A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[brandon429]

OK thank you.

For the record I believe you :)

This isn't a thread for fifty year seasoned aquaculturists as the target audience, you can forgive our over simplified process. It's more of an address to what a typical cycler will encounter as they scour the web for best cycling practices

And even if we search out today's links on cycling, pretty much none detail skip cycling or visual ID of ready surfaces.

So, I'd like to request permission from the permission granters to make a thread around this conveniently missing linkable subject.


We're in fact creating such a link here, right now. Thankful to rtr staff for breathing some energy back to this thread. Skip cycling is old old jedi science and the origin scrolls are missing/ understood.

We'll fill in the gaps with examples of new builds and continue our patterning.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Lasse

what would be positive, helpful a change from prior behaviors:

Focus on objective things that few can argue with, when posting here, so that my thread isn't re-harmed.

Simple question for you to ponder. No need to respond.

You are not "posting objective things that few can argue with". You jumped right back into posting absolutes and rules. Do you understand why people then respond with questions and opposing views or information? Nobody wants to see your thread locked, but at the same time people are not going to stand by and allow what they feel is misinformation, be propagated.

I honestly don't what to see your thread locked either.

In hopes of doing you a favor, I will actually step away for the rest of the day and allow you to process why you find yourself back where you left off.

 

[brandon429]

please come back with only helpful direct links for the subject matter, when you do come back. your analysis here on my faults are 100% read, and complete

you've stated the final statement on priors for sure.

 

[brandon429]

we begin new now

 

[Troylee]

This is not new cycling science - its old as the stones in the streets. Starting a new tank using already cycling water, already cycling sand, already cycled rocks and frags from a cycled aquarium. I have done the same technique in bots fresh and saltwater since the beginning of the seventies. Is not a skipped cycle because all used things has already been cycled.

Sincerely Lasse

Hahahahaha! I know it’s not new.. but I won’t say any names… someone says it’s a skip cycle and claims it to be new science. I call it a water change myself. I haven’t cycled a tank in over 20 years and yet I always start a new tank or upgrade etc etc..

 

[Aquadude1]

Hey Brandon, I'm new to this thread. I am slightly confused by the term skip cycle.
What is meant by that?

I worked at an lfs for years and the general advice that many employees gave was "buy ammonia nitrite and nitrate test kits, then watch for ammonia and nitrite to fall and nitrate to rise."
Is the purpose of this thread to help beginners see that this method is overcomplicated and can be simplified by looking at easier to see ques?

 

[brandon429]

Aquadude

Thank you for that

That's so on topic yes. What you captioned is the limitation of today's training.


Please have dialog with us here so that your customers get the most updated cycling science in reefing. What you said is true: most only associate bottle bac and ammonia with cycling

Knowing that, I made the title exclude bottle bac :)


Your post is the prime, prime, example of sincerity and true friendliness this forum needs, this thread needs, badly.

If you have ANY customer asking you about skip cycling or tank transferring without harm (all part of the same concept we're detailing here) just feel free to hit me up here and you'll get the info that protects the customers reef per the jobs done.

Thank you for that post. If everyone was simply that kind this thread would never be closed. Your question validates this threads existence among cycling giants apparently

:)

Owe you one.

B

 

[brandon429]

In your shop there is rock ready to carry a full reef built as soon as it's transported home. It isn't accurate to sell cycling bottle bac as a requisition purchase along with live rock. I've seen that buying link happen lots of times, many of our examples are titled that way.

This type of cycle is: carry the rocks home and set up the reef and test nothing: it'll be cycled. That's what we're proving here.

If you inform buyers that both live rock and bottle bac dry rock cycles can quickly handle their new fish purchases safely, but disease expression is the real risk to their fish (how you cycle doesn't impact disease express rates) you're giving customers the most accurate info in reefing

And then you can sell them the supports they need in an accurate way where even anonymous forum hacks couldn't imply you misled anyone.


