A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

[LMSquire]

You are welcome. Sorry about the losses. Dinos in high nutrient systems is less common but does happen. I have seen it happen often in systems that were "treated" for cyanobacteria with something like Chemiclean. Despite the marketing, it is not a probiotic but an antibiotic -- erythromycin. It kills bacterial surface competitors leaving the door open for dinos.

Go slow on the phosphate reduction. Your corals slowly acclimated to the increasing levels and will stress if you reduce to quickly. Running carbon in the system is fine. It does nothing to directly affect dinos, it just helps minimize/remove some of the toxins they can produce. The phosphate binder does not remain in the system very long at all. It (Lanthanam chloride) binds almost immediately to phosphate and settles out as a precipitate crystal. It is a good idea to does to a sock to capture that stuff.

Did you do the coffee filter test to confirm it is dinos versus chrysophytes?

Not yet, I actually just received my little $49 Amazon microscope w iPhone capability and some osteindishes so as soon as my back slams give me a break I’m gonna check and find out what I have exactly. Would you remind me exactly where to post the picture that I get for the quickest identification? I remember reading it somewhere but can’t remember where it was. Thanks!

 

[thedon986]

Not yet, I actually just received my little $49 Amazon microscope w iPhone capability and some osteindishes so as soon as my back slams give me a break I’m gonna check and find out what I have exactly. Would you remind me exactly where to post the picture that I get for the quickest identification? I remember reading it somewhere but can’t remember where it was. Thanks!

It seems like you’re saying they’re on rocks and sand? You may have two types. I have only experienced the rocks or sand type, but not at the same time. For the sand type, there is an amphidinium Dino thread that focuses mostly on the sand type.

You can post up your scope pics here and we can try to help you.

 

[ScottB]

Not yet, I actually just received my little $49 Amazon microscope w iPhone capability and some osteindishes so as soon as my back slams give me a break I’m gonna check and find out what I have exactly. Would you remind me exactly where to post the picture that I get for the quickest identification? I remember reading it somewhere but can’t remember where it was. Thanks!

You can post it here and I will get notified. But the "big" thread google "Dinoflagellates are you tired" and it will pop.

 

[BillFish Coral Lover]

First off, thank you for all the hard work and preparing that article. That must’ve taken you a very long time

So I have been battling dinos and my 25 gallon lagoon for about the past two weeks. They’re beginning to kill my torches, already took out one gorgeous torch, my zoas, including my new GMK and exosphere zoas and my eclectus mushrooms aren’t even opening now, all of which were not cheap.

Good luck and Godspeed.

 

[dochoot]

Thanks for all the info. Did the basic Dino test and convinced not Dino.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks for all the info. Did the basic Dino test and convinced not Dino.

You are welcome. Maybe you have chrysophytes?

 

[dochoot]

I do and almost completely resolved in several days with modest basic intervention.

 

[bBurn18]

Thanks for writing this up. I read this and many other posts last night, so I'm not sure if I read it here or elsewhere, but I must share this for others.

If you are using a Hanna ULR Phosphate checker, IF YOU HAVE DOSED ANY SILICATE SUPPLEMENT, THE CHECKER WILL RETURN FALSE HIGH RESULTS!

I thought I was at near .30 PO4 ppm and when I tested with a standard dropper test kit, I was 0.01ppm!

I'm frustrated for not knowing that but very happy to learn as this explains everything that was previously making me scratch my head as to why things have gotten worse the last few weeks when it felt like I was close to eradicating them and being done with it.

Back to the basics described in this guide, but this time I will win!

 

[justdeb1107]

Does the coffee filter test really work? I have tried it 3 times. Haven't seen any globs come back, even if left overnight.

 

[Saxonpaul92]

My Journey with Dino's

Here is my account of having to deal with Dino's for the past 6 months. I don't proclaim that this is the only way to deal with these guys but, here is what I did to eradicate these pesky and very resilient creatures.

