45 Day Fallow periods

chipchipmofo

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No - you cannot dose peroxide high enough to kill the resting tomont stages without harming your invertebrates. Peroxide will kill the theront stages, but those only live about 48 hours without a fish host.
Jay
thanks for your help, Jay!
 
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chipchipmofo

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No - you cannot dose peroxide high enough to kill the resting tomont stages without harming your invertebrates. Peroxide will kill the theront stages, but those only live about 48 hours without a fish host.
Jay
Just for my understanding..
the 78 days are always the same.. no matter what size of the tank?
My temp. in my nano 20g is always a bit "lower", I mean around 24.7 degrees celsius.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Just for my understanding..
the 78 days are always the same.. no matter what size of the tank?
My temp. in my nano 20g is always a bit "lower", I mean around 24.7 degrees celsius.
This issue actually is that "fallow periods" are all a guess based off of one paper written decades ago. The size of the tank shouldn't matter, it is the starting biomass of the tomonts that would matter. Temperature does seem to come into play, warmer = shorter fallow periods. Your nano isn't that cold, so the standard 76 days would likely work,

Jay
 

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So I lost all my coral when my tank hit 93 lost half of my fish stock but I will say my pbt was covered with ich the night before the next day they all dropped off and he looked great. Now fast forward a month after and I was gone two weeks for the holidays and he’s covered again. I just decided to go fallow. My snails mostly are still alive so I’m jumping it up to 80.8-81.3 I’m also restocking the coral and will have my last bit until after fallow next week as I have some fish coming in as well. I’m at 1.5 in copper power would adding two fire fish and a pintail wrasse to that level be ok? They are coming form .5 copper levels or should I place in my coral qt that is housing my mandrine and wait the 45 days for my dt to be done and my fish be in qt at 2.0 starting today be better? Also what’s a good thing for the mandrine? I only have one heater and a 2 gallon extra tank that’s used for baths left.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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So I lost all my coral when my tank hit 93 lost half of my fish stock but I will say my pbt was covered with ich the night before the next day they all dropped off and he looked great. Now fast forward a month after and I was gone two weeks for the holidays and he’s covered again. I just decided to go fallow. My snails mostly are still alive so I’m jumping it up to 80.8-81.3 I’m also restocking the coral and will have my last bit until after fallow next week as I have some fish coming in as well. I’m at 1.5 in copper power would adding two fire fish and a pintail wrasse to that level be ok? They are coming form .5 copper levels or should I place in my coral qt that is housing my mandrine and wait the 45 days for my dt to be done and my fish be in qt at 2.0 starting today be better? Also what’s a good thing for the mandrine? I only have one heater and a 2 gallon extra tank that’s used for baths left.

I'm sorry - I cannot follow those details of your question. Can you break it down into a simply format? I don't understand where the 2 gallon tank comes into play. I would not buy new corals or new fish while you are trying to sort out an issue like this, it just adds uncertainty to everything. 1.5 with Copper Power is too low, you need to get to 2.0. The wrasse and and firefish can tolerate that as long as they don't have some other issues. Mandarins are a big issue. Do I understand that it is in your coral tank while you are trying to let it go fallow? That won't work. However, mandarins do not appreciate being put in a QT with copper.

Jay
 

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I'm sorry - I cannot follow those details of your question. Can you break it down into a simply format? I don't understand where the 2 gallon tank comes into play. I would not buy new corals or new fish while you are trying to sort out an issue like this, it just adds uncertainty to everything. 1.5 with Copper Power is too low, you need to get to 2.0. The wrasse and and firefish can tolerate that as long as they don't have some other issues. Mandarins are a big issue. Do I understand that it is in your coral tank while you are trying to let it go fallow? That won't work. However, mandarins do not appreciate being put in a QT with copper.

