Abyzz a400 tripping GFI

[MGarrison]

Hello,
I am a little disappointed with Abyzz right now. I am setting up my 224 gallon setup and had a new dedicated circuit ran for the tank with 2 GFI receptacles behind the tank. When I finally got water into the system and turned on the Abyzz pump it would almost immediately trip the GFI on either receptacle. I opened a ticket with Coralvue and they contacted Abyzz. This was the response that I received:

"I got an email from Abyzz about your issue. I was told that the GFIs we use here in the US are sensitive, so using a European GFI or no GFI for your pump is the way to go. I was assured that this issue should not be a security fault in the device and not using a GFI has worked out. "

I have no idea what a "European GFI" is! So now my options are run an extension cord across the room to the nearest standard outlet or replace one of the GFI receptacle with a standard. Because the receptacle is behind the stand would it be "safe" to run a standard receptacle? I could also move the control box to the basement where the sump is, but I purchased the 10m model so I could have the control box under my tank with the rest of the electronics.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

 

[Gablami]

Can you still return it?

that’s really frustrating. I have a similar problem with a red dragon pump, but I bought it used and fiddled with the controller. It trips my gfci outlet but does NOT trip when I use my gfci circuit breaker on a non gfci outlet. This suggests that it’s a low level leak. I don’t know what to do with the pump.

maybe our resident electrician @Brew12 can help?

 

[MGarrison]

Doubt I can return it. Already glued the metric to US spacers on it and currently running it to cycle the tank. Besides I don't really know what I would replace it with. Running a basement sump with ~15 feet of head not including plumbing. Abyzz is the only DC pump that I found that would handle this.

 

[Millwright]

Interesting find after a quick google search.
- In the USA GFCI is rated to trip from 4 to 6 mA. However, in Europe, it's rated at 10 mA and it's called RCBO.
- Our standards people have determined that there is significant additional risk to human health at levels above 6mA, the Europeans feel differently. And by the way, they allow up to 30mA as "safe from electrocution".
From what I have read 30 mA can kill you but it’s safe for machinery.
Personally I’d return it glued or not.

 

[Gablami]

you could buy replacement parts for those collars, and return. You could try a different gfci outlet brand. You could try to have a regular outlet backed up by a gfci circuit breaker. I am not a fan of running it entirely on a non-gfci outlet.

 

[SoggyNW]

I'm an electrician and I can't think of any gfci product that would solve your problem. You could try a different brand of gfci, some have quirks that might be causing a trip. You could also try adding a battery backup in-between the gfci and the pump.

I personally would return warranty return the pump. Doesn't matter that you have glued anything to it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. You paid enough to expect perfect function.

From a safety standpoint you need to have a water bond in the tank somewhere. You could run the pump without the gfci and place a water bond in the return chamber near the pump. That configuration would provide adequate protection.

 

[MGarrison]

I'm an electrician and I can't think of any gfci product that would solve your problem. You could try a different brand of gfci, some have quirks that might be causing a trip. You could also try adding a battery backup in-between the gfci and the pump.

I personally would return warranty return the pump. Doesn't matter that you have glued anything to it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. You paid enough to expect perfect function.

From a safety standpoint you need to have a water bond in the tank somewhere. You could run the pump without the gfci and place a water bond in the return chamber near the pump. That configuration would provide adequate protection.

Sorry, I don't understand water bond. The pump is running externally.

 

[Gablami]

Is a water bond like a grounding probe?

 

[MGarrison]

you could buy replacement parts for those collars, and return. You could try a different gfci outlet brand. You could try to have a regular outlet backed up by a gfci circuit breaker. I am not a fan of running it entirely on a non-gfci outlet.

If replacing the breaker with a GFCI breaker, Would I need to change the receptacles to standard?

 

[KStatefan]

If replacing the breaker with a GFCI breaker, Would I need to change the receptacles to standard?

Yes.

 

[SoggyNW]

Sorry, I don't understand water bond. The pump is running externally.

Yes sorry, ground probe is a water bond.

 

[MGarrison]

Yes sorry, ground probe is a water bond.

So your recommendation is:
A) Run the pump on a standard outlet and put a ground probe in the sump.
B) Return the pump and find something else. Which I don't think there is an equivalent replacement for my situation.

If I do option A I will put the pump in the basement where I can plug it into an outlet that will not have any potential exposure to water.

 

[Gablami]

If replacing the breaker with a GFCI breaker, Would I need to change the receptacles to standard?

You don’t need to change all the receptacles on that breaker to standard, just the one the abyzz is on. The remaining outlets can remain gfci, backed up by a gfci breaker.

