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Other studies have been done by flushing water through the fishes tank to remove parasites and others have used TTM. If our goal at home is to create immune fish in a reliable manner, how do we keep parasite numbers down low enough for the fish to survive during the process without completely eradicating the parasite? Is this even possible with Brook or Uronema? Is it important for those 2? No idea....
@MnFish1
Directly from seachem... 14 days...
https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...osing-Treatment-Instructions?mobile_site=true
Yeah kind of like everything else in this hobby some people successfully keep acropora with a dkh of 10+ others around 7.5-8.Yes - I agree - I said only that if 14 days does not work - they have found increasing the duration (in those very rare strains and those strains are becoming more prevalent - whether that means they will change their recommendations on their bottle or not - is their decision - and not discussed) can be helpful. They (as you may have already found) have found that increasing the dose has become necessary of late. They (on their bottle) say to treat at .5 ppm - which is well above their 'minimal therapeutic dose (.2) and below their toxic dose (.8).
The point was your method differs from others here - its not a criticism or who is right or wrong - its an explanation of perhaps why so few people percentage wise do it (properly). IE - one person uses one method - and it doesn't work - and then they say 'QT doesnt work'.
PS - I didn't realize you used Seachems product? (I wonder if there is a difference between products)?
The problem is(was) - is that its possible that you didnt need to treat at a higher dose (i.e. if you had continued at 1.75 for another week it might have been fine).Yeah kind of like everything else in this hobby some people successfully keep acropora with a dkh of 10+ others around 7.5-8.
I have never had any issues erradicating parasites on fish longer than 14 days. However I have had to retreat at a higher concentration for 14 days. Was it resistance, human error, a unicorn.... Who knows!???
I have never had any issues erradicating parasites on fish longer than 14 days. However I have had to retreat at a higher concentration for 14 days. Was it resistance, human error, a unicorn.... Who knows!???
IMO In a way - it is. Because we have treatment methods to control and manage them and the immune system will be active but need to be activated now and when - we have not that for the human diseases you mentioned. However - google sickle cell anaemia and malaria, or cowpox and smallpox. Malaria was very common in Sweden before but are since 1930 considered extinct as a native disease. But we have still the same mosquitos. and we can still get it in our nature again through people getting malaria in othe part of the world. We are of the traveling sort. But because that malaria has disapaer - we have mist the genes for sickle cells anaemia - we will have no imune people still left here. Further - with vaccination of (strengthen the immune system) it possible to extinct a disease among humans as we have done with small-pots. But now we had stopped the vaccination program among civilians all around the world and what will happen if the supposed military reserves of the virus will be used (of some reason – some troops still get the vaccine). From the beginning smallpox hit the youngsters because the ones that survive was immune (at least for 30 years) Now – if it will hit us again – all will be very sick and probably die. To do the same vaccination program among all fish of the world (against any of the diseases you mentioned) is impossible. Therefore, you always have the risk to get the parasite into your aquarium in one or another way. A small population will help you to have your fish immune system up and working.
From an evolutionary standpoint - you're right (thalassemia and malaria as well btw) - and the carrier state of many recessive genes is thought to have an evolutionary advantage. In a tank, though IF you can eradicate all of the parasites (key word is IF) - and you can be certain you aren't going to accidentally introduce them again - there is nothing 'wrong' with that.IMO In a way - it is. Because we have treatment methods to control and manage them and the immune system will be active but need to be activated now and when - we have not that for the human diseases you mentioned. However - google sickle cell anaemia and malaria, or cowpox and smallpox. Malaria was very common in Sweden before but are since 1930 considered extinct as a native disease. But we have still the same mosquitos. and we can still get it in our nature again through people getting malaria in othe part of the world. We are of the traveling sort. Further - with vaccination of (strengthen the immune system) it possible to extinct a disease among humans as we have done with small-pots. But now we had stopped the vaccination program among civilians all around the world and what will happen if the supposed military reserves of the virus will be used (of some reason – some troops still get the vaccine). From the beginning smallpox hit the youngsters because the ones that survive was immune (at least for 30 years) Now – if it will hit us again – all will be very sick and probably die. To do the same vaccination program among all fish of the world (against any of the diseases you mentioned) is impossible. Therefore, you always have the risk to get the parasite into your aquarium in one or another way. A small population will help you to have your fish immune system up and working.
Sincerely Lasse
except without that one woman scientist that had seizures.....This thread reads like
The Andromeda Strain
don’t think it’s fair to bash the disease forum team for offering advice on treating sick fish. There are many fish that have survived because of the advice we offer, too.
So, when someone is successful in parasite-management in their tank, they haven’t found an alternative “cure”... just a way to help their fish tolerate the existing parasites. So, saying QT/medicating is the only way to get rid of parasites isn’t really a stretch.