I tried almost all the methods others have claimed would work from blackouts, lowering light intensity, blowing the dino's off the substrate and rocks, removal of filter socks, running carbon, running GFO, dosing peroxide, turning off the skimmer, relocating my UV sterilizer to get more exposure to dino's, lowering flow in the UV Sterilizer, high flow in the tank, low flow in the tank, increasing nitrates and phosphates, dosing silica, large water changes, no water changes and combination of many of the preceding methods.

What caused it: I believe that I got the aquarium water too clean with 0 phosphates, 0 nitrates, and 0 silicates.

Type of dino's: Prorocentrum as verified with a microscope

How to attack it - Phase I:

1. Stop using any coral supplements (in my case RedSea AB+). Do not use any carbon products, or NO:PO-X. Let the phosphates and nitrates increase. (mine went to 3 and 15 respectively)

2. Start dosing Microbacter7 as directed on the bottle for High Nutrient tanks. Do this for the prescribed 2 weeks.

3. Spend some time getting the parameters of the tank to a stable state and continue dosing Microbacter7. This will take the most time as I equate this to starting over and cycling the tank. It will tank a good month for this to occur so be patient. During this time, refrain from cleaning the tank and allow algae to grow as this will compete with the dino's. I left my tank alone and did not even clean the glass until I simply could not stand to look at it. It took me 5-6 weeks with little change to get back to a stable state. I did change filter socks during this time but, I debated just removing them.

4. Lower flow through your UV Sterilizer (If you have one) to turnover the tanks 3-4 times per hour. In my case flow was approximately 500gph.

Phase II:
5. Start siphoning out the Dinos on the substrate but, try to remove as little water as you can (in my case < 1 gallon per day).

6. Start dosing silica (in my case SpongeExcel by Brightwell) as prescribed to encourage diatom growth and help out any sponges you may have.

7. Change filter socks every day.

8. During dosing of Microbacter, turn off the skimmer for 4 hours. Once on, skim a little wet to help remove as much waste as possible.

9. Keep dosing Microbactor7 at double the dose of the ULNS recommendations.

10. After 1-2 weeks you should start to see progress, less Dino's on the substrate.

11. Another 1-2 weeks you should see more and more Dino's disappear until it eventually goes away. Don't be fooled though as they still exist in your tank but you have won the battle for now.

All-in-all it took 6 mos to eradicate it in my tank however, I would estimate 2-3 mos. if you follow a similar process as I have described.

There is no quick cure so, take it slowly and it will eventually go away.

As a side note:
I did lose to Lyre-tail Anthias and my orange watchman goby lost his tail to fin rot. I had to dose the fish food with medicine (Kanaplex and Focus) during this time and I am sure this also slowed down progress.

 

[BryanM]

I've just recently gone through, and I believe beaten my dinos. It took a couple months, but the first month I was not focused on trying to eradicate them.

I followed much of the advice in this guide.

I started with just trying dosing Microbacter7, NeoNitro, and NeoPhos (my dinos almost certianly were due to bottomed out nutrients). This appeared to work for a few days, but dinos caught back up.

I made the decision to get a 40w pentair UV. I used pentairs recommendation on flow, and I plumbed thru return, not direct to/from the DT.

This made a dent, there's no doubt. But it still did not fix it.

I also added pods and phyto sometime around here, again, another prong to this.... Pods, natural predators to dinos, seemed like a very good idea.

Noteworthy now, I also had started up a surf4 algae turf scrubber from santa monica. This unit started growing well about the same time the UV was installed.

I made the decision to do a black out period. This made me sad, but as I was still battling I had to try something.

At the same time, or maybe a day or two before, I also decided to lower the flow rate thru the UV to 3x sump/tank turnover.

My blackout ended early as things were looking very good, and as I mentioned it made me sad. But blackout ending meant I was only going to turn lights on very slowly.

