A discussion on immunity

[mcarroll]

I'm pretty sure there have been links posted supporting this before too.

Upon a quick search I think that was posted in another thread......but trust me it's true. ;)

This is also interesting:
Immunological Control of Fish Diseases

One shnibbit...

The main prophylactic measures are covered, including vaccination, probiotics and immunostimulation.

Funny to me that QT was not listed. It's just an ironic omission, I'm sure. ;)

Another quote:

The innate parameters are at the forefront of immune defence in fish and are a crucial factor in disease resistance.

 

[mcarroll]

For anyone disinclined to click the link, here is a nice introductory summary:

The classical division of the immune system is into the
innate and the adaptive systems. The innate system is an
evolutionary ancient system present in both invertebrates
and vertebrates. It is composed of germ-line encoded,
relatively non-specific recognition parameters (although
this is debatable), showing instant action but of short
duration. The innate system’s response to pathogens is
determined by the evolutionary lineage and genetic make-
up and has been tailored through time by environmental
factors and pathogenic associations. The specificity of the
innate defence is therefore an inheritable trait (Janeway and
Medzhitov 1998; Carroll and Janeway 1999; Du Pasquier
2001; Du Pasquier 2004; Alvarez-Pellitero 2008).​

Bolding mine.

(I'm not that Carroll. Though I will admit to watching Star Trek Voyager quite religiously back in 1999.)

 

[eatbreakfast]

The way Paul framed the comparison is that fish get the same passive immunity from their mothers as humans do.

My issue with that is fact that antibodies that reconize specific pathogens is present in human mothers and these 'preprogrammed' antibodies are transferred to the infant. A mother fish that has active antibodies does not pass these antibodies to her young, but instead the building blocks are passed on.

For fish, those active anibodies last anywhere from a month-3yrs, depending on the fish and the pathogen, but the innate traits that are passed on are not linked to these 'temporary' functions, but rather a more permanent predisposition on the genetic level.

 

[mcarroll]

Another work from AG Zapata & Co:
Ontogeny of the immune system of fish
which the author hosts in full here:
Ontogeny of the immune system of fish

Adding this article to my list for sure. :)

 

[Paul B]

mostly nobody here knows squat on the subject.

This, I agree with. :rolleyes:

A mother fish that has active antibodies does not pass these antibodies to her young, but instead the building blocks are passed on.

OK, I don't really know, I think it's kind of semantics but I may be wrong. I "assume" that a new born fish must have some sort of immunity from parasites or there would be no fish. Just an assumption on my part being the oceans are more full of parasites, then they are of fish. (another assumption on my part)
I do know that there are antibodies in a fishes blood, so I would "assume" those antibodies would be passed on to it's offspring's blood. I did find it once and I will look for it again. Even if I find it written that doesn't mean it is true.
I do know that in my, parasite laden tank fish have spawned and grew to adulthood many times. I asked if anyone had fish spawn in a fully quarantined tank and if the babies grew into adulthood. I am not sure that would prove anything but it would be interesting to know. :cool:

I found this interesting in one of those links you posted Ed
Quote:
Erythrocytes and macrophages are the first blood cells to be identified in zebrafish embryos

 

[Paul B]

I also found this:
Maternal immunity in fish

• Shicui Zhanga, , ,
• Zhiping Wangb,
• Hongmiao Wanga

• a Institute of Evolution and Marine Biodiversity and Department of Marine Biology, Ocean University of China, Qingdao 266003, China
• b Department of Life Science, Weinan Teachers University, Weinan 714000, China

Available online 28 February 2012
Check access


Purchase $35.95

• 

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.dci.2012.02.009
Get rights and content


Abstract
Both innate and adaptive immune-relevant factors are transferred from mother to offspring in fishes. These maternally-transferred factors include IgM, lysozymes, lectin, cathelicidin and complement components. Recently, yolk proteins, phosvitin and lipovitellin, have been shown to be maternally-transferred factors, functioning in the defense of teleost larvae against pathogens. Among these factors, the mode of action of complement components and yolk proteins has been explored, whereas that of all the other factors remains elusive. At present, the transfer mechanisms of maternally-derived immune factors are largely unknown although those of IgM and yolk protein transmission from mother to offspring have been reported in some fishes. Maternal transfer of immunity is affected by many elements, including biological factors, such as age and maturation, and environmental conditions experienced by brood fish, such as pathogens and nutritional supply. Practically, the manipulation of maternal immunity transfer can be used to enhance the survival rate of fish larvae.

