#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

[brandon429]

they will not die, you can add the coralline spores.

they come with cycling bac included on each bottle I have seen anyway, and it wouldn't be possible to culture coralline spores/flecks of actual coralline and separate them from filtration bacteria attached to them anyway. by rule, where goes coralline cycle bacteria already went.

 

[brandon429]

testing the utility of this thread beyond just theory:

show me ten reef tanks with bad algae before, who fixed algae by managing ammonia in any way.

 

[sixty_reefer]

testing the utility of this thread beyond just theory:

show me ten reef tanks with bad algae before, who fixed algae by managing ammonia in any way.

Isn’t “rip clean” one of many ways to remove compounds that release ammonia? Maybe look at some of your work threads

 

[MnFish1]

testing the utility of this thread beyond just theory:

show me ten reef tanks with bad algae before, who fixed algae by managing ammonia in any way.

IMHO - there are so many variables that go into algae growth - that trying to manage it with 'nutrient measurements' is impossible. Why? Because -even with "0" ammonia, there can still be a lot of algae in a tank. So - the measurement becomes useless. Second ammonia is utilized (as far as I know) much more rapidly by bacteria in a tank - as compared to algae - bacteria - especially heterotrophs grow much faster than algae. So - a '0 ammonia' just means that bacteria and some algae are using it up at the same rate it's being produced. 3. Algae don't JUST use ammonia - they can also use nitrates (which is why we have algae reactors - that reduce nitrates). 4. I'm not sure you can 'manage' ammonia - except by having no fish, or other feeding, etc. So the question you're asking is impossible. But again - my guess is that if you took 10 tanks filled with algae - that were fed just with ammonia. If you stopped feeding ammonia, the algae would decrease (some). Of course this would be quite a boring aquarium - since there would be no invertebrates of fish.

 

[sixty_reefer]

IMHO - there are so many variables that go into algae growth - that trying to manage it with 'nutrient measurements' is impossible. Why? Because -even with "0" ammonia, there can still be a lot of algae in a tank. So - the measurement becomes useless. Second ammonia is utilized (as far as I know) much more rapidly by bacteria in a tank - as compared to algae - bacteria - especially heterotrophs grow much faster than algae. So - a '0 ammonia' just means that bacteria and some algae are using it up at the same rate it's being produced. 3. Algae don't JUST use ammonia - they can also use nitrates (which is why we have algae reactors - that reduce nitrates). 4. I'm not sure you can 'manage' ammonia - except by having no fish, or other feeding, etc. So the question you're asking is impossible. But again - my guess is that if you took 10 tanks filled with algae - that were fed just with ammonia. If you stopped feeding ammonia, the algae would decrease (some). Of course this would be quite a boring aquarium - since there would be no invertebrates of fish.

I will have to disagree with some of what you said, I recently learned that heterotrophic bacteria can’t use ammonia directly, they can reduce ammonia only by reducing organic matter, less organics matter = to less organics decomposing in a system releasing ammonia. In addition ammonia is always present in a system although the levels are often so low that one could only determine the amount by using spectrophotometry.
the main users of ammonia are nitrifying bacteria and all photosynthetic organisms. This can be explained further if you wish to discuss it

 

[brandon429]

I was legit interested in ways to fix algae for large tanks not involving a rip clean/ impractical for large tankers.

fluconazole can do it/per the 600 page thread/but it's downside is 490 pages of tradeoff dinos and cyano invasion for the same # of months the GHA originally held. I'd like to see the pros and cons of this particular management approach to algae. at page 12/we have none/let's get someone trying it to watch for outcome trending.

