A discussion on immunity
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
What the article does is explain the chemistry and biology involved with different species immune systems. It details how the same chemicals/hormones involved in reproduction also play a key role in our immune systems. Vertebrates in general, and mammals in particular, tend to have stronger immune systems in exchange for weaker sexual reproductive systems. Fish have much stronger reproductive systems but the trade off is that they have weaker immune systems.
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Paul B
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Jen that is only because you are an excellent reefer and know what you are doing. :D
Brew12. Take a step back, toward the liquor cabinet and remove a nice bottle of Merlot. Sit down and relax. Take a breath. That's it.:p
Remember guys (and girl) this is a hobby. We are not curing cancer, canker sores learning ball room dancing or using Calamine Lotion. We are keeping fish, or what I usually call them, Lunch.
We all have opinions and some of the information in some of our opinions is correct, I think we all agree on that.
Larry, don't worry, I love your food, but I don't have it for breakfast and I don't think you eat it any more now that it has worms in it. :eek:
I think we can all agree that fish can become immune (sometimes) from bacteria and parasites. How they do that is debatable. (Gut bacteria cough cough)
I have immune fish. I don't make any money because my fish are immune. I won't apologize because my fish are immune and neither will my fish. I have been keeping fish since 1952, I won't count the fish my Dad used to bring me home from the Fulton Fish Market in Manhattan earlier than that and I don't know if any of them were immune. They were quarantined in the hold of a fishing boat.
I don't care if your fish are not immune. I am just trying to show youse guys how to get your fishes immune. You don't have to follow my methods or install an undergravel filter. To me there is a reason my tank is 45 years old and never crashed or had any diseases in 35 years. I don't have to prove anything and I don't have any hair. But I am a pretty good dancer. :rolleyes:
I still love all you guys (and girl) no matter if you believe me or not. In 4 years and 3 months my reef will be fifty years old. I am sure it will still have immune fish and I am sure we will still be having this discussion. But I am enjoying it as I am sure you are. At least we got some discussion going.
Merry Christmas and Happy birthday to me because me and Jesus were born on the same day, but we were in different mangers. :)
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mcarroll
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And I think I understand what you meant in citing that now.....but it still doesn't seem to discourage comparison.
We just need to keep in mind that parallels do not equal sameness.
I don't think we're looking for sameness, so much as the parallels and, hopefully, the pattern that we are collectively missing that will allow us all to understand how to keep fish alive longer.
(So far, it seems like the parallels are strong; everything I've found that we should be doing for our fish, we should also be doing for ourselves – but that's an independent track of research.)
We just need to keep in mind that parallels do not equal sameness.
I don't think we're looking for sameness, so much as the parallels and, hopefully, the pattern that we are collectively missing that will allow us all to understand how to keep fish alive longer.
(So far, it seems like the parallels are strong; everything I've found that we should be doing for our fish, we should also be doing for ourselves – but that's an independent track of research.)
Brew12
Electrical Gru
This is exactly the issue. The reason I posted that isn't to say that fish don't have immune systems or can't develop immunities. They can. It just isn't the same as it is in humans.
I have no problems with people saying that introducing a sick fish into a tank with fish that spent 6 months in a sterile environment is like the Spaniards wiping out half of Mexico. That is a valid parallel.
To say that human mothers pass immunity on to their children so fish must too is not valid since the mechanisms behind the immunity are different.
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Paul B
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Why are we referring to Human Mothers, or sick Spaniards dancing with Mexicans so they get sick? I just took a course on the Black death or bubonic plague but I won't go into that except that eventually, the people became immune, probably from eating worms. I started this thread over a year ago and it was about fish. We don't have to go off on other livestock. I would like to keep it about fish.
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The vast majority of hobbyists do not practice proper qt and preventative treatment, and although its recently growing in popularity thanks in part to awareness on forums like this. Saying that it "hasn't worked" marginally to this point seems misleading.
Find me someone on the disease thread with an issue, and I'll show you someone that didn't properly qt and treat incoming fish and follow the "wet addition" rules or protocol.
You may know my history I spent 10 years utilizing ich management and do so today in one of my four tanks in fact. I'm no stranger to the theory but have killed unnecessarily until I found a fish that warded off parasites - that is until I tried seriously keeping acanthurus tangs. They just cannot fight off parasites by and large as zebrasoma tangs and some hippo tangs can.
