6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[A. grandis]

There is quite a bit of IR and also UV in Metal halides. This is why I always post graphs from 350 to 800nm since I believe that all of this spectrum is useful. If you look back at the graphs in post #14 you can see the good amount of real output from 350-400 nm (which was talked about in that presentation as being very useful), but also from 700-800nm which is the IR.

Here is the chart again:


I have posted about this before, but when I tested bulbs using an integrating sphere and a $50k spectrometer at the university, there is about 2 to 4% of output above 800 that is nothing but heat in the MH bulbs that we tested. The "bluer" bulbs like 20k Radium, 14k Phoenix and 14k Ushio all were just about 2%. Iwasaki 6500k was closer to 4% - you can see this in the chart as well. This is energy that is just wasted unless you live in a colder climate. We found that there was no efficiency in any MH bulb or LED panel when comparing radiated watts to input watts - the MACNA presentation linked above pretty much says the same thing and most people have come to realize this. We could not test T5s since the sphere was only about 24".

My hope is that someday, somebody can fine tune a MH bulb to stop production at, or around, 800nm. This would take out nearly all of the heat and then it might be even more the perfect light source. The new Hamilton 20K, Radium 20k and Phoenix 14k are all cooler than a 10k or 6500k bulb, but they still need fans at my house.

jda, how can we prove there is only 2 - 4% above 800nm that is heat?
Does the integrating sphere shows anything to point that out?
So the other 98 - 96% would be useful radiant light??
I know that Tullio talked about "infra-red" and "thermal infra-red" as "heat" in that video, so there must be a difference.
That is one of the things that makes halides the best!
I truly believe there is useful IR. I would like to know how much is the percentage.
Just want to understand better.
Good info! Thanks!

 

[Sallstrom]

I'm not sure this contribute to the discussion, but I would like to hear your thoughts.
We had an expert doing some test at my work(at a public aquarium). He tested the spectrum on some of our lamps and I've got some of his graphs. I remember very high peaks above 800nm when we tested metal halides(in air). The bulb is a 1000W BLV (14 or 16k K, not sure). When we meassured in water, the same lamps, these peaks where gone. Are they heat? Are they absorbed by the water that quick? Are these wavelenghts(above 800nm) useful for anything more than heating you water? Or did we do something wrong when we meassured?
Lots of questions Here's the graph, meassured with a JAZ.

 

[A. grandis]

Great to have you here, Salistrom!
Would you please post the other graphs of the 150W and 400W halides?
Thanks!

 

[jda]

The IR above 700 will put out heat too, just that I think that it is useful still up to about 800nm. I would not get rid of this spectrum. I like what Hamilton, Ushio, etc. are doing now with MH bulbs to reinvent the spectrum to be more efficient - Tullio talked about this too. With the resurgence of MH usage right now, I am hoping for even better bulbs.

 

[oreo54]

 

[A. grandis]

The IR above 700 will put out heat too, just that I think that it is useful still up to about 800nm. I would not get rid of this spectrum. I like what Hamilton, Ushio, etc. are doing now with MH bulbs to reinvent the spectrum to be more efficient - Tullio talked about this too. With the resurgence of MH usage right now, I am hoping for even better bulbs.

I'm glad people are stating to realize how good/important halides really are!
We are on the same page in regards to IR!
Like I've said before... there is a special magic when we put halides and chillers together: Acros' heaven!
Cheers!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

L O L.

 

[tsav87]

The most impressive tank that I have seen in person was lit by Iwasakai 6500K MH and Actinic 03 VHOs. It was back in 2005ish. The acropora in that tank was so much denser than any tank I see today. These were truly colonies. His “frags” were cut at 5-7” which he gave away because they grew so fast. He kept up with the ca/alk with a calcium reactor.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I'm not sure this contribute to the discussion, but I would like to hear your thoughts.
We had an expert doing some test at my work(at a public aquarium). He tested the spectrum on some of our lamps and I've got some of his graphs. I remember very high peaks above 800nm when we tested metal halides(in air). The bulb is a 1000W BLV (14 or 16k K, not sure). When we meassured in water, the same lamps, these peaks where gone. Are they heat? Are they absorbed by the water that quick? Are these wavelenghts(above 800nm) useful for anything more than heating you water? Or did we do something wrong when we meassured?
Lots of questions Here's the graph, meassured with a JAZ.

