Accidentally started a mini cycle cleaning sandbed
- Thread starter b4tn
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nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
Super happy to hear that a crisis was avoided b4tn! This is a topic that everyone will have a different opinion on, but the point that nobody will refute is that sandbeds become, in effect, garbage dumps. The best way to avoid a garbage dump sandbed is not to have one frankly. BB tanks are without a doubt the cleanest in terms of organics and inorganics being filtered out through the various sump methodologies we employ (filters, skimmers, resin exchange, media boxes, canisters, biopellets, GFO, GAC, could keep going, etc.) and other non filtering methods (vodka, vinegar, chemical additives - yuck, could keep going, etc). Reason why is simple: there is no place for the crap to build, it just gets moved to the sump in a BB tank.
However, I like the aesthetics of a sandbed, so I have them, but actively keep them clean. Even for giant tanks, it isn't difficult to stir the sandbed up, especially right before a WC; get all of the detritus up and out, into the water column where it can be removed physically and replaced with fresh water. Doing a 100% complete WC works, though it may be completely and totally impractical not to mention inconvenient.
Back on topic, it's a simple idea: keep the tank alive for an indefinite period of time by stirring up the sandbed. Perfect example is Paul B, with a 44 year old tank, because he uses a reverse undergravel filter. Smart idea, he doesn't have to clean the sandbed, water is always rising up through it and pushing the detritus and partially chemically converted detritus into the water column where it can be processed further biochemically, then removed through methods above. Sandbeds that are untreated and untouched are a literal time bomb. This exact thread is where the thought process for the hobby needs to diverge from the old methods where we have the concept that "nothing good happens fast". Sandbed cleaning and upkeep is an area where a lot of good happens, through staying active in the process of keeping a sandbed viable as a method of biological and chemical filtration for an indefinite period of time. Most if not all of the amazing veteran reefers here have just made keeping a clean sandbed (or no sandbed at all) a part of their routine/husbandry. These vets don't even think about it anymore, because they know the value in doing it and conversely know the consequences of not keeping up with it.
I actually think that the idea of a reverse UG filter should be rethought with regards to sandbeds, especially with the automation that the industry has seen with controllers, etc. The reverse UG filter is it's own automatic controller, constantly keeping the bottom of the tank clean. Paul was doing that with an automatic, hands off analog control solution before we thought about digitally controlling our systems.
There is no doubt that a sandbed must be cleaned, filtered, stirred, moved, suctioned, etc. etc. etc., or else that system will crash with a 100% guarantee. Planning how we aquascape shouldn't simply consist of what kind of rock we like, where we want to put it, what we want it to look like, Golden Ratio for a visually stunning tank, and so on. That part is easy but leaves out one of the most important concepts in aquascaping: how to keep the nice looking set up from turning into an algae filled, rotting cesspool disaster. There are some cool solutions that I've seen people use to address this when planning their scapes. If anyone is that interested, let me know and I'll add some links to this thread.
Great thread!! I really like everyone's ideas and questioning what works. I'm following for sure and hoping that the super smart people come and chime in.... [HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG] to the rescue!! :cool:
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Breakthecycle2
2500 Club Member
If it's still high and really any ammonia is high, try some Prime.
brandon429
what, exactly, are you doing in your avatar
That's part of the ongoing debate, whether they fix the problem of waste, or contribute to it by eating and making whole waste pellets.
The pro side of the consideration says their movements and foraging in the sand keeps detritus physically kicked up and thereby removed by the filter, or cast into the water to stick somewhere else, degrade in the water, and then be up taken by plants or exported as compounds in skimming.
Many assume they actually eat detritus and excrete no waste
The con side of the argument says all sandbed fauna is just like the corals we keep, the fish, the live rock....they are among the pets we pay to observe and consider. They are diversity, and they have a compounded effect for the system in terms of waste collection such that if they weren't there, the sandbed would need less export. What they do for the ecosystems in the vast dilution and distribution of the natural ocean isn't the same as a crowded tank where fish bioload per gallon is a million times accelerated. Getting these two contending sides to agree is so hard, multi page threads develop :)
The pro side of the consideration says their movements and foraging in the sand keeps detritus physically kicked up and thereby removed by the filter, or cast into the water to stick somewhere else, degrade in the water, and then be up taken by plants or exported as compounds in skimming.