Highlights
► Both innate and adaptive immune factors are transferred from fish mother to offspring. ► Vg-derived proteins and complement in eggs protect embryo from pathogenic attack. ► Vg-derived proteins function as a sensor, an antimicrobial effector and an opsonin. ► Complement in eggs protects embryos via alternative pathway activation. ► Maternal transfer of IgM and yolk proteins involves a receptor-mediated transcytosis.

Abbreviations

• Vg, vitellogenin;
• Pv, phosvitin;
• Lv, lipovitellin;
• CP, classical pathway;
• AP, alternative pathway;
• LP, lectin pathway;
• MBL, mannose-binding lectin;
• PAMPs, pathogen-associated molecular patterns;
• LPS, lipopolysaccharide;
• LTA, lipoteichoic acid;
• PGN, peptidoglycan

Keywords

• Fish;
• Maternal immunity;
• Maternal transfer;
• Egg;
• Yolk proteins

Corresponding author. Address: Room 205, Ke Xue Guan, 5 Yushan Road, Ocean University of China, Qingdao 266003, China. Tel.: +86 532 82032787.
Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

 

[Humblefish]

At the end of the day, a new fish is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get. ;)

Maybe you get this hulk of a fish that is immune to everything or maybe you get a Typhoid Mary. :eek: Watching the fish for 5 minutes before you buy it doesn't really tell you much, not to mention a fish bought over the Internet sight unseen. And all the proper nutrition isn't gonna help an already sick fish, especially one refusing to eat.

So, the sick fish dies in your DT and you bet the house that your existing fishes' natural immunity will keep them safe. I guess I see how that can work. However, I still feel it's a reckless thing to do when a couple weeks worth of passive observation in QT (no meds) would allow the new fish to pass away without endangering everyone else. Personally, I'd be ticked if someone purposely stuck me in the same room with a sick guy when an alternative was available. :D

 

[Joey waid]

At the end of the day, a new fish is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get. ;)

Maybe you get this hulk of a fish that is immune to everything or maybe you get a Typhoid Mary. :eek: Watching the fish for 5 minutes before you buy it doesn't really tell you much, not to mention a fish bought over the Internet sight unseen. And all the proper nutrition isn't gonna help an already sick fish, especially one refusing to eat.

So, the sick fish dies in your DT and you bet the house that your existing fishes' natural immunity will keep them safe. I guess I see how that can work. However, I still feel it's a reckless thing to do when a couple weeks worth of passive observation in QT (no meds) would allow the new fish to pass away without endangering everyone else. Personally, I'd be ****** if someone purposely stuck me in the same room with a sick guy when an alternative was available. :D

We can't say****** on here...

 

[4FordFamily]

At the end of the day, a new fish is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you're gonna get. ;)

Maybe you get this hulk of a fish that is immune to everything or maybe you get a Typhoid Mary. :eek: Watching the fish for 5 minutes before you buy it doesn't really tell you much, not to mention a fish bought over the Internet sight unseen. And all the proper nutrition isn't gonna help an already sick fish, especially one refusing to eat.

So, the sick fish dies in your DT and you bet the house that your existing fishes' natural immunity will keep them safe. I guess I see how that can work. However, I still feel it's a reckless thing to do when a couple weeks worth of passive observation in QT (no meds) would allow the new fish to pass away without endangering everyone else. Personally, I'd be ****** if someone purposely stuck me in the same room with a sick guy when an alternative was available. :D

AMEN

 

[4FordFamily]

We can't say****** on here...