Just a thought, all bulbs have a life span, if comparing a new bulb to say, one left with 1/2 life span, I wonder what the test would be?

 

[A. grandis]

L O L.

Perhaps you should help us here man!
Thanks for showing up!

 

[A. grandis]

The most impressive tank that I have seen in person was lit by Iwasakai 6500K MH and Actinic 03 VHOs. It was back in 2005ish. The acropora in that tank was so much denser than any tank I see today. These were truly colonies. His “frags” were cut at 5-7” which he gave away because they grew so fast. He kept up with the ca/alk with a calcium reactor.

Good times!!!! They all looked very healthy too!!
My best tank ever had 2 X 250W Iwasakis 6500K over it.

 

[oreo54]

And that had nothing to do w/ throwing 45,000 Lumens into the tank?

anyways to somewhat answer another question:

http://www.coralreefmagazine.com/light-adaptation-of-corals-part-2/

 

[jda]

Of course it has something to do with putting a lot of light into the tank. I will not say "lumens" since it is a worthless measurement for our tanks, like Tullio said. The important thing to ask yourself is "why can one type of light do this, but not another?" You will get the same old BS of just laughing by some, talking about lenses and a few studies by others, promises of progress and next generations... but you will also see the multitudes of people who are switching and seeing a nearly immediate difference... they do not know why, but they see something with their own eyes that you can actually reef with.

When you see all of the people who have growth and thriving at this high level of output, it makes me question the levels that have been posted with photo inhibition since I have personally see corals continue to thrive in a linear fashion well beyond these. I think that there is something wrong with the tests or something is missing...

 

[Mattrg02]

Of course it has something to do with putting a lot of light into the tank. I will not say "lumens" since it is a worthless measurement for our tanks, like Tullio said. The important thing to ask yourself is "why can one type of light do this, but not another?" You will get the same old crap of just laughing by some, talking about lenses and a few studies by others, promises of progress and next generations... but you will also see the multitudes of people who are switching and seeing a nearly immediate difference... they do not know why, but they see something with their own eyes that you can actually reef with.

When you see all of the people who have growth and thriving at this high level of output, it makes me question the levels that have been posted with photo inhibition since I have personally see corals continue to thrive in a linear fashion well beyond these. I think that there is something wrong with the tests or something is missing...

You continue to ignore all of those that have great success with leds only lit tanks. That makes it hard, for me, to take you seriously sometimes. If you want to convince someone that you are right, and they are wrong, you can’t just go around completely ignoring the success others are having, dimssing it as them having some God like, pristine, water conditions. Great for you that you like t5 and MH, but stop acting like the rest of us are just idiots that will eventually think like you.

I started off with t5 and found dull colors and only moderate growth. Switched to a diy led setup and saw a completely different experience. Not to mention, control of t5 completely sucks and bulb replacement is very costly.

Face it, leds are here to stay. People have great success with them and don’t have perfect parameters to explain it otherwise.

 

[dantimdad]

You continue to ignore all of those that have great success with leds only lit tanks. That makes it hard, for me, to take you seriously sometimes. If you want to convince someone that you are right, and they are wrong, you can’t just go around completely ignoring the success others are having, dimssing it as them having some God like, pristine, water conditions. Great for you that you like t5 and MH, but stop acting like the rest of us are just idiots that will eventually think like you.

I started off with t5 and found dull colors and only moderate growth. Switched to a diy led setup and saw a completely different experience. Not to mention, control of t5 completely sucks and bulb replacement is very costly.