Anyway, in the end I'm not sure which thing really ended the dinos. Via the almighty google it is clear that an ATS can help with dinos. Blackout obviously helps. And lowering the flow through the UV helps. I wish I could say which one helped definitively, or if all 3 were needed... but my dinos were so bad they killed a beloved trachy, 50% or more of my clean up crew (I was unaware that my dinos had toxins or I would not have ordered a large CUC to help with the dinos), and a goni.

If I were to guess, the UV with lower flow is probably what won the battle.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

My Journey with Dino's

Here is my account of having to deal with Dino's for the past 6 months. I don't proclaim that this is the only way to deal with these guys but, here is what I did to eradicate these pesky and very resilient creatures.

I tried almost all the methods others have claimed would work from blackouts, lowering light intensity, blowing the dino's off the substrate and rocks, removal of filter socks, running carbon, running GFO, dosing peroxide, turning off the skimmer, relocating my UV sterilizer to get more exposure to dino's, lowering flow in the UV Sterilizer, high flow in the tank, low flow in the tank, increasing nitrates and phosphates, dosing silica, large water changes, no water changes and combination of many of the preceding methods.

What caused it: I believe that I got the aquarium water too clean with 0 phosphates, 0 nitrates, and 0 silicates.

Type of dino's: Prorocentrum as verified with a microscope

How to attack it - Phase I:

1. Stop using any coral supplements (in my case RedSea AB+). Do not use any carbon products, or NO:PO-X. Let the phosphates and nitrates increase. (mine went to 3 and 15 respectively)

2. Start dosing Microbacter7 as directed on the bottle for High Nutrient tanks. Do this for the prescribed 2 weeks.

3. Spend some time getting the parameters of the tank to a stable state and continue dosing Microbacter7. This will take the most time as I equate this to starting over and cycling the tank. It will tank a good month for this to occur so be patient. During this time, refrain from cleaning the tank and allow algae to grow as this will compete with the dino's. I left my tank alone and did not even clean the glass until I simply could not stand to look at it. It took me 5-6 weeks with little change to get back to a stable state. I did change filter socks during this time but, I debated just removing them.

4. Lower flow through your UV Sterilizer (If you have one) to turnover the tanks 3-4 times per hour. In my case flow was approximately 500gph.

Phase II:
5. Start siphoning out the Dinos on the substrate but, try to remove as little water as you can (in my case < 1 gallon per day).

6. Start dosing silica (in my case SpongeExcel by Brightwell) as prescribed to encourage diatom growth and help out any sponges you may have.

7. Change filter socks every day.

8. During dosing of Microbacter, turn off the skimmer for 4 hours. Once on, skim a little wet to help remove as much waste as possible.

9. Keep dosing Microbactor7 at double the dose of the ULNS recommendations.

10. After 1-2 weeks you should start to see progress, less Dino's on the substrate.

11. Another 1-2 weeks you should see more and more Dino's disappear until it eventually goes away. Don't be fooled though as they still exist in your tank but you have won the battle for now.

All-in-all it took 6 mos to eradicate it in my tank however, I would estimate 2-3 mos. if you follow a similar process as I have described.

There is no quick cure so, take it slowly and it will eventually go away.

As a side note:
I did lose to Lyre-tail Anthias and my orange watchman goby lost his tail to fin rot. I had to dose the fish food with medicine (Kanaplex and Focus) during this time and I am sure this also slowed down progress.

I've just recently gone through, and I believe beaten my dinos. It took a couple months, but the first month I was not focused on trying to eradicate them.

I followed much of the advice in this guide.

I started with just trying dosing Microbacter7, NeoNitro, and NeoPhos (my dinos almost certianly were due to bottomed out nutrients). This appeared to work for a few days, but dinos caught back up.

I made the decision to get a 40w pentair UV. I used pentairs recommendation on flow, and I plumbed thru return, not direct to/from the DT.

This made a dent, there's no doubt. But it still did not fix it.