*most owners of pet stores know the inside secret on skip cycling, buyers not so much. Pet store owners would go broke if they personally thought bottle bac is required for all cycles, every shipment received of live rock would eat into their bottle bac costs

Customers enjoy the peace of mind from having a little extra 'support' bacteria. By excluding bottle bac here totally, we're testing the claim bottle bac isn't helpful at all during live rock transfers. Excluding it lends perfect results for as many years as we want to test.

What your customers need peace of mind over, and a little extra support for, is that cryptocarion outbreak coming by June.

 

[Aquadude1]

I changed careers recently, but I definitely agree that when some people don't understand cycles they can overcomplicate it for beginners. (Not referring to anyone on this forum)

So would you advice to stay away from bacteria even in dry rock dry sand reefs?
Or would you avoid starting with everything dry all together?

 

[brandon429]

Bottle bacteria is designed for and great for skip cycling in dry setups. I call for it there, just not for live rock systems so that buyers can begin to form their own shopping habits based on searchable science.

Here is a day one skip cycle testless reef using bottle bac and dry rocks. Anemone, coral and fish on day one

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bio-spira-works-great.668674/
What became the challenge after the first year? (Disease onset, no degree of cycle prep can stop that, specific preps are required to stop it)

Reasons why your customers may legit want to know how to skip cycle:

- aquascape change outs
- emergency tank break help_red sea owners
- setting up new tank around expensive corals they somehow ordered first/ done that here prior
- they want to move their reef to a new city or home

Simply buying bottle bac cannot make all those moves safe. Actual surfaces handling science is needed... that's us

 

[Aquadude1]

I fully agree with this. The way i personally recommend to customers cycling dry tanks, was to use some bottled bacteria and add some hearty fish same day.

The only times I commonly saw fish die from ammonia was in freshwater tanks where no plants or bacteria were used and fish were added immediately.

I never saw cycles just stop. Cycling should be one of the easiest things to do in the hobby imo.

 

[brandon429]

hey can u show us by pic, where in your store is the skip cycle live rock

lift one up out of the water and photo it up close, w be cool to see the benthic cycling cues new here.

benthic clue quicksummary:

when coralline, real coralline and algae and living attachments are on live rock by rule all that came after basic ability to control ammonia from aquariums (bacteria deposited first). at no time can coralline, algae, attachments form on uncycled rock unless trick antibiotics are in play, and that's not something we're going to see.

rather simple concept, but I've been asking for example links for 5 years here to see that rule written before us/still waiting. it's the prime thing we do here, assess readiness by those visuals.

 

[Aquadude1]

hey can u show us by pic, where in your store is the skip cycle live rock

lift one up out of the water and photo it up close, w be cool to see the benthic cycling cues new here.

Sorry, I don't work there any more but our live rock was in a big Rubbermaid tub, that we would add ammonia to occasionally.

When customers bought the live rock we never had an issue of loosing fish to ammonia toxicity though.

 

[brandon429]

that is exactly how my lfs had it. I built my reef 19 years ago from this exact stock, took a pic of it at the time. *for effect, I carried it home in my trunk sitting in a pile, not in wet newspaper. extended airtime ability is also something we review here :) so it was fun to start off my cycle using an extreme stress test, and it's still running nineteen years later. my skip cycle sure held.

the hidden truth: not only is pet store live rock with biomarkers true skip cycle, but it can stay out of water a long, long time and still be skip cycle when resubmerged. the old rules said it would die off, and uncycle, i can find that being stated. my reef is routinely drained fully during cleanings and all corals/rocks are in the air for half an hour or more at times.

knowing the boundaries, testing the boundaries for live rock cycles is good science, fun science.

 

[Aquadude1]

Absolutely! People often worried about the bacteria dying on the car ride home. We never had a problem with it.

K.I.S.S really does help when cycling.

 

[MnFish1]

I changed careers recently, but I definitely agree that when some people don't understand cycles they can overcomplicate it for beginners. (Not referring to anyone on this forum)

So would you advice to stay away from bacteria even in dry rock dry sand reefs?
Or would you avoid starting with everything dry all together?

