Algea from Florida in a reef

[GARRIGA]

@GARRIGA
The post on using activated carbon addressed cleaning up water after seaweed went sexual.

I don’t see ozone preventing sexual events with seaweed. Please explain how ozone helps.

I have used seaweed in my reef tanks for many years and have seen a dozen seaweed survival events. Different seaweeds respond differrently: red grapes lose flotation balls, some fast growing Caulerpa show white instead on growth tips. I have had both Caulerpa Parvispora & Caulerpa Prolifera go sexual during lights out with no obvious indicators.

Once, in a different system with lights on, Caulerpa Parvispora oozed a white substance from cylindrical stems that had doubled in diameter. I removed that runner and immediately dosed 20ml of ammonia into a 55G tank.

Ozone not to prevent but to act as carbon would post going sexual. I'm going to be using it for other reasons and expect it would oxidize the affects of going sexual as well.

I'm speaking of seaweed found in the Atlantic off our beaches in south Florida. I do not know of there being various species therefore are red grapes a type of seaweed in these waters or a type of caulerpa attached to rocks. Not a salt plant guy and haven't had caulerpa since the mid 90s where I failed getting it to attach to my rocks and best I can recall might have withered away or disposed of.

 

[Subsea]

“Ozone not to prevent but to act as carbon would post going sexual. I'm going to be using it for other reasons and expect it would oxidize the affects of going sexual as well.”

@GARRIGA
I can’t follow the logic of this.

As seaweed disintegrates, it consumes oxygen and breaks down into DOC and inorganic nutrients. How does ozone reduce these components in the water?

 

[GARRIGA]

“Ozone not to prevent but to act as carbon would post going sexual. I'm going to be using it for other reasons and expect it would oxidize the affects of going sexual as well.”

@GARRIGA
I can’t follow the logic of this.

As seaweed disintegrates, it consumes oxygen and breaks down into DOC and inorganic nutrients. How does ozone reduce these components in the water?

Ozone oxidizes organics. Are you seeking knowledge on how ozone works or not convinced it will correct the affects of decomposing seaweed?

All decomposition consumes oxygen therefore not my main concern. Focus is what causes going sexual and early detection so appropriate measures taken. System will have adequate filtration to handle decomposition and carbon dosing can be provided to handle the nitrates and phosphates produced. Surface agitation can resolve oxygen depletion.

Perhaps let's not focus on ozone and consider how can I maintain seaweed. Just another life form once understood that should be sustainable. Assuming it fixes my ph problem then it's a consideration. Organics can be handled by other means but seaweed will also reduce that dependency, too.

 

[Subsea]

@GARRIGA
I know how ozone works. It will not help with waste from seaweed going sexual.

If you need more info on seaweed in reef tanks than study this free guide from live plants.

Marine Plants In The Aquarium: An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

www.marineplantbook.com

PS: I don’t see carbon dosing complimenting a seaweed lagoon. Carbon dosing grows bacteria that are removed with protein skimmer, thus nutrient export. However, elevated bacteria levels do not encourage seaweed growth and in some cases create problems with bacteria films choking seaweed.

 

[GARRIGA]

@GARRIGA
I know how ozone works. It will not help with waste from seaweed going sexual.

If you need more info on seaweed in reef tanks than study this free guide from live plants.

Marine Plants In The Aquarium: An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

www.marineplantbook.com

PS: I don’t see carbon dosing complimenting a seaweed lagoon. Carbon dosing grows bacteria that are removed with protein skimmer, thus nutrient export. However, elevated bacteria levels do not encourage seaweed growth and in some cases create problems with bacteria films choking algae.

Not carbon dosing with seaweed. Just stating that would be deployed should there be a seaweed die off and my filtration needs to handle it. Not concerned with nitrification but would need to supplement denitrification.

