A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

Sundog. Thank you. That picture was the first day I got him. He picks at the coral but not much. I have had them before and they ate worms. This one was almost dead when I got him so I will see what happens. I do feed live worms every day but this one has no interest. He didn't lose any weight so I guess he is getting what he needs from the coral.
A Figure 8 puffer was my first salt water fish. I bought him in fresh water then converted my tank to brackish. After a while salt water fish were imported and I added more salt to make my tank full salt. That puffer developed a large tumor inside his belly and couldn't swim. I opened him up in some wet cotton with a razor blade and excised the tumor. Then I hand fed him with a tooth pick for a few days until he recovered where he went on to live another eight years. Very nice fish :)

 

[Chrisfish]

Your filefish looks really good. I had one for about 3 months before he died. He ate everything and I'm not sure what happened. I'm thinking maybe an internal issue or cyanide collection (though I would think he would be dead before 3 months). I fed him white worms using this. It's a pipette with holes in it.

Are those dwarf puffer fish in the picture?

 

[sundog101]

Yes, but I actually got the picture online.
I didn't know they could be in full saltwater. I may have to get one.

 

[mcarroll]

Lore had it (never actaully researched them) that they would actaully do much better in full saltwater as they got older....they're only fresh/brackish as young or subadults.

 

[Paul B]

Those tetrodon puffers do great in salt water as do little bumblebee gobies. Bumblebees are real cute, look exactly like yellow jacket bees and cost like 3 bucks. I had them for quite a while in my reef but they need small preferably live foods like worms

 

[mcarroll]

There was a great old LFS I used to go to in Ohio called Byerly's that always had stuff like that in stock. They went out of business in the 2000s. :(

 

[sundog101]

I found this article and thought I would share it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464810000677

"The involvement of probiotics in nutrition, disease resistance and other beneficial activities in fish has proven beyond any doubt."

 

[Paul B]

That's a great article and what I have been researching and believing for a long time.

 

[Paul B]

There was a Doctor on TV this week who must have read this thread (yeah right) because he was talking about eating dirt to enhance your immunity and why so many people get sick now. Of course I related this to fish.

I read everything this man wrote then googled "Eat Dirt" and found a wealth of information on why eating dirt is good for you. No, don't go out and eat dirt, read the article first. But what he says and what I read on a few more places on the subject.

Also this from the American Medical Association a couple of months ago:



“Countless studies have found children who spend recess time in a green environment, rather than on cement or blacktop, perform better on tests in the classroom, have reduced symptoms of ADHD and stress, and lower risk of obesity,” she says. “They’re also more likely to have perfect vision than those who spend most of their time indoors.”

- See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf





There are data that say our immune system and bodies in general, function best when exposed to not only microbes, or organisms, but also to diversity too. That has to come not only from a diverse diet, but also the environment. Quite simply, our kids need to go out and play in the dirt.





For example, regular use of bleach is associated with more – not fewer – infections in kids, according to a 2015 study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine. “Children aren’t as healthy as they once were or as they could be,” she says. “I’ve observed more incidences of chronic illness and health issues like allergies, diabetes and neuropsychiatric issues.” - See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf "





The Data goes on and on. I feel and have always felt that we keep our tanks much to clean and our fish food much to sterile. New research suggests this and you can find it all over the place.

I believe it because I am an outdoor kind of a guy and always have been. I never believed you have to wash your hands every time you eat unless you just got off the New York City Subway system because that is not dirt. That is bubonic plague, typhoid, diphtheria and any number of social diseases, but if you were just working in the garden or you just helped a Supermodel jump start her car, those germs won't hurt you. (unless the Supermodel just got off the subway and that is not likely to happen because Supermodels would never ride in a subway)

As I have said numerous times feeding live worms and other foods that have not been sterilized is the reason my fish are immune from (so far) everything. It is the "dirt" and associated bacteria and parasites that are the secret.

I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms.

 

[Diesel]

There was a Doctor on TV this week who must have read this thread (yeah right) because he was talking about eating dirt to enhance your immunity and why so many people get sick now. Of course I related this to fish.

I read everything this man wrote then googled "Eat Dirt" and found a wealth of information on why eating dirt is good for you. No, don't go out and eat dirt, read the article first. But what he says and what I read on a few more places on the subject.

