A lot of led fixture question

[mtraylor]

I have to disagree with you , I own 3 hydra 26hd now and I have checked them with my par meter . At the bot of my current tank I get around 120 mid tank 280 and top of rock 650 . My current tank is 24” deep and the light are 12” of the top of the water , so you saying there a poor choice is not accurate. I have had a set of the G3pros with them first came out and I didn’t like them at all went back to halides . I think the hydra is a better light and very happy with my choice.

My intent was not to say that the lights are bad in any way, but they are however a poor choice to try and compare to a 250MH. They will not provide a spread and or PAR that of a 250MH. That's it. YOu can not put 3 of those fixtures over top of a 72" long aquarium and expect them to perform like a 250watt MH. That's what I"m saying. They are good lights, just a poor choice in the context in which they were referred too. Hope that helps and Im not trying to insult the lights what so ever. I actually like them for certain applications.

 

[me & my baby]

You also can not compare one G4pro to a 250 either but you can still get great results with both

 

[Daltrey]

There is a reason it’s the best selling.

 

[oreo54]

My intent was not to say that the lights are bad in any way, but they are however a poor choice to try and compare to a 250MH. They will not provide a spread and or PAR that of a 250MH. That's it. YOu can not put 3 of those fixtures over top of a 72" long aquarium and expect them to perform like a 250watt MH.

Naaahh ..not buying it..
270W of LEd produces as many or more targeted photons than a 250W Mh................
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/jb/index.php

The quantum sensor (a sensor used to measure PAR) was placed 8" below the center of the arc tube. I chose 8" because this seemed to be a common distance that people keep their MH lamps from the water's surface.

See 12" here and compare..

250W MH @ 8"...............

 

[mtraylor]

"Naaahh ..not buying it..
270W of LEd produces as many or more targeted photons than a 250W Mh................"

So you are saying that you would actual need 9 Hydra 26 Fixtures over a 72" aquarium instead of 6?
3-90watt = 270Watt's to only one 25oMH??????

Or are you saying that one 90watt fixture gives more light than 1-250w MH????

The title is talking about having 3-250Watt MH's over a 72" aquarium for reference with Hydra 26 LED's.

 

[oreo54]

Or are you saying that one 90watt fixture gives more light than 1-250w MH????

The title is talking about having 3-250Watt MH's over a 72" aquarium for reference with Hydra 26 LED's.

Actually from the above data that is exactly what I'm saying..But depends on the MH/ballast
Take the Yushio above:
420PAR @ 8"..
ONE Hydra 26 at 12" averages around 400-500PAR..if I got the colors right..
4" is a BIG difference..

you do the math..
Iwasaki is 610PAr (approx" at EIGHT inches..)
At 12" probably be pretty equal.

curent CREE diodes are in the 140L/watt range.. MH are pretty stuck at 100L/ w
Then factor in efficiency of delivery..

If it wasn't for the above data I would have "assumed" a 2: 1 ratio..
125W LED = 250W MH...Apparently I was off..

 

[jda]

You have to take Oreo from where he is coming from... he does most of his actual reefing on the internet and loves to read and post links. AFAIK, nobody has every seen anything more than this.

He also forgets (or chooses not to indicate) that PAR meter do not capture all of the spectrums that provide value, even though he has been on lots of posts that lay this out very clearly. Lumen meters also measure a smaller subset of visible light than a PAR meter... and if you actually take the output from a good MH bulb from 350nm to 850nm and force it onto the same scale, they are over 200L/w. It is almost like he is paid to post this stuff and leave out why a Lumen meter is no good at measuring output from light types with a wide range of necessary output.

If you put that same Ushio on a small, focused reflector with a 6"x6" output pattern, the PAR would be over 1500 at 12 inches without have to spread it... IceCap used to make pendants like this where they bulbs were mounted vertically and they were VERY powerful and were made to get massive output at depths of 36", or more, with a small area. We tested one of these once with a ReeFlux 14K and were amazed at the output coming out of a 6" MH reflector. These would have a pretty similar spread to a Hydra 26... roughly.

You cannot take data from a peak point of one light source and compare it to the same output number produced over a much larger area and claim that the output is the same.

The post above just uses the Hydra numbers under a very small peak area instead of a much wider area more like 16x16 inches under different light sources, so very misleading, but not inaccurate if you forget about the nuance. It is so skillfully done, it is almost like the posts are intended to deceive.

 

[oreo54]

40B's are 18x 36 surface area... The data for the Hydra clearly defines an 18x18 area .
fight facts all you want w "specific" cases but the numbers don't lie.. and there are no "magic photons" AFAICT..

There are reasons to pick one light type over another but PAR is not one of them...................

If you put that same Ushio on a small, focused reflector with a 6"x6" output pattern, the PAR would be over 1500 at 12 inches without have to spread it

Feel free to post the raw data...
And what good (except in the center) does a 12x 12 pattern do for a 18" area..