Many assume they actually eat detritus and excrete no waste
The con side of the argument says all sandbed fauna is just like the corals we keep, the fish, the live rock....they are among the pets we pay to observe and consider. They are diversity, and they have a compounded effect for the system in terms of waste collection such that if they weren't there, the sandbed would need less export. What they do for the ecosystems in the vast dilution and distribution of the natural ocean isn't the same as a crowded tank where fish bioload per gallon is a million times accelerated. Getting these two contending sides to agree is so hard, multi page threads develop :)
brandon429
what, exactly, are you doing in your avatar
One interesting way to see starfish and gobies and live sand bugs/worms waste impact is to just keep a bunch of them in a clear bucket of water, or examine their shipping bags after a glide across the pacific to our house
Is there any waste pellets and detritus waste, or did they eat it all and keep the container clean?
Is there any waste pellets and detritus waste, or did they eat it all and keep the container clean?
nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
:confused:Yep scoobyfish, to a degree. Dragon goby, diamond goby, orange spotted goby, and to a lesser degree, shrimp goby, are all fish that will keep your sand as white and clean as a Corona Light commercial. In fact, they may clean so well that your sandbed can lose their bacterial populations. Other burrowing animals are going to leave their own biological mark, however. A good CUC always helps but in the long term, active husbandry is required to sustain life; I'm talking past the three to five year mark here.
You will also need to be active when you have an outbreak (bryopsis, etc) that your generalized CUC and the more targeted or specialized livestock can't handle.
So those animals and inverts are like your teenagers; great to help around the house when supervised but when ignored, you'll come home to a house full of beer cans. :confused:
You have to actively manage the tank, or force the tank to function the way you want it to function. Best solutions are built in to the system design, of which sand sifters, burrowers, detrivores, crabs, snails, are just a piece. Think auto water changes (not ATO), that could coincide with a powerhead sandstorm occurring 5 minutes before. Or do that manually (how I do it). Think rockscaping designed to allow really good flow through the entire structure to clean out pieces of foods that would otherwise sink into sandbed. Lots more ideas out there and some super smart people going DIY on the ideas. It is waste management 101 on a tank level, stuff that all environmental engineers took coursework on: flow dynamics from which we have overflow systems with weirs and high turnover rates, waste hierarchy from prevention to disposal, integrated systems thinking, could go on but for brevity's sake I'll stop. Lloyd's $0.02
You will also need to be active when you have an outbreak (bryopsis, etc) that your generalized CUC and the more targeted or specialized livestock can't handle.
So those animals and inverts are like your teenagers; great to help around the house when supervised but when ignored, you'll come home to a house full of beer cans. :confused:
You have to actively manage the tank, or force the tank to function the way you want it to function. Best solutions are built in to the system design, of which sand sifters, burrowers, detrivores, crabs, snails, are just a piece. Think auto water changes (not ATO), that could coincide with a powerhead sandstorm occurring 5 minutes before. Or do that manually (how I do it). Think rockscaping designed to allow really good flow through the entire structure to clean out pieces of foods that would otherwise sink into sandbed. Lots more ideas out there and some super smart people going DIY on the ideas. It is waste management 101 on a tank level, stuff that all environmental engineers took coursework on: flow dynamics from which we have overflow systems with weirs and high turnover rates, waste hierarchy from prevention to disposal, integrated systems thinking, could go on but for brevity's sake I'll stop. Lloyd's $0.02
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http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/rs/feature/index.php
Ron Shimek phd
Randy Farley Advanced aquarist
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
Robert Toonen, Ph.D., Christopher Wee
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/rs/feature/index.php
Ron Shimek phd
Randy Farley Advanced aquarist
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
Robert Toonen, Ph.D., Christopher Wee
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
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brandon429
what, exactly, are you doing in your avatar
I have my take after reading and its application here, but curious to see others
Enjoy his work greatly. Not long ago Dr Shimek was a mod at the marine depot forums and could be reached for live chat as one of the early online marine science authors we could still consult
What is the relationship between the OPs sandbed and mini cycle to that article in your opinion am curious
If anyone reading with a sandbed over five years old can scoop out a handful and look at what's in it, do you have cross sections that look like the marine references in the article? You have that diversity inside a reef tank not located in main office of IPSF? :)
pics
Enjoy his work greatly. Not long ago Dr Shimek was a mod at the marine depot forums and could be reached for live chat as one of the early online marine science authors we could still consult
What is the relationship between the OPs sandbed and mini cycle to that article in your opinion am curious
If anyone reading with a sandbed over five years old can scoop out a handful and look at what's in it, do you have cross sections that look like the marine references in the article? You have that diversity inside a reef tank not located in main office of IPSF? :)
pics
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brandon429
what, exactly, are you doing in your avatar
I'm liking those links too so far and their summaries.