Also this from the American Medical Association a couple of months ago:



“Countless studies have found children who spend recess time in a green environment, rather than on cement or blacktop, perform better on tests in the classroom, have reduced symptoms of ADHD and stress, and lower risk of obesity,” she says. “They’re also more likely to have perfect vision than those who spend most of their time indoors.”

- See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf





There are data that say our immune system and bodies in general, function best when exposed to not only microbes, or organisms, but also to diversity too. That has to come not only from a diverse diet, but also the environment. Quite simply, our kids need to go out and play in the dirt.





For example, regular use of bleach is associated with more – not fewer – infections in kids, according to a 2015 study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine. “Children aren’t as healthy as they once were or as they could be,” she says. “I’ve observed more incidences of chronic illness and health issues like allergies, diabetes and neuropsychiatric issues.” - See more at: http://www.lifescript.com/health/centers/allergies/articles/dirt_can_give_kids_a_cleaner_bill_of_health.aspx#sthash.WOkFbtIv.dpuf "





The Data goes on and on. I feel and have always felt that we keep our tanks much to clean and our fish food much to sterile. New research suggests this and you can find it all over the place.

I believe it because I am an outdoor kind of a guy and always have been. I never believed you have to wash your hands every time you eat unless you just got off the New York City Subway system because that is not dirt. That is bubonic plague, typhoid, diphtheria and any number of social diseases, but if you were just working in the garden or you just helped a Supermodel jump start her car, those germs won't hurt you. (unless the Supermodel just got off the subway and that is not likely to happen because Supermodels would never ride in a subway)

As I have said numerous times feeding live worms and other foods that have not been sterilized is the reason my fish are immune from (so far) everything. It is the "dirt" and associated bacteria and parasites that are the secret.

I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms.

Nice!

Btw, Paul I didn't forgot about you my friend, keep a eye or eyes as you better see with two than one :rolleyes: on the mailbox.
Make sure that you snow blow the sidewalk, that only if your shoulder will let you.

 

[Paul B]

I already got my neighbors lined up to snow blow my sidewalk. I have a corner property and 3 driveways so they have a lot of work to do.
Here was my house 2 years ago. That's almost 3' deep

 

[mcarroll]

must have read this thread (yeah right) because he was talking about eating dirt to enhance your immunity

Taking us back (at least) to post #85!!!

 

[Paul B]

Or ones who were QT'd and are in tip top shape because they have no diseases for their immune system to worry about. :D

Humble, I "think" there may be a problem with this scenario. When fish are born, the fry get their immunity from their Mother just as we do. Babies in the womb are kind of sterile, or they should be.
If a Mother fish is quarantined for an extended time, and if she was never exposed to parasites or other pathogens where would the fry get their immunity from? And "what" would they be immune from and how?
How many fish do you know of that were quarantined and spawned, and had their babies grow to adulthood?
I am not saying it can't happen, I am just curious. I have many times raised fish from eggs but I am not sure if fish with no immunity can grow healthy babies. I would assume the fry can eventually develop an immune system but they would first have to be exposed to a pathogen to develop such resistance. Or am I senile!

 

[eatbreakfast]

When fish are born, the fry get their immunity from their Mother just as we do. Babies in the womb are kind of sterile, or they should be.

Are you sure about this? In humans the immunity is passed to the infant in the final 3 months of development through the placenta, and is 'fortified' through nursing. Since fish eggs are externally fertilized and are never nursed, passing alomg immunity in that way wouldn't occur.

Also, all the studies I saw, referenced fish fry not having a developed immune system immediately post hatch.

 

[Paul B]

Aha, But you missed it. Somewhere in this long thread I linked something about fry acquiring immunity through their Mother. I found this but it is not the exact long explanation I found before. You only need to read the sentences I highlighted in Red.

Quote:
Fish Shellfish Immunol. 2006 Feb;20(2):137-51.
Innate immunity of fish (overview).
Magnadóttir B1.
Author information

• 1Institute for Experimental Pathology, University of Iceland, Keldur v. Vesturlandsveg, IS-112 Reykjavík, Iceland. [email protected]