I don't use protein skimmers. Haven't since the 90s. Been carbon dosing past year without it and no issues. Not sure where this idea that protein skimmers export bacteria came from. Might feed the corals but then don't see it floating in my system and question that concept, as well. Lots in the hobby based of conjecture of what we think is happening and then becomes cemented in stone. Sometimes best look outside the box and test it because what we discover might challenge our prior beliefs.

As for the ozone. Why wouldn't it offset going sexual if it's putting ammonia and other components of decomposition into the water. The ozone should oxidize parts of that and supplement filtration. Only reason to deploy ozone for me would be to oxidize organics which also leads to clear water.

 

[Subsea]

“Perhaps let's not focus on ozone and consider how can I maintain seaweed. Just another life form once understood that should be sustainable. Assuming it fixes my ph problem then it's a consideration. Organics can be handled by other means but seaweed will also reduce that dependency, too.”

@GARRIGA
Seaweed does not consume organics. Seaweed consumes inorganic nutrients.

Protein skimmers remove bacteria. Ozone does not remove bacteria, it kills bacteria. Ozone can not oxidize inorganic nutrients in the water.

SEAWATER Blog: Protein skimmers in closed circuit systems

In our blog post we explain how effective water treatment works with a protein skimmer and the advantages of using it.

seawatercubes.de

Effective water treatment in aquaculture cannot do without the work of bacteria, because in specially built biofilters they often convert toxic excrements of the fish into animal and environmentally friendly substances. Examples are the processes of nitrification and denitrification. However, if bacteria are present in larger numbers in the bearing tank, they can cause undesirable side effects such as deterioration of water quality or the occurrence of diseases. Therefore, in closed recirculation systems, mechanical purification stages such as the skimmer are used in addition to biological filters.

“The protein skimmer uses mechanical and biochemical processes to render the bacteria harmless and remove them from the water circuit.”

 

[Subsea]

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.

reefs.com

Ken Felderma, pHd research scientist, articles on carbon dosing & protein skimmers break down on what’s in the skimmate. His data supports bacteria in skimmate.

 

[Dan_P]

My dad just got back from florida with around 5-6 lbs of Gracilia Marco algea. If I quarantine this stuff and only use a small piece is it ok to use in my reef tanks and to pass along to friends? I’ve never taken anything from the ocean before.

Safe in what way? Do you have any specific concerns?

 

[GARRIGA]

“Perhaps let's not focus on ozone and consider how can I maintain seaweed. Just another life form once understood that should be sustainable. Assuming it fixes my ph problem then it's a consideration. Organics can be handled by other means but seaweed will also reduce that dependency, too.”

@GARRIGA
Seaweed does not consume organics. Seaweed consumes inorganic nutrients.

Protein skimmers remove bacteria. Ozone does not remove bacteria, it kills bacteria. Ozone can not oxidize inorganic nutrients in the water.

SEAWATER Blog: Protein skimmers in closed circuit systems

In our blog post we explain how effective water treatment works with a protein skimmer and the advantages of using it.

seawatercubes.de

Effective water treatment in aquaculture cannot do without the work of bacteria, because in specially built biofilters they often convert toxic excrements of the fish into animal and environmentally friendly substances. Examples are the processes of nitrification and denitrification. However, if bacteria are present in larger numbers in the bearing tank, they can cause undesirable side effects such as deterioration of water quality or the occurrence of diseases. Therefore, in closed recirculation systems, mechanical purification stages such as the skimmer are used in addition to biological filters.

“The protein skimmer uses mechanical and biochemical processes to render the bacteria harmless and remove them from the water circuit.”

My use of the term organics being the decomposition process. I'm not being literal to what seaweed consume. Just as I'm not being literal to what decaying seaweed contributes other than ozone can assist with the decomposition process from that event. My understanding of ozone.

As for nitrification. Not looking for an education on that. Been there. Done that. Started in the early 70s. Considering it's bee naround since post cyano then I doubt much has changed.