This was a generalist discussion and I think that the PAR output of one Hydra can exceed the PAR of many MH "configurations"...
Matter of fact using a Hyra eliminated almost all the variables you yourself bring up..
Reflector choice/efficiency.. Ballast choice and match ect..

that you don't like my "numbers" is not my problem..

http://www.personal.psu.edu/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps3.htm

Conclusion

In this article we presented the spectral analysis of 250-watt metal halide lamps used in the hobby. The data presented in this article are intended to provide a better understanding of the light output of the lamps commonly used in the reef hobby. We do hope this data will help you make more informed decisions when choosing which lamp is best for your reef.

All measured at 18" w/ a Li-Cor.. Enjoy.. THE BEST was 129PAR at 18"...
W/out your miracle reflectors though..
your making the facts personal for no good reason...

BTW:
https://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27...lumination-led-light-par-14k-250-watt-halide/

2010............

 

[jda]

that you don't like my "numbers" is not my problem..

I would love to see some of YOUR numbers. Get a tank with a good sampling of coral, get a wide breath and depth of lights and come up with something like a lot of the rest of us have. Nothing that you post are "facts" (it is data, not facts) when you compare them when you leave out all of the nuance... you cherry pick one thing from one place and something else from another. You lack the experience to know what you are talking about and to apply any of these numbers the way that they were meant... anybody who think that a Hydra 26 can handle an entire 18x18 area as good as a Metal Halide is just a internet reefer, not a real one. Perhaps you indeed have the ability and just choose not to. In any case, nearly everything that you post is misleading because to turn data into information, nuance is needed and you leave all of this out. Data is useless in every case but one... to turn it into information.

You cannot ignore output that a PAR meter does not capture just because what you like does not have output in that range. Lumens per watt is dangerous and incompetence in this hobby. PAR is better, but still misleading. Radiated watts in the 350-800nm range is good, and there is data on this, but LED guys choose to ignore these.

I have asked you this probably a few dozen times, but do you have any actual experience with any of this, or are you indeed just a internet reefer? Show us anything?

 

[oreo54]

(it is data, not facts)

That's funny....

used lumens as a proxy for power.. no more no less...NEVER said to "use" lumens..

anybody who think that a Hydra 26 can handle an entire 18x18 area as good as a Metal Halide

Really??? sorry never used either and suspect you didn't as well.. well both.
so why did you switch out the Ai's??

If you never used BOTH of them for any length of time then, by your logic, you really have nothing to say.. Right???

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2589363

 

[CNDReef]

So let me get this straight, if you put 3 ai 26 on a 6 foot tank and run a par meter across the sand bed of it from one side to the other you’ll have over 100 par across the whole sand bed or does it drop significantly every 2 feet?

 

[Daltrey]

I say forget which lights are the best.

At least we can all agree on the Ford truck.

 

[oreo54]

So let me get this straight, if you put 3 ai 26 on a 6 foot tank and run a par meter across the sand bed of it from one side to the other you’ll have over 100 par across the whole sand bed or does it drop significantly every 2 feet?

 

[jda]

I have just used a Hydra52 and currently have a whole houseful of 250W Halides. The Hydra 52 could not do the job, so I am assuming that the 26 cannot either. Yes, I have used them. I usually mention when I have not used something since nuance matters. The reason that I try stuff out and pay attention is because if any tech became a clear winner, then I would buy them in a heartbeat and no cost would matter. You do not know when stuff gets relevant if you do not get some (I do used so that I can resell quickly for no loss) and test them out for yourself. A few pieces of equipment like an Apogee 510 are a bargain when you are into this for the long haul.

Not that any of this matters, but a 2002 F250 here with 350K+ miles and only ever had to replace a single coil pack other than tires, plugs and fluids. It drives like is has 20K miles on it. It is amazing that Ford sells as many trucks as they do since they last so much longer than lots of the others - I see a lot of older generation Rams in our area too.

 

[oreo54]

I have just used a Hydra52 . The Hydra 52 could not do the job,

. Now tell us exactly what that means..What made you give up on it?

Lets be honest here, some "give up" on something for any number of reasons.. From loud fans, disco, growth, color, problems w/ programming, looks, shadows ect..

Saying "could not do the job" is pretty open ended...and doesn't really help anyone...

 

[CNDReef]

So the answer is at 18 inches it has 67 par on the outer edge. So a typical 24 inch tank couldn’t use these unless corals are high up. Thanks for the info

 

[oreo54]

Which fixture were you referring to?
What corals.
He states one "normal" AI prime (45W) is probably good enough for anything but an SPS 24" cube tank..
Not what I would say but defer to the experts here..

LET me make this perfectly clear, don't care which light/tech you choose..but one needs to gather as many facts AND "inferences" to make their own choices..

 

[Daltrey]

Here is a pic of my best-selling Ford truck.

 

[xabo]

The reason I had to switch from 3 400W MH to LEDs

 

[xabo]

Another angle