Abstract
The innate immune system is the only defence weapon of invertebrates and a fundamental defence mechanism of fish. The innate system also plays an instructive role in the acquired immune response and homeostasis and is therefore equally important in higher vertebrates. The innate system's recognition of non-self and danger signals is served by a limited number of germ-line encoded pattern recognition receptors/proteins, which recognise pathogen associated molecular patterns like bacterial and fungal glycoproteins and lipopolysaccharides and intracellular components released through injury or infection. The innate immune system is divided into physical barriers, cellular and humoral components. Humoral parameters include growth inhibitors, various lytic enzymes and components of the complement pathways, agglutinins and precipitins (opsonins, primarily lectins), natural antibodies, cytokines, chemokines and antibacterial peptides. Several external and internal factors can influence the activity of innate immune parameters. Temperature changes, handling and crowding stress can have suppressive effects on innate parameters, whereas several food additives and immunostimulants can enhance different innate factors. There is limited data available about the ontogenic development of the innate immunological system in fish. Active phagocytes, complement components and enzyme activity, like lysozyme and cathepsins, are present early in the development, before or soon after hatching.

PMID:
15950491
DOI:
10.1016/j.fsi.2004.09.006
This is just something else I found on a fishes immune system but it only emphasizes what was already discussed.:

Quote: (I didn't write this next part)

All fish have an immune system to fight diseases, although the system is by no means as advanced as the ones found in mammals. The system breaks down into two main parts: protection from physical invasion and internal pathogen handling.
Physical protection comes in the form of scales and the layers of dermis and epidermis. These provide defense against physical injury and disease organisms in the environment, which is further improved by a mucus covering that contains bactericides and fungicides. This mucus membrane is constantly renewed. It helps slough off debris and discourages parasites from attaching themselves to the fish.

Pathogens can still enter the fish’s body, either through physical injury or the digestive tract. Although the digestive system has active enzymes and a very pathogen-unfriendly pH level, diseases can sometimes survive. Stress can also be a problem if it causes the gut to seize up -- anaerobic fermentation and active enzymes can attack the gut wall and weaken it enough to allow diseases to enter.

The efficiency of a fish’s immune system is affected by its environment. Colder water slows down the system, so infected fishes tend to exhibit “fever symptoms” and head for warmer areas. Colder water may or may not affect the infection: if it does not slow down the pathogens as well as the immune system, death is inevitable.
Fishes have some general immunities provided by products in their blood: the antiviral chemical interferon and C-reactive protein immediately attack bacteria and viruses.

As soon as a pathogen is detected, the fish’s body coordinates efforts to resist: firstly, the entry point is sealed off to correct any osmoregulatory problems and hamper the foreign body’s progression. Histamines and other products are produced by damaged cells at the entry point to cause inflammation and make the blood cells close up. Fibrinogen (a blood protein) and clotting factors create a barrier of fibrin to build a physical barrier at the same time. White blood cells are attracted to the same area and pick up the foreign bodies, taking them away to the spleen and kidney for handling.
Unfortunately, many bacteria have ways to beat these defenses, either by producing a dissolving agent that destroys the fibrin and opens the way to infection or by releasing toxins that attack and kill white blood cells.

The kidney and spleen make antibodies specifically built to fight each particular antigen (invading disease). This process can take up to two weeks. The antibodies attach themselves to their antigen and fight it in one of three ways:

1. Detoxify it – so that white blood cells can ingest and destroy it
2. Attract a “compliment” – another blood component that helps destroy the antigen
3. Deactivate reproduction – to stop the antigen proliferating

As in all immune systems, a familiar antigen is dealt with quicker than a new one. The system reacts quicker, antibodies already exist and they multiply extremely quickly upon contact with their antigen. This is the same principle used in vaccination, where a detoxified antigen is introduced to allow a fish time to build appropriate antibodies without danger. If the full-blown disease is encountered later, the immune system can gear-up much faster and survival chances are increased.

It is important to note that environmental pollution also hampers the immune system and reduces a fish’s response to pathogens.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Aha, But you missed it. Somewhere in this long thread I linked something about fry acquiring immunity through their Mother. I found this but it is not the exact long explanation I found before. You only need to read the sentences I highlighted in Red.