 

[MnFish1]

I will have to disagree with some of what you said, I recently learned that heterotrophic bacteria can’t use ammonia directly, they can reduce ammonia only by reducing organic matter, less organics matter = to less organics decomposing in a system releasing ammonia. In addition ammonia is always present in a system although the levels are often so low that one could only determine the amount by using spectrophotometry.
the main users of ammonia are nitrifying bacteria and all photosynthetic organisms. This can be explained further if you wish to discuss it

Sure - where did you learn it? EDIT - PS - either way - they reduce organic matter far faster than algae would use ammonia, right?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I was legit interested in ways to fix algae for large tanks not involving a rip clean/ impractical for large tankers.

bacterial “rip clean” can be used in any size tank, your normal method of cleaning a tank has some science to it if you were to try and research it, if you were to do it, you would learn that the same can be done by stimulating heterotrophic bacteria with the “right” type of carbon source.

 

[brandon429]

Sixty, if you will build and manager using other people's tank a 50 page work thread showing carbon dosing attaining this same outcome, we'll be set:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

we need solely other people's reefs in the work thread, none can be the author's

what carbon dosing will get you in a large work thread designed to fix algae is a big huge mess, and 5% lucky algae cures/is the bet.


***I still want something other than rip cleans to work, honestly large tankers can't practically run those. we only get several large tanks there because they're either moving or upgrading/forced to deep dive in.

that's solid algae control above as a side pattern from having to deep dive into reefs.



agreed on prior science existing: backflusing filters at zoos and marine parks is rip cleaning a filter using no bottle bac and ejecting all waste. we've been backflushing reefs this whole time vs filters

 

[MnFish1]

.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Sure - where did you learn it? EDIT - PS - either way - they reduce organic matter far faster than algae would use ammonia, right?

Right, using certain carbon sources we can stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposers that will reduce ammonia by trapping nutrients into their body mass. I’ve learned on that experience that I was doing on the research forum, not posted results as some folks were being annoying. There is also a peer reviewed paper from biofloc that goes further on the details

 

[MnFish1]

I will have to disagree with some of what you said, I recently learned that heterotrophic bacteria can’t use ammonia directly, they can reduce ammonia only by reducing organic matter, less organics matter = to less organics decomposing in a system releasing ammonia. In addition ammonia is always present in a system although the levels are often so low that one could only determine the amount by using spectrophotometry.
the main users of ammonia are nitrifying bacteria and all photosynthetic organisms. This can be explained further if you wish to discuss it

PS: "At high carbon to nitrogen (C/N) feed ratios, heterotrophic bacteria will assimilate ammonia–nitrogen directly into cellular protein." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004484860600216X

 

[MnFish1]

Right, using certain carbon sources we can stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposers that will reduce ammonia by trapping nutrients into their body mass. I’ve learned on that experience that I was doing on the research forum, not posted results as some folks were being annoying. There is also a peer reviewed paper from biofloc that goes further on the details

There are also heterotrophic bacteria that are not just 'decomposers'. In a sense all bacteria are decomposers. Point being - I don't think you can say that the only way heterotrophs use ammonia is by decomposing organic material (which implies - to me), detritus, etc - as compared to carbon compounds dissolved in the water. Right?

 

[MnFish1]

Right, using certain carbon sources we can stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposers that will reduce ammonia by trapping nutrients into their body mass. I’ve learned on that experience that I was doing on the research forum, not posted results as some folks were being annoying. There is also a peer reviewed paper from biofloc that goes further on the details

No - thats not what the article says. It says ammonia can be directly incorporated into proteins. It does not say trapping nutrients and converting it to ammonia - with certain C/N parameters. Of course - ammonia has to be produced by 'something', right? probably other bacteria and decomposing 'stuff' or fish waste. But - the point is - if you add heterotrophic bacteria to a tank - as shown in @Dr. Reef 's experiments with ammonia and a PO4 source - the ammonia level drops.

 

[brandon429]

@Fish_Sticks

can you begin finding invasion help threads, directing them to this thread, then managing them here live time using this approach pls

 

[sixty_reefer]

There are also heterotrophic bacteria that are not just 'decomposers'. In a sense all bacteria are decomposers. Point being - I don't think you can say that the only way heterotrophs use ammonia is by decomposing organic material (which implies - to me), detritus, etc - as compared to carbon compounds dissolved in the water. Right?