 

[Brew12]

"I got an email from Abyzz about your issue. I was told that the GFIs we use here in the US are sensitive, so using a European GFI or no GFI for your pump is the way to go. I was assured that this issue should not be a security fault in the device and not using a GFI has worked out. "

maybe our resident electrician @Brew12 can help?

Thanks for the call out!

Interesting find after a quick google search.
- In the USA GFCI is rated to trip from 4 to 6 mA. However, in Europe, it's rated at 10 mA and it's called RCBO.
- Our standards people have determined that there is significant additional risk to human health at levels above 6mA, the Europeans feel differently. And by the way, they allow up to 30mA as "safe from electrocution".
From what I have read 30 mA can kill you but it’s safe for machinery.
Personally I’d return it glued or not.

Another common name is an RCD (residual current device).
Just a side note... comparing the amount of current needed to cause injury or death will be different at 50hz than it is at 60hz. For instance, 50hz is less likely to cause heart arrhythmia than 60 hz. That is one reason RCD's have higher allowed trips than GFCI's.


As for the original question.... The Abyzz pumps are great, congrats on the purchase! These are larger pumps on a more industrial controller and when they generate some fairly significant harmonics. Some GFCI's, especially older ones, can be very sensitive to these harmonics and trip. The European GFCI's don't cause them problems because of the higher trip level of the RCD's and, since they are 220V receptacles, they generate fewer harmonics.

My recommendations would be these. If the GFCI receptacle you are plugging it into is more than 2 or 3 years old, I would try and replace it with a new one. Newer GFCI's have better filters to get rid of harmonics than the older GFCI's and that might solve the problem.

If it is tripping new GFCI's I would still keep and operate the pump with a few precautions. First is that I would use a ground probe in the sump near the pump suction or I would use 3 prong titanium heaters since they will act as a ground probe. I also would try not to touch the pump, especially near any metal parts or any potential cracks in the housing without unplugging it.
If you take these two precautions you should be able to safely use the pump imo, since it is plumbed externally.

 

[BlennyTime]

You may want to be careful chaining GFCI elements together, they can cause each other to fault sometimes. And it makes it more complicated to figure out where the fault is and reset it if something trips. Not a safety issue, just an annoyance.

 

[MGarrison]

Thanks Brew12!
It is a brand new GFCI receptacles. I already have 2 600watt BRS Titanium heaters in the sump.

The issue is I cannot plug the abyzz pump into the GFCI behind the pump. Do I swap that for a regular receptacle? Or do I move the pump control to the basement and plug into a regular receptacle there? I would assume I would want the receptacles behind the tank to be GFCI since there is a splash risk there? Or as mentioned replace the breaker with GFCI breaker and then I could potentially change the receptacles behind to tank to standard.

And if a GFCI receptacle is sensitive wouldn't a GFCI breaker be just as sensitive or are there one's rated higher?

 

[BlennyTime]

Thanks Brew12!
It is a brand new GFCI receptacles. I already have 2 600watt BRS Titanium heaters in the sump.

The issue is I cannot plug the abyzz pump into the GFCI behind the pump. Do I swap that for a regular receptacle? Or do I move the pump control to the basement and plug into a regular receptacle there? I would assume I would want the receptacles behind the tank to be GFCI since there is a splash risk there? Or as mentioned replace the breaker with GFCI breaker and then I could potentially change the receptacles behind to tank to standard.

And if a GFCI receptacle is sensitive wouldn't a GFCI breaker be just as sensitive or are there one's rated higher?

I wouldn’t plug anything aquarium-related into a non-GFCI outlet, would be a shock hazard. Adding a GFCI breaker or swapping outlets may work, but ultimately the reason it’s tripping may be for your safety so you would have to weigh that with what you try.

 

[Brew12]

Thanks Brew12!
It is a brand new GFCI receptacles. I already have 2 600watt BRS Titanium heaters in the sump.

The issue is I cannot plug the abyzz pump into the GFCI behind the pump. Do I swap that for a regular receptacle? Or do I move the pump control to the basement and plug into a regular receptacle there? I would assume I would want the receptacles behind the tank to be GFCI since there is a splash risk there? Or as mentioned replace the breaker with GFCI breaker and then I could potentially change the receptacles behind to tank to standard.

And if a GFCI receptacle is sensitive wouldn't a GFCI breaker be just as sensitive or are there one's rated higher?

That is a tough question. My experience is that GFCI breakers are less sensitive to false trips than the receptacles are but I can't say for sure that it wouldn't trip. The only way to know for sure is to try it.