Quote:
Fish Shellfish Immunol. 2006 Feb;20(2):137-51.
Innate immunity of fish (overview).
Magnadóttir B1.
Author information

• 1Institute for Experimental Pathology, University of Iceland, Keldur v. Vesturlandsveg, IS-112 Reykjavík, Iceland. [email protected]

Abstract
The innate immune system is the only defence weapon of invertebrates and a fundamental defence mechanism of fish. The innate system also plays an instructive role in the acquired immune response and homeostasis and is therefore equally important in higher vertebrates. The innate system's recognition of non-self and danger signals is served by a limited number of germ-line encoded pattern recognition receptors/proteins, which recognise pathogen associated molecular patterns like bacterial and fungal glycoproteins and lipopolysaccharides and intracellular components released through injury or infection. The innate immune system is divided into physical barriers, cellular and humoral components. Humoral parameters include growth inhibitors, various lytic enzymes and components of the complement pathways, agglutinins and precipitins (opsonins, primarily lectins), natural antibodies, cytokines, chemokines and antibacterial peptides. Several external and internal factors can influence the activity of innate immune parameters. Temperature changes, handling and crowding stress can have suppressive effects on innate parameters, whereas several food additives and immunostimulants can enhance different innate factors. There is limited data available about the ontogenic development of the innate immunological system in fish. Active phagocytes, complement components and enzyme activity, like lysozyme and cathepsins, are present early in the development, before or soon after hatching.

PMID:
15950491
DOI:
10.1016/j.fsi.2004.09.006
This is just something else I found on a fishes immune system but it only emphasizes what was already discussed.:

Quote: (I didn't write this next part)

All fish have an immune system to fight diseases, although the system is by no means as advanced as the ones found in mammals. The system breaks down into two main parts: protection from physical invasion and internal pathogen handling.
Physical protection comes in the form of scales and the layers of dermis and epidermis. These provide defense against physical injury and disease organisms in the environment, which is further improved by a mucus covering that contains bactericides and fungicides. This mucus membrane is constantly renewed. It helps slough off debris and discourages parasites from attaching themselves to the fish.

Pathogens can still enter the fish’s body, either through physical injury or the digestive tract. Although the digestive system has active enzymes and a very pathogen-unfriendly pH level, diseases can sometimes survive. Stress can also be a problem if it causes the gut to seize up -- anaerobic fermentation and active enzymes can attack the gut wall and weaken it enough to allow diseases to enter.

The efficiency of a fish’s immune system is affected by its environment. Colder water slows down the system, so infected fishes tend to exhibit “fever symptoms” and head for warmer areas. Colder water may or may not affect the infection: if it does not slow down the pathogens as well as the immune system, death is inevitable.
Fishes have some general immunities provided by products in their blood: the antiviral chemical interferon and C-reactive protein immediately attack bacteria and viruses.

As soon as a pathogen is detected, the fish’s body coordinates efforts to resist: firstly, the entry point is sealed off to correct any osmoregulatory problems and hamper the foreign body’s progression. Histamines and other products are produced by damaged cells at the entry point to cause inflammation and make the blood cells close up. Fibrinogen (a blood protein) and clotting factors create a barrier of fibrin to build a physical barrier at the same time. White blood cells are attracted to the same area and pick up the foreign bodies, taking them away to the spleen and kidney for handling.
Unfortunately, many bacteria have ways to beat these defenses, either by producing a dissolving agent that destroys the fibrin and opens the way to infection or by releasing toxins that attack and kill white blood cells.

The kidney and spleen make antibodies specifically built to fight each particular antigen (invading disease). This process can take up to two weeks. The antibodies attach themselves to their antigen and fight it in one of three ways:

1. Detoxify it – so that white blood cells can ingest and destroy it
2. Attract a “compliment” – another blood component that helps destroy the antigen
3. Deactivate reproduction – to stop the antigen proliferating

As in all immune systems, a familiar antigen is dealt with quicker than a new one. The system reacts quicker, antibodies already exist and they multiply extremely quickly upon contact with their antigen. This is the same principle used in vaccination, where a detoxified antigen is introduced to allow a fish time to build appropriate antibodies without danger. If the full-blown disease is encountered later, the immune system can gear-up much faster and survival chances are increased.

It is important to note that environmental pollution also hampers the immune system and reduces a fish’s response to pathogens.

You are infering waaaay too much in the first highlighted source. When it is speaking of active phagocytes, lysozymes, and cathepsins, these are 'generilzed functions' that exist as part of a general, though not necessarily completely developed immune system. To say that fry get these from their mother would be to say that they get their scales and slime coat from their mother, still part of the immune defenses, but not actually already possessing the 'familiarity' with specific pathogens or capable of presenting a fully formed 'defense'.

 

[mcarroll]

Complement.

Yes there is a substance called "complement" flowing around your (and your fish's) body.