Face it, leds are here to stay. People have great success with them and don’t have perfect parameters to explain it otherwise.

I believe we should explore all methods of lighting.

I have had setups that were NO, VHO, t5, MH and LED. And combinations of all of them. While none of them were the end all be all, I can state what I saw working best or looking best in my experience.

I hope LEDs are here to stay. I would love for us to be able to develop a really good LED setup that competed with MH for growth and kept their longevity and controllability. So far, with growth, I didn't like the way my tanks looked. With coloration, the growth wasn't there. Maybe I did something wrong. I highly doubt I did. But, I can admit mistakes.

Hopefully, someone will have a flash of genius and bring us all together at a REASONABLE price point.

Just my .02

 

[Mattrg02]

I believe we should explore all methods of lighting.

I have had setups that were NO, VHO, t5, MH and LED. And combinations of all of them. While none of them were the end all be all, I can state what I saw working best or looking best in my experience.

I hope LEDs are here to stay. I would love for us to be able to develop a really good LED setup that competed with MH for growth and kept their longevity and controllability. So far, with growth, I didn't like the way my tanks looked. With coloration, the growth wasn't there. Maybe I did something wrong. I highly doubt I did. But, I can admit mistakes.

Hopefully, someone will have a flash of genius and bring us all together at a REASONABLE price point.

Just my .02

My diy led setup had good growth, more than my t5 setup had. The diy led setup used just Cree CW, and RB, 3w leds. I had them spread all over the heatsink, which meant great coverage over my tank. I think it’s coverage that needs to be improved on. I think the bext big thing will something that can direct the light in a less direct way. Maybe a curved diffuser and curved heatsink with more spread out led layout, combination?

Edit: Or we could mimic the sun and have dynamic lights that move on an arched rail through the day, constantly shining at new angles?

 

[dantimdad]

My diy led setup had good growth, more than my t5 setup had. The diy led setup used just Cree CW, and RB, 3w leds. I had them spread all over the heatsink, which meant great coverage over my tank. I think it’s coverage that needs to be improved on. I think the bext big thing will something that can direct the light in a less direct way. Maybe a curved diffuser and curved heatsink with more spread out led layout, combination?

Edit: Or we could mimic the sun and have dynamic lights that move on an arched rail through the day, constantly shining at new angles?

I believe this was tried once with metal halides over a very long tank. Back in an issue of FAMA magazine.

I think a dome of light would work over a cylinder tank, possibly. But, even a thousand gallon tank is too small to mimic natural sunlight angles and patterns. In my opinion anyway.

 

[TexasTodd]

Ah, NO with "hot" wires sticking out, I do not miss that.

dantimdad, have you checked out the Orphek OR light bars? More feedback needed but seem good and getting towards your reasonable price point.

 

[jda]

People have been using light movers for about 30 years, and still do. I have seen a few arched ones, but most are flat. They are not the crowd that you all would care for, though... they are a lot like me. You could get a mover and build an array of LEDs to get moved back and forth, but I do not know if they have smaller tank solutions. This is one thing that I cannot remember anybody doing with LEDs. LightRail 3.5 is a popular one.

I have a friend who moves a single 1000w MH back and forth over his 10 foot tank even though he has 5x 400w halides that are static.

 

[ReefInskeep]

I believe densely packed lower wattage LED panels with a diffuser that include a wide spectrum (like the Orphek Atlantic), are likely to be the best solution in the future. Even light spread and PAR distribution, even color blending, high efficiency, controllable, long lifespan, etc.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why no company has made an affordable light like that. LaniLED and LupyLED are ridiculously expensive and I question the LED choices, and the Phillips coral care isn’t widely available and I’d like it to have a wider spectrum like Orphek. Pucks like Kessils and Radions are appealing because they look nice and work pretty well, but we can do better for our corals.

Part of me just wants to get some capitol and invest in building the dang light myself, with help from Dana & whoever...by reefers, for reefers. lol