I agree, on all accounts LOL!I think it was one of the more 'resistant strains'. I dont think its human error - you're too anal..... And the comment being - if those strains are becoming (anecdotally from Seachem) more of a problem for whatever reason - either a dose or duration change might be in order.
I see two issues with this. First is that stress can rapidly break down a fishes immune system. It can also recover quickly, but since some fish do better adjust to captivity than others, something should be done to aid it imo. The 2nd issue is that tank raised fish are becoming more common. Having never been exposed to these parasites in the sea, we need some way to get them to adjust to a more natural, pathogen filled environment.Fish from the sea all have adaptive immunity. If they don't, they are dead fish as nothing can live in the sea without immunity. Even if another fish sneezed on them, they would croak.
Don't feel bad. At least I didn't think you came across that negatively. This is a very controversial topic. I have a great appreciation for the work that is being done to further our knowledge of treating fish. There will likely always be a need to know how to treat fish using medications.Now i fell horrible. I am shunned by the reefsquad and i have insulted a good portion of some most knowledgeable and giving people. I myself in my short time have turned to you guys in times I doubted myself or if someone else could use the help.
Especially @ngoodermuth and @Frtdrmrose7 . If there is an emergency you guys are always there. When I read, and re-read your posts to learn there is always a tone of let’s help and see what we can do. You guided @Mjrenz thru 50 years of fish keeping in one thread, and did it successfully, and something to be celebrated.
I agree with this, when it comes to Ich and Velvet anyway. The actual exposure to copper to kill the freshly hatched parasite is measured in seconds, not hours. Certainly not weeks. If the concentration is high enough, 10 days is more than enough and 14 days provides a 35% margin. Most of the variables in timing of the lifecycle have no impact while on the fish.I have never had any issues erradicating parasites on fish longer than 14 days. However I have had to retreat at a higher concentration for 14 days. Was it resistance, human error, a unicorn.... Who knows!???
Agree. Definitely nothing wrong with whatever method works for an individual. I am hard-headed and set in my ways, I don't have anything wrong with others who do the opposite! To each is their own!I see two issues with this. First is that stress can rapidly break down a fishes immune system. It can also recover quickly, but since some fish do better adjust to captivity than others, something should be done to aid it imo. The 2nd issue is that tank raised fish are becoming more common. Having never been exposed to these parasites in the sea, we need some way to get them to adjust to a more natural, pathogen filled environment.I was going to disagree with this since fish can loose their adaptive immunity in 6 months after last contact with a parasite, but it looks like others beat me to it. I'm slacking today.
Don't feel bad. At least I didn't think you came across that negatively. This is a very controversial topic. I have a great appreciation for the work that is being done to further our knowledge of treating fish. There will likely always be a need to know how to treat fish using medications.
I will also say that I have gotten to know Hotrocks and 4fordfamily fairly well and they are absolutely passionate about what they do. They wouldn't be as good at it as they are they weren't. They are also fantastic people who want nothing more than to help people help their fish. They have thick skin and won't hold a grudge with someone they disagree with. Well... maybe Hotrocks will... but he sniffs tar for a living... you'll be just fine and won't be shunned. And trust me, there are plenty within the reef squad that don't treat prophylactically. One of the goals with the Reef Squad is to have a wide representation on how things are done. We don't want everyone who does things the same way.
You've been more than hospitable following along and helping me out, we've all said things we regret and I'm sure there's going to be room for forgiveness from anybody that took offenseSee, this is why I don’t do long posts or get riled up. ;Sorry
Now i fell horrible. I am shunned by the reefsquad and i have insulted a good portion of some most knowledgeable and giving people. I myself in my short time have turned to you guys in times I doubted myself or if someone else could use the help.
Especially @ngoodermuth and @Frtdrmrose7 . If there is an emergency you guys are always there. When I read, and re-read your posts to learn there is always a tone of let’s help and see what we can do. You guided @Mjrenz thru 50 years of fish keeping in one thread, and did it successfully, and something to be celebrated.
I agree with this, but (and I’ll keep it short). Why must there be a “cure”? If there is a parasite in the tank, (except velvet and brook) it is in the tank.People call it management. I think a better term is a balancing the ecosystem we have. Replicate nature. We can’t manage ich expect QT, we can manage the fish by providing them the same tools as what they would get in the wild.
To sum up, this is getting into the long area I stay away from. So sorry to all, I do not like being controversial. The whole point I was going for was spurred on not by any illness thread but someone in the new section being schooled on QT.
Ps. Please don’t take away my hospitality badge
To me this is a sign of a healthy, normal tank.
I think parasites will have no problem swimming in, around and under an undergravel, but I am guessing.
Fish from the sea all have adaptive immunity. If they don't, they are dead fish as nothing can live in the sea without immunity. Even if another fish sneezed on them, they would croak.
I do, but we were talking about a new tank with dry rock as many people have to start their tanks with. Live rock is of course best as is real sea water and an old, experienced, preferably good looking aquarist, but we all don't have that.