 

[mcarroll]

You are infering waaaay too much in the first highlighted source. When it is speaking of active phagocytes, lysozymes, and cathepsins, these are 'generilzed functions' that exist as part of a general, though not necessarily completely developed immune system. To say that fry get these from their mother would be to say that they get their scales and slime coat from their mother, still part of the immune defenses, but not actually already possessing the 'familiarity' with specific pathogens or capable of presenting a fully formed 'defense'.

Can you finish the thought and let us know when they do get a fully formed defense?

Surely there is an article which can be cited.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Immunity in fish larvae.
(PMID:9270831)
Citations
Related Articles
Zapata AG , Torroba M , Varas A , Jiménez AV
Abstract
The route of immunization, dose and nature of antigens are relevant for induction of specific immune responses but they are particularly influenced by the state of immunomaturation of fish. It is difficult, however, to determine when the fish immune system has matured and, accordingly, when the fry can be successfully vaccinated. To establish some general parameters which can correlate the development of protective immunity with maturation of the immune system we review: (i) the appearance of first lympho-haemopoietic cell precursors; (ii) the histological and functional maturation of lymphoid organs; (iii) the relevance of phagocytosis and transport of maternal Ig to eggs for early vaccination; (iv) the appearance of both T-like and B-like cells and their correlation with the development of the cell-mediated and humoral immune responses and (v) the mechanisms which may be involved in the induction of tolerance following early immunization of fry. These data rather than a general rule for vaccination of larval fish indicate that the earliest age (size) that a fish can be vaccinated differs between species and vaccines.

It varoes between species hen it is developed.

The ontogenic development of innate immune parameters of cod (Gadus morhua L.)
Bergljót MagnadóttirSigrun LangeSigridur Gudmundsdóttir

Abstract
The aim of this study was to monitor the ontogenic development of innate immune parameters of cod (Gadus morhua L.) and to determine the presence of maternal IgM. The general protein composition and enzyme activity was also studied. At intervals, samples were collected of fertilized cod eggs and larvae from 3 days after fertilization until 57 days after hatching. Cell lysates were prepared and analysed by Western blotting using antibodies prepared against cod IgM, the complement component C3 and C-reactive protein (CRP) as well as against cod serum proteins and haemoglobin. Antibodies against salmon cathepsins and against several mammalian proteins of immunological significance were also used. Maternal IgM was not detected but C3 and the closely associated apolipoprotein A-I were present from the time of embryo organogenesis. C-reactive protein was not detected and none of the antibodies against mammalian immune parameters cross-reacted with the cod material. Protein and proteomic analysis showed that the major proteins of the egg samples were vitellogenin derived maternal proteins. Other non-vitellogenin maternal proteins, not yet identified, were also detected in the fertilized eggs. Cathepsin was present in all samples, but other enzyme activity was restricted to larval samples from 4 days after hatching when feeding had commenced. Haemoglobin was not detected until 10 days after hatching

Actual antibodies from the mother were not present.

 

[mcarroll]

It seems like you say "No you don't get it." with more confidence than the articles. ;)

Then it seems like you just say it's grey.

Then something about no antibodies in cod babies.

If you don't know either, then that's cool – mostly nobody here knowns squat on the subject.

But if you can't say when our fish do acquire immmunty then I'm not sure we're moving forward in understanding.

Going back to the quote:

Temperature changes, handling and crowding stress can have suppressive effects on innate parameters, whereas several food additives and immunostimulants can enhance different innate factors. There is limited data available about the ontogenic development of the innate immunological system in fish. Active phagocytes, complement components and enzyme activity, like lysozyme and cathepsins, are present early in the development, before or soon after hatching.

First off, that paragraph speaks mountains to the problems that most folks have keeping fish alive and I believe this point is being missed entirely.

We regularly keep tanks with all those stress factors mentioned, which means we regularly keep tanks full of immunosuppressed fish. (Or at least fish recovering from being immunosuppressed.)

This is the really interesting part to me, really.

But back to the criticism...

This article is not talking about the secondary, or acquired immune system, it's talking about the innate (or auto-) immune system.

I say this counts. I'm not sure if you were insinuating that this doesn't cound, but if you think it doesn't, you should explain why. (Because I'd like to understand!)

The innate immune system is the basis for the acquired immune system and I'm pretty sure there have been links posted supporting this before too.