I'm curious - and asking this because you're an expert - being an LFS owner and have (I assume) helped many people start tanks -

IF you started a tank with dry sand, dry rock but added lets say Fritz 9000 - which on the bottle states you can add fish on day 1 would you recommend this method without testing?

If you started a tank with Live rock lets say a 90 gallon tank - with a peppermint angel and multiple other fish on day 1, would you be comfortable using 'observation' for ammonia toxicity in the fish? How would you know the number of fish to add?

Do you think there is a difference between people saying 'I started a new tank using the same filtration, fish, and live rock as in my old tank' (which would presumably not cause a problem) and starting people posting a thread stating 'I started a new tank with Old live rock and new fish including xxx, yyy, zzz' - would you recommend 'observation' for both, one or neither tank?

Again - we're talking about 'beginners' - not long-standing reefers. if you wouldn't use observation, what would you recommend. Sorry to put you on the spot - but I'm assuming you have the best knowledge to answer the questions again - since you have helped multiple people start tanks. Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

hey can u show us by pic, where in your store is the skip cycle live rock

lift one up out of the water and photo it up close, w be cool to see the benthic cycling cues new here.

benthic clue quicksummary:

when coralline, real coralline and algae and living attachments are on live rock by rule all that came after basic ability to control ammonia from aquariums (bacteria deposited first). at no time can coralline, algae, attachments form on uncycled rock unless trick antibiotics are in play, and that's not something we're going to see.

rather simple concept, but I've been asking for example links for 5 years here to see that rule written before us/still waiting. it's the prime thing we do here, assess readiness by those visuals.

The issue is bioload vs what the capability of the rock to break down ammonia.

 

[Aquadude1]

I'm curious - and asking this because you're an expert - being an LFS owner and have (I assume) helped many people start tanks -

IF you started a tank with dry sand, dry rock but added lets say Fritz 9000 - which on the bottle states you can add fish on day 1 would you recommend this method without testing?

If you started a tank with Live rock lets say a 90 gallon tank - with a peppermint angel and multiple other fish on day 1, would you be comfortable using 'observation' for ammonia toxicity in the fish? How would you know the number of fish to add?

Do you think there is a difference between people saying 'I started a new tank using the same filtration, fish, and live rock as in my old tank' (which would presumably not cause a problem) and starting people posting a thread stating 'I started a new tank with Old live rock and new fish including xxx, yyy, zzz' - would you recommend 'observation' for both, one or neither tank?

Again - we're talking about 'beginners' - not long-standing reefers. if you wouldn't use observation, what would you recommend. Sorry to put you on the spot - but I'm assuming you have the best knowledge to answer the questions again - since you have helped multiple people start tanks. Thanks!

I'm sorry if my response sounded arrogant or it sounded like I was calling myself an expert.

I was a manager. I didn't own one.

I personally would not test. But I would start with hearty cheaper fish in case something happened so the customer would not be as upset (never lost a clownfish or similar fish because of this)

On the example of the peppermint angel. I would not attempt it in a tank without diverse established microfauna.

On the issue of multiple fish and all dry with bottled bacteria, i would start small. I have seen the results of not doing this.

On the issue of dry start vs starting with established rock, I would not suggest buying an ammonia kit for either. I have not found it necessary.

The only time I would use an ammonia test kit, is for qt systems. I am not opposed to them though.

 

[brandon429]

qt systems are the only time I'd use an ammonia kit too, and it wouldn't be an api or red sea guess-at-the-color kits either. go digital or be left in doubt is how I see it.

seachem badges are decent for non digital work. not free from probs, but freer than api that's for sure.

Your tone was always perfect here, it's why I thanked you and didn't leave you any doubt you'd written well compared to recent histories here, before you came to set the convo right. thanks again.

 

[Aquadude1]

I have also seen that what sometimes happens on a dry start with bottled bacteria when someone adds too many fish, the ammonia doesn't kill the fish directly, but the lack of oxygen from a large bacterial bloom does.