I'm not saying ich management methods don't work I know they can, depending on what you keep. I will say they are risky, eventually it will bite you, your fish are less likely to live their full lifespans, and I would say it's not the most ethical method. I plan to change my ich management tank but haven't had time to do it yet. I came to the dark side and things are exponentially better here in the proper treatment and qt dark side.
Also, although what I've said is highly anecdotal as well, a plethora of counter arguments are being made almost entirely on anecdotal claims not really provable to the casual reader, and perhaps loosely relevant studies devoid of a useable conclusion. Again, I realize that I just provided anecdotal evidence as well, albeit perhaps larger scale.
You are the one that originally brought up mothers passing immunity in post #293.
Most in the discussion keep it about fish, one in particular brings up outside subjects such as supermodels, hair(or lack thereof) and many other things unrelated to fish.
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Paul B
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Ok lets not get picky now. :rolleyes: I generally forget what I post the minute my fingers leave the keyboard.
I don't know about this one. I got some pretty old fish and I have been waiting for these parasites to bite me for almost 40 years. They ain't there yet. :D When does "eventually" kick in?
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Paul B
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Show me a sick fish and I will show you someone who didn't get their fish immune. :D
mcarroll
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..is a red herring and I don't think is really very apart from the QT procedure.
May as well be called chaos management. ;)
Lucky for us, the immune system (in total) has been design for no less purpose than this one.
I'm not sure what we hope to accomplish
In the end, I think we will collecively learn not only that we have been subverting our fishes' immune system (most of the issues have been put on the table more than once) but how, why and when.
Some of this is already clear....anything that can be considered a controllable stress should be controlled.
E.g. Population density. Feeding. (Maybe being a beginner ought to be on this list of controllable stresses as well!)
That's at least two things eminently within our control and which go directly to immunity support/suppression.
If you don't think you can implement every aspect of Paul's system because you don't live as close to the sea, for example...
Then support immunity instead by lowering stress – keep a lower stocking density than he does. (Just an example. One option of many.)
I see no reason to expect lesser results than Paul gets if you can lower stress for your fish with a serious mind and feed them as well as possible. For feed, I would consider quality probiotic food a very acceptable minimum. But folks should give more consideration to live food. Most locales have insects and larvae that can be found and/or cultivated. Earthworms are common in most places. It doesn't have to be clams and blackworms if those are impossible for some reason.
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How long does it take to get my fish immune? Is this something I can do 30 mins after I drop the sick fish in my DT? :rolleyes:
But why not use probiotics, live foods, etc in conjunction with qt. Supporting a fish's existing immune system, strengthening it, but never actually having to use it?
Diet and limiting stress in it's various causes is good, I don't think anybody disagrees with that. But needlessly exposing them to pathogens is counter productive and is a stressor itself.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Ok.. I've got my wine and will now post my opinion on the topic.
I want to start by saying I think PaulB is exactly on point with the importance of good nutrition when it comes to feeding fish. This is something that everyone in the hobby should pay attention to. Immune, quarantined, or swimming in the ocean free, fish have the best chance at a long and healthy life if fed properly.
I prophylactically treat my fish in QT before adding them to my DT. Why? I believe it gives me the greatest chance for success in this hobby. I don't have PaulB's experience maintaining a healthy reef like environment. I can't take a 20 minute drive and pull fresh bacteria and parasite loaded seafood out of the ocean. This method does have it's downside. If I screw up my QT and introduce something like velvet into my DT I will likely wipe my tank. So I feed my fish as well as I can, and try to keep my "boy in the bubble" fish as healthy yet isolated as possible.
Running a system without QT opens up 2 likely paths. Either you rely on luck or you hope your fish are healthy enough to develop an immunity to whatever they are exposed to. The nice part of running a "fish immunity" system is that the introduction of a new fish is highly unlikely to wipe your tank. The downside is that the fish you try to add are less likely to live when added to the system. A fish will typically lose it's immunity to a parasite within 6 months of exposure to that parasite being removed. Paul's fish remain "immune" to ich and velvet because they are continuously exposed to it. This means if a new fish is introduced, it will also be exposed to these parasites. If it hasn't developed an immunity prior to it being introduced it is a roll of the dice if the fish will develop an immunity prior to dying. If Paul mail ordered a fish (I just can't see him doing that) and dumped it into his DT I wouldn't give it a high chance to make it. If it did make it a month, I would give it a great chance to live 10+ years. Paul knows what a healthy fish looks like. He knows which fish are not suitable for his system and avoids them. He knows how to maintain proper water quality. This gives him a much higher chance at success than someone with only a few years of experience in the hobby. There is a reason his book isn't name "Reefing for Noobs".