As for the skimmer and bacteria. Don't know. Don't care. Don't use it. See it as nothing more than a glorified mechanical filter that needs constant attention and smells like raw untreated fish sewage. Same with socks. My method since the 70s has been to allow a large biological filter to capture and decompose. Carbon dosing providing a solution to the final hurdle and ozone might resolve the issue of WCs where there might be items we can't test and dilution being the only solution. Perhaps ozone resolves most of that since it has cleared up the remnants of chemical warfare between corals. Purely anecdotal yet much of this hobby is. Hence my logic behind using ozone should seaweed go sexual and I wasn't able to identify and remedy soon enough. Fact is, large enough biological filter and one can survive most mishaps. Something not provided for when protein skimming and dry porous rock the only means of solving decomposition. Why I never migrated to the Berlin Method although transhipper I wholesaled at did. Just didn't make sense to me and seemed like a craze to avoid so called nitrate factories that wet dry were yet reminded me of the clinical method utilized in the 60s which went against everything i believed in. Think it was called the natural aquarium or such with an Asian man sitting next to tank with rocks and corals and might have has an air stone. nothing fancy. Just nature doing it's thing.

Only unknown that remains is identifying exactly what causes going sexual and early identification because no sense stressing the system if can be avoided.

Reading the attachment you provided but yet to find those answers other than what has already been provided being depletion of nutrients under the influence of strong lighting. Both solvable. Plus how I feed there will likely not be a depletion of nutrients. Love seeing my begging fish satisfied. It is what it is.

Goal is mostly to remove CO2 because air tight house when fully occupied has too much of that and I've exhausted all remedies other than an air handler which with my hot climate would likely not be pragmatic. Cost of cooling that incoming air would be astronomical. Implementation is around five grand. That's a lot of inhabitamts that would buy. Why I'm back to considering a refugium which I've studied since learning about algal turf scrubbers in the 80s and worse case I might just go chaeto as it is readily available but often times hard to source. At least that not loaded with pests. If I'm going to have QT then might as well do it with seaweed which also comes with free shrimp and other life forms. Amazing what falls out of a handful.

After further consideration, having a caulerpa tank might be nice as separate system but don't think it fits my need to solve my problem and pragmatic at the same time. Easier to float seaweed or allow chaeto to suspend. Seaweed still preferred because it's an idea I've had since the 80s and one of those itches I should just scratch but knowing as much about it as possible always for me the best approach. Not necessarily what or how I should do something as I can figure that out but what is it that causes it to do or behave in a certain manner.

Just providing some insight because often times it is assumed that one asking might need more help than just what is being asked and although we can all learn from repeated information it might become boring to some readers to be coursed on certain basics such a how biological performs. Honestly, outside of nitrates returning 100% of alkalinity removed during nitrification (thought it was 50%) I can't recall learning anything new in the last 40 plus years in regard to biological processes. Pretty much got plants figured out as to their biology although still not sure if seaweed obtains CO2 from water or atmosphere or both. That's critical to grasping how I deploy it to handle my main need for it. Well versed in ozone and why I haven't used it but seems I might have now learned a way being we have controllers. Old days you checked ORP but that was manual best I recall. Carbon removes the side affects of ozone. What exactly those are is an unknown to me other than I need to account for them in the air if using a skimmer or water for both skimmer and reactor. Going reactor since I don't believe in skimmers. Just my thing.

Therefore, excluding all other things I've mentioned and just focusing on what matters most and can't seem to gleem elsewhewre (still reading your provided literature) and as it pertains only to seaweed we find on our south Florida beaches, would their going sexual be recognizable by their flotation degrading? Any color changes? Do they extract CO2 from water. What can you share on that I wouldn't get from the literature since I've scoured the net and either my search skills are lacking or that I seek does not exist. Honestly, have never heard of another proposing seaweed for filtration and mostly what I find is articles on fighting the influx on our beaches because of pollution and climate change. Some of that being useful yet most of it either goes over my head or ignored because it doesn't solve for my only concern. CO2 removal from seawater. Considering it often floats out at sea where nutrients are low and CO2 likely too it would be logical to assume that it can extract from both water and sea which could solve two issues for me. CO2 introduction along with removal. Enclosed canopy with positive air flow an idea I've had to reduce how much CO2 introduced along with an air pump connected to a CO2 scrubber injecting bubbles as would be via a skimmer except no foam to collect. I'm always thinking. Never know when an idea works.

