A comment about ammonia and cycling

[Malcontent]

Mineralization implies a specific thing - having nothing to do with microbes.
verb (used with object), min·er·al·ized, min·er·al·iz·ing.
to convert into a mineral substance.

This does not have a huge amount to do with the discussion? Or?

It's the process of converting organic nitrogen to ammonia and microbes are definitely involved.

I have my doubts that a dead fish would cause an ammonia spike given how many complaints I see that using organic matter as an ammonia source is taking too long and/or very messy/cloudy/stinky (implying a population of microbes has to be grown).

 

[HuduVudu]

Was that intended for this thread?

Yes

 

[Lasse]

Ammonium is not a common English word.I

Yes it is a common english word but it is not a common american word even if Merriam webster explain it as NH4 you love to shortcutting everything - like color instead of colours.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes

OK, then what anions are you referring to in a discussion about ammonia toxicity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes it is a common english word but it is not a common american word even if Merriam webster explain it as NH4 you love to shortcutting everything - like color instead of colours.

Sincerely Lasse

lol

I don't think it is an american vs english thing. It's just a chemical term that everyday people don't use much.

Hopefully we do not have to lower ourselves to only using "common" words. Might be hard to describe lanthanum or vanadium.

 

[MnFish1]

lol

I don't think it is an american vs english thing. It's just a chemical term that everyday people don't use much.

Hopefully we do not have to lower ourselves to only using "common" words. Might be hard to describe lanthanum or vanadium.

I just say NH4 and NH3

 

[HuduVudu]

OK, then what anions are you referring to in a discussion about ammonia toxicity?

Not a comment on toxicity. Just a comment on chloride.

 

[GARRIGA]

Seachem has an ammonia test that ignores fee ammonia. Don’t know if any other that does t just test total ammonia. I don’t fear ammonium. Although at marine PH levels there’s a higher amount of toxic ammonia vs at 6.0. Assuming one cares to know how much of either exists. I just aim for zero total and call it a day.

 

[3429810]

Seachem has an ammonia test that ignores fee ammonia. Don’t know if any other that does t just test total ammonia. I don’t fear ammonium. Although at marine PH levels there’s a higher amount of toxic ammonia vs at 6.0. Assuming one cares to know how much of either exists. I just aim for zero total and call it a day.

Edit. Just went to check and it was fluval not seachem I was using. Fluval is garbage.

 

[MnFish1]

Seachem has an ammonia test that ignores fee ammonia. Don’t know if any other that does t just test total ammonia. I don’t fear ammonium. Although at marine PH levels there’s a higher amount of toxic ammonia vs at 6.0. Assuming one cares to know how much of either exists. I just aim for zero total and call it a day.

So - its a little more confusing than that, right?

Ammonium chloride - when added to water (depending on pH, Salinity, temp) will dissociate into Ammonium (NH4+) and Ammonia (NH3). The Seachem tests of which I'm aware - Test Total ammonia (NH4+ and NH3). You can then do a test to test for just NH3 (free ammonia). Then there is the Seachem alert - which just tests 'Free ammonia (NH3)'.

As pH goes up - the amount of free ammonia increases. I'm not sure there is a test that just measures NH4 alone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not a comment on toxicity. Just a comment on chloride.

I'm not understanding what you are suggesting about chloride in this context.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes it is a common english word but it is not a common american word even if Merriam webster explain it as NH4 you love to shortcutting everything - like color instead of colours.

Sincerely Lasse

I agree with Randiy - Ammonium is certainly used in English. (i.e. Ammonium Chloride). Ammoniac was the term I was referring to - and I know you like to use it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So - its a little more confusing than that, right?

Ammonium chloride - when added to water (depending on pH, Salinity, temp) will dissociate into Ammonium (NH4+) and Ammonia (NH3). The Seachem tests of which I'm aware - Test Total ammonia (NH4+ and NH3). You can then do a test to test for just NH3 (free ammonia). Then there is the Seachem alert - which just tests 'Free ammonia (NH3)'.

As pH goes up - the amount of free ammonia increases. I'm not sure there is a test that just measures NH4 alone.

I'm skeptical of the generic claim that ammonium is completely not toxic, but I certainly understand that NH3 is the form that most readily penetrates cell membranes to cause toxicity. It's technically hard to test the toxicity of ammonium without interference of ammonia.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm skeptical of the generic claim that ammonium is completely not toxic, but I certainly understand that NH3 is the form that most readily penetrates cell membranes to cause toxicity. It's technically hard to test the toxicity of ammonium without interference of ammonia.

Doesn't it come from 2 places - 1. The freshwater trade in low pH tanks and 2. when fish are shipped, If you rapidly raise the ph of the bag on arrival - deaths (presumably from NH3 can occur.

