome is pretty saturated at this point as the nitrates went down after I added phosphate yesterday. I assume that between the use of fresh rock and carbon dosing I created a significant imbalance in available phosphate. I must confess my ignorance when it comes to dry man made rock and phosphate as I’ve never used it before and did not take that into account when I started this tank. It’s a lesson learned and I hope someone out there will benefit from this. I only considered the nitrogen cycle initially and not the influence of dry rock. I did have detectable phosphates going starting 2.5-3 weeks ago but I guess once I started to add carbon dosing and livestock coupled with feeding I created an imbalance as the phosphate I began to add through feeding along with carbon dosing were not in harmony with the rock is my assumption at this point.
 
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Doc’sReef

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Good timing… I was just about to ask a question about my phosphates as well…

Similar situation, newish tank (2.5 months old), dry rock start (seeded with LR rubble), can’t seem to maintain healthy phosphate levels. I haven’t dosed yet but wondering if I should… last check I did I was getting a reading of 0.01ppm on my Hanna checker.
Sorry to hear you’re also in this situation! I hope things turn around for the better for you!
I know a lot of dry rock companies claim to have dormant bacteria in them. I believe the caribsea liferock I used made that claim. I wonder if there is any dry rock that can be manufactured pre seeded with phosphate so that when your nitrogen cycling the rock and new tank you get less of a phosphate imbalance. I don’t know if that is a viable idea but just a thought I had after this experience but perhaps someone with more knowledge could refute or clarify this. I wish I knew about this issue with dry rock so I took it into account during my cycling rather than after adding livestock and carbon dosing.
 

Hemmbone20

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Sorry to hear you’re also in this situation! I hope things turn around for the better for you!
I know a lot of dry rock companies claim to have dormant bacteria in them. I believe the caribsea liferock I used made that claim. I wonder if there is any dry rock that can be manufactured pre seeded with phosphate so that when your nitrogen cycling the rock and new tank you get less of a phosphate imbalance. I don’t know if that is a viable idea but just a thought I had after this experience but perhaps someone with more knowledge could refute or clarify this. I wish I knew about this issue with dry rock so I took it into account during my cycling rather than after adding livestock and carbon dosing.
I just ordered some NeoPhos on Amazon that I’ll try later this week… I assume at some point the rock will stop absorbing the PO4 and there is a potential the numbers will rise. Just don’t know when that will be.

My nitrates are steady around 5ppm and I’ve been keeping a close eye for Dino’s but since I do have 0.01 PO4 they’ve managed to stay away. In the meantime I’ve been feeding my corals AB+ to make sure they have some nutrients.
 

Reefahholic

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Good timing… I was just about to ask a question about my phosphates as well…

Similar situation, newish tank (2.5 months old), dry rock start (seeded with LR rubble), can’t seem to maintain healthy phosphate levels. I haven’t dosed yet but wondering if I should… last check I did I was getting a reading of 0.01ppm on my Hanna checker.

Definitely feed more or dose. Low P really jacks up and new tank. I’d bring it up to .08 minimal!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I just ordered some NeoPhos on Amazon that I’ll try later this week…

For future orders, if needed, I recommend food grade sodium phosphate rather than neophos. The food product is much less expensive and carries a purity assurance the hobby product lacks.
 
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Doc’sReef

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For future orders, if needed, I recommend food grade sodium phosphate rather than neophos. The food product is much less expensive and carries a purity assurance the hobby product lacks.
Which nitrate supplement do you suggest to use in conjunction with trisodium phosphate?
My nitrates have decreased significantly since I started using the Trisodium phosphate supplement. I’ve not carbon dosed since my phosphate plummeted, but I guess there was a lot of hungry microbes that sprung back into action when I added phosphate.
Do you suggest sodium nitrate for this ?
When attempting to make the stock solution do you have a formula in grams/liter to follow like with the phosphate that I can use to get a predictable dose in ppm?
Lastly would you dose the N/P in a particular ratio?
Thanks so much!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Which nitrate supplement do you suggest to use in conjunction with trisodium phosphate?
My nitrates have decreased significantly since I started using the Trisodium phosphate supplement. I’ve not carbon dosed since my phosphate plummeted, but I guess there was a lot of hungry microbes that sprung back into action when I added phosphate.
Do you suggest sodium nitrate for this ?
When attempting to make the stock solution do you have a formula in grams/liter to follow like with the phosphate that I can use to get a predictable dose in ppm?
Lastly would you dose the N/P in a particular ratio?
Thanks so much!

In most tanks, I actually think ammonia dosing may be a better bet, but if one wants to dose nitrate, the best choices are food grades of sodium or calcium nitrate.


For phosphate dosing, use this calculator and the entry for potassium phospahte. it is close enough to sodium phosphate. You can elect your own concentrations in it.


I would not dose N and P in a ratio, but based on tank demand. :)
 
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Doc’sReef

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I
In most tanks, I actually think ammonia dosing may be a better bet, but if one wants to dose nitrate, the best choices are food grades of sodium or calcium nitrate.


For phosphate dosing, use this calculator and the entry for potassium phospahte. it is close enough to sodium phosphate. You can elect your own concentrations in it.


I would not dose N and P in a ratio, but based on tank demand. :)
Thank you for the information!
I have the following product on hand. Would it be ok to add a small amount of the MB quickcycl as a stop gap until I get delivery of a pure form?
I’m only asking as my trident gave me a Nitrate of 0.00 this morning. They state it’s contains aluminum chloride and I have it on hand from when I did my cycle. I do plan to retest my nitrate with my Hanna as well but was hoping to not stay at 0ppm until I get a more suitable alternative.

I initially was considering this product from Amazon regarding nitrate supplementation.


Thank you again for your time and help!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thank you for the information!
I have the following product on hand. Would it be ok to add a small amount of the MB quickcycl as a stop gap until I get delivery of a pure form?
I’m only asking as my trident gave me a Nitrate of 0.00 this morning. They state it’s contains aluminum chloride and I have it on hand from when I did my cycle. I do plan to retest my nitrate with my Hanna as well but was hoping to not stay at 0ppm until I get a more suitable alternative.

I initially was considering this product from Amazon regarding nitrate supplementation.


Thank you again for your time and help!

If this is an established tank, I would NOT add bacteria. That is defeating the purpose of adding ammonia rather than nitrate. :)

If there is a rush for some reason (say, dinos beginning to appear), I'd add nitrate directly.
 
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Doc’sReef

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It is actually supposed to be an ammonium chloride supplement but goes on to state with “balanced phosphates and nitrates”. It’s intended to be used as a means of starting a nitrogen cycle in a fishless method. I have it on hand from when I did my tank cycle and so out of shear desperation I was contemplating its use. I know it’s not of a defined purity and it’s hard I would imagine to advise on a dosage. I was considering a very conservative amount of it as 0.00ppm of nitrate is also detrimental. It says to use 1ml/5gal to start the cycle I was wondering if perhaps using just 0.5ml would offer some albeit undefined benefit while I wait for that faithful amazon truck to stop by my house yet again lol.
 

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