 

[Subsea]

Why does carbon dioxide do that is a problem in your systems?

I consider CO2 as a nutrient that grows everything. Fresh water planted tanks inject carbon dioxide to grow plants. In the oceans, co2 dissolves in water to form carbonates which during photosynthesis produce glucose which is carbon.

 

[GARRIGA]

Why is carbon dioxide a problem in your systems?

I consider CO2 as a nutrient that grows everything. Fresh water planted tanks inject carbon dioxide to grow plants. In the oceans, co2 dissolves in water to form carbonates which during photosynthesis produce glucose which is carbon.

Air tight south Florida home overly occupied causing my ph to drop to 7.6. When half populated it's 8.1. No WC and carbon dosing keeps alkalinity stable therefore no option to use kalk to raise it. Tried it and shot my ph to 7.8 but alkalinity went from a stable 9 to 13 within two days.

Refugium the last resort. Can't even grow coralline because I'm assuming ph too low. It's a test tank but need this figured out before the main display is built as how I incorporate or not incorporate a refugium will impact it's design.

 

[Subsea]

Explain to me how carbon dosing keeps alkalinity stable.

Reef aquarium carbon dosing entails adding a carbon source like vinegar, sugar or vodka which fuels bacteria growth. Protein skimmers remove bacteria that reduce nutrients absorbed by bacteria. How does that contribute to stable alkalinity.

I suggest you read Ken Felderman articles on carbon dosing in Advanced Aquaria.

 

[Subsea]

Ozone not to prevent but to act as carbon would post going sexual. I'm going to be using it for other reasons and expect it would oxidize the affects of going sexual as well.

I'm speaking of seaweed found in the Atlantic off our beaches in south Florida. I do not know of there being various species therefore are red grapes a type of seaweed in these waters or a type of caulerpa attached to rocks. Not a salt plant guy and haven't had caulerpa since the mid 90s where I failed getting it to attach to my rocks and best I can recall might have withered away or disposed of.

Russ Kronwetter is diver owner of Live Plants. This guide may help you to understand seaweeds better.

Marine Plants In The Aquarium: An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

www.marineplantbook.com

 

[GARRIGA]

Explain to me how carbon dosing keeps alkalinity stable.

Reef aquarium carbon dosing entails adding a carbon source like vinegar, sugar or vodka which fuels bacteria growth. Protein skimmers remove bacteria that reduce nutrients absorbed by bacteria. How does that contribute to stable alkalinity.

I suggest you read Ken Felderman articles on carbon dosing in Advanced Aquaria.

My knowledge not based magazine articles. Based on science. Perhaps that article is based on that and not dismissing it but haven't read it nor desire to at this point. According to the science, nitrification removes alkalinity (how exactly I don't know and don't care but have known that since the 70s) and denitrification returns alkalinity (how again I don't care although that I learned last few years). Only thing I got wrong researching the science was reading somewhere that only 50% is returned but Randy educated me on that and provided a science based article he had written and my actual experience dosing NoPox without WC past year plus has confirmed that learned was correct. Denitrification returns 100% of the alkalinity removed during nitrification.

Having nothing else to strip the alkalinity (except for some snails which haven't made a dent) then my alkalinity remains stable and dose nothing other than periodically run some tests but those infrequent events were very minimal and little or no affect and if any was later corrected with an acid buffer as I'm doing now to correct my test with kalk. Something I haven't used since the 90s and quite frankly forgot how even used it then or how it mixed or the actual affects. Might be it didn't work and why i stopped using it.