However, I got a shipment of discus - that had a pH of about 5 - with significant "ammonia burn" on the fins - which resolved over a day or 2. (the diagnosis was made by the shipper). I did not have an ammonia test kit to measure it however

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm not understanding what you are suggesting about chloride in this context.

You are adding chloride to the tank, without countering with sodium. Yes, yes I know you will argue that it is a small amount, but depending on how long and how much it is going to have an impact that needs to be addressed. That is all.

 

[MnFish1]

You are adding chloride to the tank, without countering with sodium. Yes, yes I know you will argue that it is a small amount, but depending on how long and how much it is going to have an impact that needs to be addressed. That is all.

Now I'm curious - how are you adding Cl to the tank? Do you mean when initially cycling? You would only do that one time and its an extremely low amount?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are adding chloride to the tank, without countering with sodium. Yes, yes I know you will argue that it is a small amount, but depending on how long and how much it is going to have an impact that needs to be addressed. That is all.

Who is?

Are you talking about a theoretical cycling using ammonium chloride?

There's no one cycling a tank with enough ammonium chloride (2 ppm ammonia boosts chloride by 4 ppm) to significantly alter the 19,100 ppm of chloride already there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Doesn't it come from 2 places - 1. The freshwater trade in low pH tanks and 2. when fish are shipped, If you rapidly raise the ph of the bag on arrival - deaths (presumably from NH3 can occur.

However, I got a shipment of discus - that had a pH of about 5 - with significant "ammonia burn" on the fins - which resolved over a day or 2. (the diagnosis was made by the shipper). I did not have an ammonia test kit to measure it however

The idea that NH3 is the form to worry about is well founded, and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

The statements sometimes made by folks that NH4+ is "not toxic" is not established, IMO.

Assessment of ammonia toxicity in tests with the microalga, Nephroselmis pyriformis, Chlorophyta

Previous studies of an industrial effluent have indicated toxic effects by the ammonium/water system in tests with the unicellular green alga, Nephros…

www.sciencedirect.com

"Joint toxicity with additive effects of ammonia and ammonium ions was indicated, but the toxicity of ammonium ions was almost a factor 100 less (EC50, 24 h exposure, 224 μM or 3140 μg ammonium–nitrogen/L)."

 

[GARRIGA]

So - its a little more confusing than that, right?

Ammonium chloride - when added to water (depending on pH, Salinity, temp) will dissociate into Ammonium (NH4+) and Ammonia (NH3). The Seachem tests of which I'm aware - Test Total ammonia (NH4+ and NH3). You can then do a test to test for just NH3 (free ammonia). Then there is the Seachem alert - which just tests 'Free ammonia (NH3)'.

As pH goes up - the amount of free ammonia increases. I'm not sure there is a test that just measures NH4 alone.

I believe all test are based on eliminating something to derive something. Ammonium/free ammonia based on an equilibrium off PH. As PH rises the toxic form increases. Nothing added. Nothing lost. Just switching between both. As organism remove ammonium such as plants then free ammonia must convert to ammonium to maintain equilibrium assuming PH didn't change. Hence less free ammonia and total ammonia.

That I know of, nothing removes free ammonia and even bacteria utilize ammonium but I'm not 100% sure on last based on what one reads. I've seen conflicting thoughts. Regardless, one can derive free ammonia based on total ammonia based on PH. Just not me because I don't get that deep into the weeds. I just seek zero or near undetectable total ammonia and good to go. Hobby is complex enough. Why muddy it further.

 

[MnFish1]

I believe all test are based on eliminating something to derive something. Ammonium/free ammonia based on an equilibrium off PH. As PH rises the toxic form increases. Nothing added. Nothing lost. Just switching between both. As organism remove ammonium such as plants then free ammonia must convert to ammonium to maintain equilibrium assuming PH didn't change. Hence less free ammonia and total ammonia.

That I know of, nothing removes free ammonia and even bacteria utilize ammonium but I'm not 100% sure on last based on what one reads. I've seen conflicting thoughts. Regardless, one can derive free ammonia based on total ammonia based on PH. Just not me because I don't get that deep in the weeds. I just seek zero or near undetectable total ammonia and good to go. Hobby is complex enough. Why muddy it further.

salt water has about 19400 ppm Chloride. So - there is no real way that chloride will be affected dramatically. Second - as 'Total ammonia' is used (NH4+), by definition, free ammonia (NH3) will also decrease (its a mathematical equation). So - if the total ammonia is 0, the free ammonia will be 0. In a running (cycled tank) and NH4+ will be rapidly converted eventually to nitrite and nitrate - and if conditions are right to N2 gas.