I also added pods and phyto sometime around here, again, another prong to this.... Pods, natural predators to dinos, seemed like a very good idea.

Noteworthy now, I also had started up a surf4 algae turf scrubber from santa monica. This unit started growing well about the same time the UV was installed.

I made the decision to do a black out period. This made me sad, but as I was still battling I had to try something.

At the same time, or maybe a day or two before, I also decided to lower the flow rate thru the UV to 3x sump/tank turnover.

My blackout ended early as things were looking very good, and as I mentioned it made me sad. But blackout ending meant I was only going to turn lights on very slowly.

Anyway, in the end I'm not sure which thing really ended the dinos. Via the almighty google it is clear that an ATS can help with dinos. Blackout obviously helps. And lowering the flow through the UV helps. I wish I could say which one helped definitively, or if all 3 were needed... but my dinos were so bad they killed a beloved trachy, 50% or more of my clean up crew (I was unaware that my dinos had toxins or I would not have ordered a large CUC to help with the dinos), and a goni.

If I were to guess, the UV with lower flow is probably what won the battle.

Are the dinos still gone?

 

[BryanM]

Are the dinos still gone?

This is very hard to say because I could never get a microscope to work right for me... So my "evidence" is via pictures, and reading.

From reading:

1). Bottoming out nitrates and phosphates almost always ends with Dinos.
2). A large imbalance in nitrates vs phosphates also typically ends with dinos.

I did both.

The post you referenced was before I realized that I had dosed too much phos and now was in the #2 point above mode, with hanna blinking .9....

I've been dosing LC in to a filter sock for months. I finally gave up that battle and went the GFO reactor route from BRS with their high capacity GFO.

In just two weeks and one change of the GFO media, I'm down to .46 as of last night. (8-10 nitrates as well).

The tank is looking better every day, the nuisance algae, whatever it is gone, or replaced by something different that does not propagate nearly as fast, and the algae that was growing on the glass (which was difficult to remove) has been replaced by a film algae which wipes off with ease.

I'm in the home stretch with all signs point to good times ahead, the next challenge is going to be finding equilibrium in nutrient export (ATS), and maintaining reasonably attainable, and safe, levels of N and P.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Great read!

My Dino's are still kicking after months and what seems forever. LCA is what I'm dealing with and been tossing everything but the kitchen sink at them but they still show their ugly faces. UV sweeping has really knocked them back but in a few days they start to cover the sand again. I'm only running a WB 35.2 tank and I always need to move some frags around as the UV sweeper is pretty big but I'm able to maneuver it to target them.

I've always struggled with maintaining po4 and now I can't lower it. It's always hanging around the .17-.18 and nitrate goes up and down from 7.9-8.5 so I also leave it alone unless it drops to much then I'll dose it up.

I've h202 dosed 5-7ml daily for a while and really didn't see any benefits of doing so.

What I've found that helped was adding Dr Tim's waste away gel pack and UV sweeping but it wasn't the best bet for my system.

In the past I'd dose MB7 but it always hammered the nutrients back to zero. This time it isn't and I'm not sure why? I'm dosing MB7 now and can basically free pour with little to no change in nutrients and I'm on bottle 2 now so go figure.

Ok what I've been sticking with and seeing great results is....

UV sweep then right after that I'll mix up..
Microbactor purple M @40ml and microbactor 7 @20ml mixed together and direct injected into the sand bed with all pumps off for 30 minutes... THAT seems to work the best and just broadcast dosing doesn't do anything noticeable.

I'm dosing .7ml tropic Marin elmi-np daily to lower the po4, but not sure if the system is there quite yet to lower them nutrients.

I've added a bit more white to my lighting schedule and that seems to also help.

So dosing MB7 and MB purple M, tisbee pods, 2 different strains of live phyto. Biweekly dose of Aquaforest life source mud and UV sweeping with more white to my lighting schedule seems to be helping a bunch to knock these LCA dinos back.. fingers crossed by the end of this month they'll be gone for good.