Are you challenging my claim on alkalinity stability based purely on an article or actual experience? My claim as unbelievable as it might seem. Based mostly on actual experience. Backed by science and Randy, too. Don't know what else I can say but it is what is causing my inability to stabilize ph. One negative aspect of zero WC and carbon dosing. Why now back to testing a refugium. Pretty confident that will solve my concerns. Has in the past and science backs it. Just how I will implement still debatable and why I'm seeking solutions other than chaeto plus an itch I should scratch.

Found some topics on R2R discussing sargassum with mixed results. Usual for topics not of the norm being infrequently used and it seems as usual I'm going to have no choice but test it. How I often discover that said not that to be fact.

 

[GARRIGA]

Russ Kronwetter is diver owner of Live Plants. This guide may help you to understand seaweeds better.

Marine Plants In The Aquarium: An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

www.marineplantbook.com

Not looking for an education on plants. Well versed. Honestly.

Looking for specifics on sargassum found floating off the Atlantic and mostly how it photosynthesizes and exhales. Floating freshwater plants take CO2 from the atmosphere yet sargassum sinks at night and floats during the day which implies it can either do both or only captures CO2 from the atmosphere and oxygen underwater at night or can both inhale and exhale (figuratively speaking) both from the atmosphere and water. Knowing this helps designs how I implement or focus as it's use. Stripping CO2 from inside a canopy may help reduce CO2 load on my system in many ways. Might not.

You keep referencing that book and I can't find any of what I seek within it. They don't sell floating sargassum. Just rooted species.

 

[Subsea]

Normal photosynthesis decreases alkalinity, as bicarbonate alkalinity produces glucose which is incorporated in biomass of coral & plants. “Nutrient recycling” or sequestration.

I doubt that seaweeds absorb CO2 directly. CO2 dissolves in water to form carbonate & bicarbonate which are then converted into glucose as it grows. Alkalinity is depleted as it grows photosynthetic corals & algae.

 

[Subsea]

“Are you challenging my claim on alkalinity stability based purely on an article or actual experience? My claim as unbelievable as it might seem. Based mostly on actual experience. Backed by science and Randy, too. Don't know what else I can say but it is what is causing my inability to stabilize ph. One negative aspect of zero WC and carbon dosing. Why now back to testing a refugium. Pretty confident that will solve my concerns. Has in the past and science backs it. Just how I will implement still debatable and why I'm seeking solutions other than chaeto plus an itch I should scratch.”

@GARRIGA

After 51 year of Reefing experience and a marine engineering degree that researches the science, I don’t agree with your claims on alkalinity & carbon dosing. So I can better understand, explain to me how you “carbon dose“.

 

[GARRIGA]

Normal photosynthesis decreases alkalinity, as bicarbonate alkalinity produces glucose which is incorporated in biomass of coral & plants. “Nutrient recycling” or sequestration.

I doubt that seaweeds absorb CO2 directly. CO2 dissolves in water to form carbonate & bicarbonate which are then converted into glucose as it grows. Alkalinity is depleted as it grows photosynthetic corals & algae.

Seaweed would require CO2 to photosynthesis being my point.

 

[Subsea]

Let’s talk seaweed & coral chemistry with respect to waste products. DOC (dissolved organic carbon) exudates of coral is mostly lipids & proteins while exudates of seaweed are mostly carbohydrates or glucose.. Each source of DOC produce differrent bacteria that effect health of a reef. Activated carbon will remove some DOC from the water column.

I use cryptic sponges to absorb DOC. No water changes, no activated carbon.

Effects of reduced dissolved oxygen concentrations on physiology and fluorescence of hermatypic corals and benthic algae

While shifts from coral to seaweed dominance have become increasingly common on coral reefs and factors triggering these shifts successively identified, the primary mechanisms involved in coral-algae interactions remain unclear. Amongst various potential ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Subsea]

Seaweed would require CO2 to photosynthesis being my point.

Why do you feel you have too much co2? It true that night time swings reduce pH. However, a healthy reef at night in the wild has pH swings down to 7.7.

In a study on a declining IndoPacific reef, oxygen content proved to be much more important than pH.