Oh.. and PaulB knows supermodels are where it is at! :p
I want to start by saying I think PaulB is exactly on point with the importance of good nutrition when it comes to feeding fish. This is something that everyone in the hobby should pay attention to. Immune, quarantined, or swimming in the ocean free, fish have the best chance at a long and healthy life if fed properly.
I prophylactically treat my fish in QT before adding them to my DT. Why? I believe it gives me the greatest chance for success in this hobby. I don't have PaulB's experience maintaining a healthy reef like environment. I can't take a 20 minute drive and pull fresh bacteria and parasite loaded seafood out of the ocean. This method does have it's downside. If I screw up my QT and introduce something like velvet into my DT I will likely wipe my tank. So I feed my fish as well as I can, and try to keep my "boy in the bubble" fish as healthy yet isolated as possible.
Running a system without QT opens up 2 likely paths. Either you rely on luck or you hope your fish are healthy enough to develop an immunity to whatever they are exposed to. The nice part of running a "fish immunity" system is that the introduction of a new fish is highly unlikely to wipe your tank. The downside is that the fish you try to add are less likely to live when added to the system. A fish will typically lose it's immunity to a parasite within 6 months of exposure to that parasite being removed. Paul's fish remain "immune" to ich and velvet because they are continuously exposed to it. This means if a new fish is introduced, it will also be exposed to these parasites. If it hasn't developed an immunity prior to it being introduced it is a roll of the dice if the fish will develop an immunity prior to dying. If Paul mail ordered a fish (I just can't see him doing that) and dumped it into his DT I wouldn't give it a high chance to make it. If it did make it a month, I would give it a great chance to live 10+ years. Paul knows what a healthy fish looks like. He knows which fish are not suitable for his system and avoids them. He knows how to maintain proper water quality. This gives him a much higher chance at success than someone with only a few years of experience in the hobby. There is a reason his book isn't name "Reefing for Noobs".
Oh.. and PaulB knows supermodels are where it is at! :p
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Paul, unfortunately people that try your methods end up on the disease board frustrated that they've lost everything and lots of fish die. It's not really your methods rather than no one can reasonably reconstruct them and see them through completely. What works for you doesn't for the overwhelming majority of other reefers even short term (say 5 years). Add in many tangs (other than hippo and zebrasoma but particularly acanthurus) many angels, and other parasite prone difficult fish and your method will fail with a vengeance. Not because of a lack of supermodels, but because it's a different animal. While an F150 Raptor and a Porsche 911 are both automobiles, you won't be able to take your sports car where you do your raptor, at least long term. There's a plethora of fish that can build a resistance to parasites and often do.
The reality is most people love to keep tangs and angels. If you peruse the disease forum that's what you'll see the vast majority of people having issues with. They read what you say and think they can do the same (with far less knowledge, experience, and skill than you) and kill copious amounts of fish coming to the same conclusion that I did after a long fought ornery battle where I wanted to believe I could replicate what you do, but with many tangs angels and difficult fish. It's not just me that's failed we see and hear about it every day. My point is that if you want to truly educate people on your ways, you're better off telling the complete story and full picture.
Most people in this hobby haven't been here 5 years let alone 50. Many lack the experience and stability you provide. The overwhelming majority of hobbyists don't feed their fish as well as you do and don't intend to do so with their busy family and work lives long term. They also wish to keep fish that you don't have that are exponentially more likely to die in those conditions (even your own).
I know ich management works to some extent I did it for a decade myself. My struggles were with acanthurus tangs and a few other tangs and angels, a few odd butterflies, and other hard to keep species.
For someone that wants to keep hardier fish with thick slime coats your methods (or what ends up being only a fraction of your methods) can work.
The other issue is velvet, it's so much more common today and it decimates people's tanks, including many of us that "successfully" managed parasites in our tank for some time.
I know you mean well and I have a world of respect for you and find you very entertaining and a genuinely great person. I just wanted to attempt to paint the other side of the picture for you, from someone that was almost entirely agreeable to you as little as 2-3 years ago.
Cheers my friend,
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
I hope you take the time and have the interest to learn. With your background you have a huge head start on us when it comes to this topic!
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