He's Humblefish he can do whatever he wants :D

 

[Humblefish]

He's Humblefish he can do whatever he wants :D

Apparently I can't get around the word filter (wasn't aware that word was censored). ;)

 

[4FordFamily]

Apparently I can't get around the word filter (wasn't aware that word was censored). ;)

We knew what ya meant :D

 

[mcarroll]

Watching the fish for 5 minutes before you buy it doesn't really tell you much, not to mention a fish bought over the Internet sight unseen.

This would imply that you don't have a local fish store.....an unfortunate state, indeed. I would not trust fish from these circumstances either.

In fact, I'm not sure I'd buy fish at all under these circumstances – I typically watch fish at the store for the two weeks or until I'm comfortable with it.

In that type of case where you have no clue as to the fish's original circumstances, I would still suggest that if you run a stereotypical bare/minimal QT setup to forget these fish as they aren't likely to come out from QT any healthier.

If you run a "full size QT" (which would imply a larger sized, more full-featured QT plus separate full size hospital/treatment tanks for use as-needed) then by all means run a minimum 2-week observation period and pamper the h**L out of them.

But...

This still isn't a magic bullet vs direct or carrier transmission of some pathogen or other. This is just risk-reduction.

So if your display is still full of immunocompromised fish from their being overstocked and/or under-nourished, etc, then you are still just temping fate by adding new fish.

 

[Paul B]

Humble, you are missing the point. First of all I have X Ray vision and can see if the fish is healthy. But besides that, I don't really have to care if the fish is healthy because he will become immune and will not infect anything in my tank because they are immune. Remember 35 years with no diseases, to me that means immunity. But even if you don't believe that, and I can tell by your body language that you don't.
This entire exercise is to keep the fish healthy for it's entire life time by keeping the fishes immune system doing what it is paid to do.
I don't just want to see the fish swim around for a few weeks, I want it to live for it's entire lifespan while not becoming sick and spawning. I proved that my fish do that and want to see a bunch of 25 year old quarantined fish that are spawning and their offspring are growing. That would tell me that immune fish can live out their life healthy. Immune fish just don't get sick which is why I have never posted on a disease thread about my fish.
I like proof and I have it for immunity. Doesn't it bother you that there are so many sick fish in this hobby? It bothers me and I think we are doing this all wrong. It's all about gut bacteria, immunity and Supermodels.
By the way I like chocolates if you didn't get me anything for Christmas yet. :rolleyes:

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Hey Paul I hope all is well and you are getting ready for a great Christmas! I saw your post above and it peaked my curiosity regarding QT protocols and possible effects on spawning behavior. I reached out to my buddy who was instrumental in breeding the Blue Tangs at the University of Florida and he advised me the broodstock went through the following QT protocol:

"The blue tangs that produced the first captive bred juveniles went through 30 days of copper sulfate at .2 ppm, 3 treatments of levamisole, and 2 treatments of praziquantel."

If I had to guess I would think that many other aquaculture facilities have similar QT processes in place as well as a safeguard before introducing broodstock into their holding systems.

You mentioned in post #290 that "I feel we should keep our fish away from foods that claim that they are free from parasites and harmful organisms." I would assert that almost ANY frozen food which went through proper processing and freezing would be rendered free from parasites. I know here we store ingredients and packaged food at -24 degrees F before it ships out. Many public aquariums have their own protocols to store incoming foods in their freezer for a period ranging from 1-3 weeks. It is believed that this "deep freeze" kills any parasites which could have found their way into the food.

I wasn't jumping in to contradict anyone, but rather wanted to add a couple tidbits of info which may help provide a little clarity. Have a great holiday everyone!

 

[Humblefish]

This still isn't a magic bullet vs direct or carrier transmission of some pathogen or other. This is just risk-reduction.

So if your display is still full of immunocompromised fish from their being overstocked and/or under-nourished, etc, then you are still just temping fate by adding new fish.