Jay
So my coral qt tank has been set up for awhile no I have ton of pods swimming in the water column. I have only one fish tank set up to qt with copper and don’t have all the stuff to ttm the mandrine.
1.) I was wondering if add the fire fish and pintail to the copper at 1.5 would hurt them since they come in next week or should I just do a bath for brook and place into my coral tank until the fish in copper do their time and the dt goes fallow.
2.) what’s the best way to qt my madrine as I knew they don’t handle copper other than buying a ton of pods and a heater and filter for my little 2gallon I use for baths and ttm him for 2 weeks?
3.) I was ramping up to close to 2.5 but I have a pbt and last time I had him in copper he didn’t eat for a little. So this time I wanted to go a little slower to make sure he and a wrasse I have are handling it ok. I order these fish before the holiday but the weather in ND was to cold to ship and next week we are going to be at the temp the fish people said they will ship in so that’s why question 1 is in play. I know my coral qt will have to sit for 76+ days before I add to it but that’s not an issue for me personally
 
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Jay Hemdal

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So my coral qt tank has been set up for awhile no I have ton of pods swimming in the water column. I have only one fish tank set up to qt with copper and don’t have all the stuff to ttm the mandrine.
1.) I was wondering if add the fire fish and pintail to the copper at 1.5 would hurt them since they come in next week or should I just do a bath for brook and place into my coral tank until the fish in copper do their time and the dt goes fallow.
2.) what’s the best way to qt my madrine as I knew they don’t handle copper other than buying a ton of pods and a heater and filter for my little 2gallon I use for baths and ttm him for 2 weeks?
3.) I was ramping up to close to 2.5 but I have a pbt and last time I had him in copper he didn’t eat for a little. So this time I wanted to go a little slower to make sure he and a wrasse I have are handling it ok. I order these fish before the holiday but the weather in ND was to cold to ship and next week we are going to be at the temp the fish people said they will ship in so that’s why question 1 is in play. I know my coral qt will have to sit for 76+ days before I add to it but that’s not an issue for me personally
Ok, I think you are trying to juggle too many things at once.
Keeping the mandarin in a 2 gallon tank for a fallow period isn’t likely to work.
You can move the wrasse and fire fish into the copper treatment.
I wonder though - you said you lost all your coral. Have you thought of moving the snails out and going hypo in the whole tank for 30 days?
Jay
 

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Ok, I think you are trying to juggle too many things at once.
Keeping the mandarin in a 2 gallon tank for a fallow period isn’t likely to work.
You can move the wrasse and fire fish into the copper treatment.
I wonder though - you said you lost all your coral. Have you thought of moving the snails out and going hypo in the whole tank for 30 days?
Jay
I didn’t think I could because of the snails
 
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Jay Hemdal

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I didn’t think I could because of the snails
You would have to move the snails to a small tank with no fish and leave them be for 45+ days. It just seems faster/better to me if you could hypo the DT. I don't know all your specifics, but if you can do it, that is something to consider.

Jay
 
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Hello, I need your opinion on my situation:

I’m setting up a 65g Reef Tank which I think it would be running a cycling in about a month.

I currently have a nano tank fully stock with different corals ( SPS,LPS, Soft), a tomini tang and a midas Blenny, various snails and hermits.
I didn’t quarantine any of my fish and eventually Ich made its presence in my tank, I implemented ich management and so far so good.
i want to change my nano tank into a qt tank after I transfer all the corals and inverts to the new tank.
my questions are:
1. How long should I go fallow in the new tank?
2. I’m planning on treating with copper in the qt tank and quarantine all new arrivals, my concern is that when I start dosing copper in the qt tank, since it used to be a reef tank will it cause a massive die off of all the critters that didn’t transfer to the new tank and cause an ammonia spike and potentially kill all my fish?
3. Do you think my plan could work or any other suggestion?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Hello, I need your opinion on my situation:

I’m setting up a 65g Reef Tank which I think it would be running a cycling in about a month.