GFCI's aren't very effective at protecting against splashes on them. When they trip they only remove some of the power on the outlet, it's still possible for the salt water to short out a tripped GFCI. They are only designed to protect you from the loads plugged into them, not the outlets themselves.

I'm not sure I have a good enough feel for what your options are to make a solid recommendation.

I wouldn’t plug anything aquarium-related into a non-GFCI outlet, would be a shock hazard. Adding a GFCI breaker or swapping outlets may work, but ultimately the reason it’s tripping may be for your safety so you would have to weigh that with what you try.

I agree with you in that this is the best case scenario. And it is possible that there is an issue with the pump and/or controller but I think it is unlikely. The Abyzz pumps have a little bit of a reputation for tripping GFCI's in the states.
Trying a breaker would be ideal but there are other ways to mitigate the risk. With his BRS titanium heaters in the sump he is creating what linemen call equipotential bonding. Even if a fault in the pump occurs in the water, the heaters will work to clamp voltage down to a safe level. It can draw a large amount of current during a fault, which is why a GFCI is much preferred, but it should keep him safe.
It's much harder to provide protection for the outside of the pump. If the housing cracks or shorts to a metal screw, you can be shocked. That is why I would unplug the pump prior to touching it if you can't avoid any metal parts as well as doing a very thorough visual inspection of where you will be touching it.

 

[GoVols]

Hello,
I am a little disappointed with Abyzz right now. I am setting up my 224 gallon setup and had a new dedicated circuit ran for the tank with 2 GFI receptacles behind the tank. When I finally got water into the system and turned on the Abyzz pump it would almost immediately trip the GFI on either receptacle. I opened a ticket with Coralvue and they contacted Abyzz. This was the response that I received:

"I got an email from Abyzz about your issue. I was told that the GFIs we use here in the US are sensitive, so using a European GFI or no GFI for your pump is the way to go. I was assured that this issue should not be a security fault in the device and not using a GFI has worked out. "

I have no idea what a "European GFI" is! So now my options are run an extension cord across the room to the nearest standard outlet or replace one of the GFI receptacle with a standard. Because the receptacle is behind the stand would it be "safe" to run a standard receptacle? I could also move the control box to the basement where the sump is, but I purchased the 10m model so I could have the control box under my tank with the rest of the electronics.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Sorry for your issues.

I push the A100 and they used to trip breakers too, but Abyzz came out with a USA version before I bought mine.

They are as good as you can get and just push at 57% to my old pump at 100% that is rated the same gph. Dead silent.

I'd sure hope that CoralVue would go to bat for you.

 

[MGarrison]

That is a tough question. My experience is that GFCI breakers are less sensitive to false trips than the receptacles are but I can't say for sure that it wouldn't trip. The only way to know for sure is to try it.

GFCI's aren't very effective at protecting against splashes on them. When they trip they only remove some of the power on the outlet, it's still possible for the salt water to short out a tripped GFCI. They are only designed to protect you from the loads plugged into them, not the outlets themselves.

I'm not sure I have a good enough feel for what your options are to make a solid recommendation.


I agree with you in that this is the best case scenario. And it is possible that there is an issue with the pump and/or controller but I think it is unlikely. The Abyzz pumps have a little bit of a reputation for tripping GFCI's in the states.
Trying a breaker would be ideal but there are other ways to mitigate the risk. With his BRS titanium heaters in the sump he is creating what linemen call equipotential bonding. Even if a fault in the pump occurs in the water, the heaters will work to clamp voltage down to a safe level. It can draw a large amount of current during a fault, which is why a GFCI is much preferred, but it should keep him safe.
It's much harder to provide protection for the outside of the pump. If the housing cracks or shorts to a metal screw, you can be shocked. That is why I would unplug the pump prior to touching it if you can't avoid any metal parts as well as doing a very thorough visual inspection of where you will be touching it.

Thanks again Brew12. I have move the pump control to the basement on a regular outlet and There is no metal near the pump other than the housing bolts.

Sorry for your issues.

I push the A100 and they used to trip breakers too, but Abyzz came out with a USA version before I bought mine.

They are as good as you can get and just push at 57% to my old pump at 100% that is rated the same gph. Dead silent.

I'd sure hope that CoralVue would go to bat for you.

Don't get me wrong it's a GREAT pump. Running mine @ 80% and you can't hear it. Changed over to a bean overflow and the Abyzz pump on this build from a panworld 100x-x and durso on my old 120 gallon and the wife was so happy how quiet everything is. Just wish if they are going to market in the US that they would have made adjustments so it would work with GFCI or at least put a warning in the description of the potential issue.