That’s the problem in trying to explain this to folks that are used to carbon dose to lower no3 and po4, if a source of organic carbon is used it will stimulate decomposer over nitrate oxidising bacteria if dissolved organic carbon is used it will stimulate nitrate oxidising bacteria over decomposers, different types of carbon and different stages will stimulate different heterotrophic bacteria.
depending on the end goal the carbon source has to be changed, for example we cannot use ethanol to stimulate decomposers although we can use carbohydrates for that.

mas you mentioned organic carbon will eventually dissolve in water and stimulate nitrate oxidising heterotrophic bacteria, this is a double end sword kind of situation as to lower organic nutrients with carbon eventually one will by effect lower nitrates and some phosphates although it’s fairly easily corrected by dosing nitrates

 

[MnFish1]

That’s the problem in trying to explain this to folks that are used to carbon dose to lower no3 and po4, if a source of organic carbon is used it will stimulate decomposer over nitrate oxidising bacteria if dissolved organic carbon is used it will stimulate nitrate oxidising bacteria over decomposers, different types of carbon and different stages will stimulate different heterotrophic bacteria.
depending on the end goal the carbon source has to be changed, for example we cannot use ethanol to stimulate decomposers although we can use carbohydrates for that.

mas you mentioned organic carbon will eventually dissolve in water and stimulate nitrate oxidising heterotrophic bacteria, this is a double end sword kind of situation as to lower organic nutrients with carbon eventually one will by effect lower nitrates and some phosphates although it’s fairly easily corrected by dosing nitrates

My point was - I think - given all the variables - its next to impossible to rid a tank of algae using bacteria. CNP ratios, etc. IMHO - if you rank the importance of all of these things - unless it's an extremely dirty tank, the causes would be 1) Too much free surface area. 2) The lack of natural predators. 3) poor water/maintenence in general - and 4 distantly behind - a certain ratio of CNP. How to prove that? If you take one of those really nice show tanks - covered with SPS, and very little light getting to the rock below - does nuisance algae grow? Not in my experience. It is tanks with 10 small frags - and 100x bare rock where algae is much more of a problem.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Sixty, if you will build and manager using other people's tank a 50 page work thread showing carbon dosing attaining this same outcome, we'll be set:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

we need solely other people's reefs in the work thread, none can be the author's

what carbon dosing will get you in a large work thread designed to fix algae is a big huge mess, and 5% lucky algae cures/is the bet.


***I still want something other than rip cleans to work, honestly large tankers can't practically run those. we only get several large tanks there because they're either moving or upgrading/forced to deep dive in.

that's solid algae control above as a side pattern from having to deep dive into reefs.



agreed on prior science existing: backflusing filters at zoos and marine parks is rip cleaning a filter using no bottle bac and ejecting all waste. we've been backflushing reefs this whole time vs filters

I prefer to work on my own system, I wouldn’t trust for folks with limited knowledge (no offence) to understand something so complicated.

 

[brandon429]

you mean they might not trust you to work their systems? you wouldn't have any trust issues unless it was your tank needing help


it seems a work thread with repeating outcomes using other people's systems is the best way to define knowledge vs luck

its not possible to go for fifty pages on luck.

 

[MnFish1]

I prefer to work on my own system, I wouldn’t trust for folks with limited knowledge (no offence) to understand something so complicated.

@brandon429 there is no question that 'rip cleaning' will help with algae growth. No one is saying it won't. Looking through the 'work threads' you posted above, What I would like you to do is to go through all of those posts - and figure out what percent of them look the same after 3 years? I mean - if you have algae on your glass - and you clean it - it's clean - great it will not be clean 6 weeks later. You have to have some kind of intervention. I think what @sixty_reefer is trying to do is to show the 'intervention.