I currently have a nano tank fully stock with different corals ( SPS,LPS, Soft), a tomini tang and a midas Blenny, various snails and hermits.
I didn’t quarantine any of my fish and eventually Ich made its presence in my tank, I implemented ich management and so far so good.
i want to change my nano tank into a qt tank after I transfer all the corals and inverts to the new tank.
my questions are:
1. How long should I go fallow in the new tank?
2. I’m planning on treating with copper in the qt tank and quarantine all new arrivals, my concern is that when I start dosing copper in the qt tank, since it used to be a reef tank will it cause a massive die off of all the critters that didn’t transfer to the new tank and cause an ammonia spike and potentially kill all my fish?
3. Do you think my plan could work or any other suggestion?

Hi, let me try to give you some opinions:

1) Letting the new tank run fallow for 45 days at 81 degrees would be the minimum amount of time. If you want added assurance, go up to 10 weeks.

2) You may well see a die-off of critters when you change a tank from a DT reef to a QT. Copper will kill many of the inverts. You would need to monitor ammonia to ensure that this die off doesn't overwhelm your beneficial bacteria.

Jay
 

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Its been a month since i added the fish and i deff have some signs of ich in my tank ( some scratching, maybe a flash but very few) the fish are fat and dont bother too much. Im not gonna go fallow again simply because after 4 fallow periods im tired of it plus it causes havoc on my tank and the money i have spent on corals far outweighs the fish.
So in the case where fallow fails. What do you do?

previously we tried ich management. Maybe 1/4 of fish died, but most lived.

Then 6 months later we had an ich outbreak and we thought that our fish had some resistance from surviving the last outbreak and the tank likely having ich the whole time. Well this was either a worse strain or something but 1/3 of fish died within first week, and rest looked BAD, so we decided to hospital/QT them with copper. We ended up losing another 1/3 of the fish. And almost all the rest were pretty bad and would’ve most likely died if no copper.

so what do you do in ich management when you get outbreak? If we didn’t use copper all of our fish would’ve died.
 
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We’re at 45 days of fallow at 81-83. We dropped to 78-79 over the last week of it or so because we had a coral dying and can’t figure out why.

I had a thought. When we do introduce fish back into DT. Would this be a good strategy:

Add just 1 fish, maybe a tang. Watch that fish very closely to see if any signs of ich. If it shows ich pull it and put it back into the QT, so the ich doesn’t have chance to start new cycle.

My thinking is that if we do this, the tank fallow period doesn’t reset, and we just treat that fish and rest of fish in hospital tank with copper for 4 weeks again. Then we’d be at 10 weeks fallow when it’s done. It’s a little like TTM in that we’d stop the cycle from restarting if we pull fish fast enough. Before any ich falls off the fish, which takes 3-7 days.

It seems like a good extra precaution to take, what do y’all think?
 

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I wouldnt put a fish back in at all until the fallow period is completed.. the ich may not hatch until the end of the period and give a false impression that the tank is ich free... Then even if your fish does become infected it may be hard to notice initially until the population of ich ramps up...

Should you allow ich to restart by providing it a host (fish) you would have to completely restart your fallow period again.

When I did mine I ended up with Phosphate and nitrates crashing, you may want to see if this is happening to you, and if so maybe throw in some coral food or fish food to help keep these values from reaching zero... Or if you have neophos and neonitro dose them to bounce the values back up if they are bottoming out.
 
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So in the case where fallow fails. What do you do?

previously we tried ich management. Maybe 1/4 of fish died, but most lived.

Then 6 months later we had an ich outbreak and we thought that our fish had some resistance from surviving the last outbreak and the tank likely having ich the whole time. Well this was either a worse strain or something but 1/3 of fish died within first week, and rest looked BAD, so we decided to hospital/QT them with copper. We ended up losing another 1/3 of the fish. And almost all the rest were pretty bad and would’ve most likely died if no copper.

so what do you do in ich management when you get outbreak? If we didn’t use copper all of our fish would’ve died.

Sorry - I missed your post from Saturday. That is one big issue with "ich management" - the idea is to maintain a low stress environment so the fish can fight off the parasite. However, people don't realize that the parasite itself is a major stressor. What happens is that if the ich trophonts reach a certain number, propagule pressure (basically the new ich theronts attacking the fish) weakens the fish, allowing the disease to progress....