1 month of passive observation (no meds) is usually enough time to determine if a fish has velvet, brook and other serious diseases. For those freaked out by the concept of a bare bottom, rockless QT you can do passive observation in a Mini-Me of your DT. :D A smaller frag tank usually works nicely. Just have an empty tank on standby in case the fish breaks out with disease.

Ich, flukes and other "mild diseases" may still make their way into your DT if you elect to only passively observe. However, a healthy fish's natural immune system is better equipped to defend against those and at least you should be keeping the "tank killers" like velvet out of your DT thru passive observation. Not ideal; but still better than just dumping who knows what right into your DT. ;)

 

[mcarroll]

I would assert that almost ANY frozen food which went through proper processing and freezing would be rendered free from parasites. I know here we store ingredients and packaged food at -24 degrees F before it ships out.

In my view, you are adding probiotics to make up for this fact. Which it does, at least in part.

So I don't think you're advocating for fish to eat sterile diets, are you?

 

[mcarroll]

"The blue tangs that produced the first captive bred juveniles went through 30 days of copper sulfate at .2 ppm, 3 treatments of levamisole, and 2 treatments of praziquantel."

If I had to guess I would think that many other aquaculture facilities have similar QT processes in place as well as a safeguard before introducing broodstock into their holding systems.

Also, one of the links posted in the flurry above indicated that in an experiment, fish kept isolated/sterile can still pick up immunity components from tank mates. (I wish I were fluent in immunity jargon....I know I used no correct terms in that statement...but the links above said it right. ;) )

Mostly for what it's worth.

Also FWIW, I will (re)state that at the store I worked at, we noticed distinct differences in immunity between captive-bred (predominantly ORA stock) and wild fish.

As part of our QT we ended up keeping the two populations isolated from one another and saw a big, permanent drop in mortality rates and mass outbreaks of anything among either population.

This tells me that the prophylactic treatments the captive bred fish receive aren't necessarily better than a healthy fish, they just produce different resistances.

(I'm sure the treatments are necessary in their process, and I know you were answering the question of whether treatments would render fish unable to procreate.)

Diet itself has a lot to do with this difference in resistance too.

 

[mcarroll]

For those freaked out by the concept of a bare bottom, rockless QT you can do passive observation in a Mini-Me of your DT. :D A smaller frag tank usually works nicely. Just have an empty tank on standby in case the fish breaks out with disease.

+1

This should be the norm, not the bare-bottom rockless setup. :) :) :)

 

[eatbreakfast]

Also, one of the links posted in the flurry above indicated that in an experiment, fish kept isolated/sterile can still pick up immunity components from tank mates. (I wish I were fluent in immunity jargon....I know I used no correct terms in that statement...but the links above said it right. ;) )

Mostly for what it's worth.

Also FWIW, I will (re)state that at the store I worked at, we noticed distinct differences in immunity between captive-bred (predominantly ORA stock) and wild fish.

As part of our QT we ended up keeping the two populations isolated from one another and saw a big, permanent drop in mortality rates and mass outbreaks of anything among either population.

This tells me that the prophylactic treatments the captive bred fish receive aren't necessarily better than a healthy fish, they just produce different resistances.

(I'm sure the treatments are necessary in their process, and I know you were answering the question of whether treatments would render fish unable to procreate.)

Diet itself has a lot to do with this difference in resistance too.

That's a huge jump in logic regarding the reason why captive bred fish are less resilient than wild caught and basing it off of prophylactic treatment. The captive bred fish are less hardy simply because they aren't culled nearly as rigorously as 'mother nature'. Spawns of fish are in the tens of thousands per spawn. Of these one to a few actually survive to adulthood. Much more make it to adulthood in captive raised conditions. You will also notice more physical deformities in captive raised fish, this is not a function of immunity, but just less strict culling. Weaker fish make it through captive raised conditions, so they will have a higher mortality when confronted with pathogens regardless of immunity.