What is your take on how they relate to the OPs original mini cycle? How can we apply that knowledge to avoid mini cycles, to me that's heart of the matter. Tying a reference into a corrective or sustaining action for the OPs tank should be the end result of formal links, what does he do to better prepare for the future?
What is your take on how they relate to the OPs original mini cycle? How can we apply that knowledge to avoid mini cycles, to me that's heart of the matter. Tying a reference into a corrective or sustaining action for the OPs tank should be the end result of formal links, what does he do to better prepare for the future?
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There are many choices and many techniques. Understanding the science behind them is paramount. A small amoumt of knowledge of the natural process and maintenance involved would save many many headaches.
A healthy sandbed can be easily maintained. In this instance is was not. The articles posted will help insure a clean healthy sand bed.
Garfs method and Pauls method fly in the face of "popular" aquarium methodology. And I love that. But it works on the same principals.
The popular beriln method with sandbed is easiest for most. But there is a LOT of misconception about how to go about it.
Brandon your methodology is fearless and more people should adopt it. (and clean and maintain it like you, I actually do)But its time consuming for most.
Pauls method should be adopted more but it sells less product.
Garfs technique is not pretty picture perfect and doesnt sell.
So finding healthy balanced solutions for the common problems encountered like the OP's seemed appropriate.
And B you know I hate it being called a mini cycle. A mini cycle only happens in a mini tank.
Stirring up crap from a dirty sandbed and overloading the bio filter and feeding "nuisance" algae and bacteria is just that.
I too would like to see pictures of a cross section of a mature deep sandbed. I imagine they keep those in books. :D
The aim of argument and of discussion, should not be victory, but progress."Joseph Joubert
brandon429
what, exactly, are you doing in your avatar
You and FLT need to come down and we go out on a semi reliable boat, get some cold crappie fishing going, spot some hogs with drones, not do much about it when we see them, and make a camp fire or something. Thats how my weekend is about to go down even if y'all don't show up
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nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
My take is that to maintain a healthy, self-sustaining sand bed is to mimic one: start with Linopherus and Nassarius on the surface, along with pods, worms, brittle stars, flatworms, moving into the sub surface stage (given one has a bed deep enough to get anoxic), polychaete worms, protozoan who eat cyano and algae, and of course the bad guys, cyano and algae. In essence, that is completely unrealistic for hobbyists. In order to obtain the life that dwells in that cross section of the substrate of a DSB, well, most aquarists would do what we do and just keep the sand bed clean.
Literally the easiest and best answer for almost all but the most dedicated and educated of DSB keepers is to commit to a husbandry technique that works for them. That could range from sparkling white sand to less cared for with some algae mats to only keeping the very top few grain layers vacuumed.
To answer your question Brandon, what the OP can do based on those links is to understand that algae is more a part of the tank than the corals are, then "create" the balance that he wants. I.e., when he sees too much growth of certain algaes, go aggressive on them and get them out so when they die they won't release all of the substances tied up in the foods they grew from.... My $0.02
Literally the easiest and best answer for almost all but the most dedicated and educated of DSB keepers is to commit to a husbandry technique that works for them. That could range from sparkling white sand to less cared for with some algae mats to only keeping the very top few grain layers vacuumed.
To answer your question Brandon, what the OP can do based on those links is to understand that algae is more a part of the tank than the corals are, then "create" the balance that he wants. I.e., when he sees too much growth of certain algaes, go aggressive on them and get them out so when they die they won't release all of the substances tied up in the foods they grew from.... My $0.02
nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
I'm there man. Used to live in Austin. D@-n hogs everywhere! The only thing you left out is cooking some chili out of cans on the fire. I'll bring my drone!
I miss Alpine. Teralingua was weird as hell I miss it all.
nervousmonkey
LPS Lover, SPS Enabler
Alpine is a cool city. Loved going to Marfa and checking out the biodiversity of the Trans-Pecos. Off topic now though... Not many DSB's in West Texas
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