Jay
 
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We’re at 45 days of fallow at 81-83. We dropped to 78-79 over the last week of it or so because we had a coral dying and can’t figure out why.

I had a thought. When we do introduce fish back into DT. Would this be a good strategy:

Add just 1 fish, maybe a tang. Watch that fish very closely to see if any signs of ich. If it shows ich pull it and put it back into the QT, so the ich doesn’t have chance to start new cycle.

My thinking is that if we do this, the tank fallow period doesn’t reset, and we just treat that fish and rest of fish in hospital tank with copper for 4 weeks again. Then we’d be at 10 weeks fallow when it’s done. It’s a little like TTM in that we’d stop the cycle from restarting if we pull fish fast enough. Before any ich falls off the fish, which takes 3-7 days.

It seems like a good extra precaution to take, what do y’all think?

I would extend your fallow period to a minimum of 60 days due to the lower temperature.

No - adding the one test fish isn't a good idea. If you put it in there, and it shows with ich, that means the tank had resting tomonts in it and they released theronts that infected the fish. Moving the fish out quickly doesn't change there, they are still there....and longer fallow time is needed for them to die off

Jay
 

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I would extend your fallow period to a minimum of 60 days due to the lower temperature.

No - adding the one test fish isn't a good idea. If you put it in there, and it shows with ich, that means the tank had resting tomonts in it and they released theronts that infected the fish. Moving the fish out quickly doesn't change there, they are still there....and longer fallow time is needed for them to die off

Jay
I understand that if the fish shows ich, it means there are still tomonts in the tank. My point though is that if you only put 1 fish in instead of all at once, wouldn’t you give yourself a chance to stop the cycle from restarting.

Of course you’d have to wait to treat that fish and all others he’s exposed to when back in the hospital tank, but at least you didn’t restart the fallow period on DT. It could continue another 4 weeks or whatever you decide.
 

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I understand that if the fish shows ich, it means there are still tomonts in the tank. My point though is that if you only put 1 fish in instead of all at once, wouldn’t you give yourself a chance to stop the cycle from restarting.

Of course you’d have to wait to treat that fish and all others he’s exposed to when back in the hospital tank, but at least you didn’t restart the fallow period on DT. It could continue another 4 weeks or whatever you decide.
Just an extra precaution. Not meant to lower the fallow period or shortcut anything.
 
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I wouldnt put a fish back in at all until the fallow period is completed.. the ich may not hatch until the end of the period and give a false impression that the tank is ich free... Then even if your fish does become infected it may be hard to notice initially until the population of ich ramps up...

Should you allow ich to restart by providing it a host (fish) you would have to completely restart your fallow period again.

When I did mine I ended up with Phosphate and nitrates crashing, you may want to see if this is happening to you, and if so maybe throw in some coral food or fish food to help keep these values from reaching zero... Or if you have neophos and neonitro dose them to bounce the values back up if they are bottoming out.
We’ve been feeding 1 pinch of food, half frozen cube, and 1 squirt of phytoplankton every day. Also 1 fingernail sized piece of shrimp for anemone once a week. Our nitrates and phosphates are surprisingly rising slowly. We want to make sure our shrimp, sand sifting stars, bristleworms, copepods, amphipods, hermit crabs, snails, coral, etc all have sufficient food/nutrients during the fallow period.
 

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I understand that if the fish shows ich, it means there are still tomonts in the tank. My point though is that if you only put 1 fish in instead of all at once, wouldn’t you give yourself a chance to stop the cycle from restarting.

Of course you’d have to wait to treat that fish and all others he’s exposed to when back in the hospital tank, but at least you didn’t restart the fallow period on DT. It could continue another 4 weeks or whatever you decide.
Adding even 1 fish back to the display tank and have it show ick would re-start the fallow clock ( active ick infection) and then you also have a fish that would need a new clean quarantine tank for just that fish for a 30 day copper. If you put it back with the others, they would all have to go through a 30 day copper treatment.
 

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