Alk creeping with auto water changes

[conlan75]

If they are correct, then nitrate decline is not the issue.

Top off water is what?

Originally it was RO/DI, since I put in the ATO and DOS for auto-water changes, I switched it to use my pre-made salt mix.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally it was RO/DI, since I put in the ATO and DOS for auto-water changes, I switched it to use my pre-made salt mix.

But you are still adding RO/DI to replace evaporation?

 

[conlan75]

But you are still adding RO/DI to replace evaporation?

sorry - I should have been clearer about this. The RO/DI feed has a splitter on it - leg a goes into the mixing station. leg b goes to the solenoid that feeds the Apex ATO in the sump. The mixing station has a PMUP that runs through a separate solenoid into my trigger ATO tank. Which then has lines to the DOS. So if the SUMP ATO hits the low optical sensor, it does open the solenoid that tops off directly from the RO/DI. The monitor I have on that solenoid shows it hasn't been opened since I started doing the auto-water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

sorry - I should have been clearer about this. The RO/DI feed has a splitter on it - leg a goes into the mixing station. leg b goes to the solenoid that feeds the Apex ATO in the sump. The mixing station has a PMUP that runs through a separate solenoid into my trigger ATO tank. Which then has lines to the DOS. So if the SUMP ATO hits the low optical sensor, it does open the solenoid that tops off directly from the RO/DI. The monitor I have on that solenoid shows it hasn't been opened since I started doing the auto-water changes.

That sounds very problematic. My guess is that salinity is rising (how could it not be?) and that is raising everything, including alkalinity.

 

[conlan75]

That sounds very problematic. My guess is that salinity is rising (how could it not be?) and that is raising everything, including alkalinity.

believe it or not, salt is not fluctuating much.

I check with a refract once a week to make sure it's not wandering off on me. I've heard some stories about not trusting the apex salinity probe, so I operate on the measure twice principle. I'm feeling impatient for the phosphate test kit to arrive tomorrow, so I'm going to run by a local shop and borrow their test kit and see what that shows today. Everything else is within parameters. If Phosphate is high, I'll get a media reactor running GFO.

The one thing that I think I want to do is change up the rock. When I did this, the local store just loaded me up with rock, which I believe has created areas that waste can be accumulating since I can't siphon there and the flow within the tank might not be getting to it properly. Am I overthinking this?

You and Miami Reef have been very helpful, it's really appreciated!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not see how this can be true, unless your new salt water is much lower in salinity than the tank water.

if you evaporate 1-2% of the tank volume daily, and replace it with seawater with an alk of 8 dKH, the alk addition is the equivalent of 0.08 to 0.16 dKH per day.

Magnesium will be rising a whopping 13 to 26 ppm per day.

 

[Miami Reef]

Am I overthinking this?

A little bit. Your algae problem isn’t bad at all. You have diatoms which feed directly on silicates which is common in new tanks. Once they consume it, you won’t see them again unless you add tap water (silicates) into the tank.

Judging by your tank pictures, I’m going to guess that your phosphates are low.

A refractometer is only as good as the calibration that goes into it. If you are going to the LFS, ask them to check your salinity to triple check.

About the phosphates: I don’t think renting one would be helpful right now. I don’t believe phosphates correlate to your Alk issue. I don’t think your phosphates are casing your diatoms either.

 

[Miami Reef]

Here’s your steps: make sure your TDS from RODI is always reading 0. Anything higher will leach silicates which directly feed diatoms.

Double check your refractometer. Either go to LFS and ask them, or make a simple DIY 35ppt (1.026) solution to check and calibrate the refractometer.

Never top off tank water with saltwater. Only the freshwater evaporates from saltwater tanks. Adding more saltwater will cause a huge increase in salinity overtime.

 

[Miami Reef]

Here’s how to make the salinity 35ppt calibration:

1. Measure ¼ cup of Morton's Iodized Salt (about 73.1 g)
2. Add 1 teaspoon of salt (making about 79.3 g total salt)
3. Measure the full volume of a plastic 2-L Coke or Diet Coke bottle filled with purified freshwater (about 2104.4 g)
4. Dissolve the total salt (79.3 g) in the total water volume (2104 g) to make an approximately 3.65 weight percent solution of NaCl. The volume of this solution will be slightly larger than the Coke bottle, so dissolve it in another container.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/rhf/index.php

 

[conlan75]

I do not see how this can be true, unless your new salt water is much lower in salinity than the tank water.

if you evaporate 1-2% of the tank volume daily, and replace it with seawater with an alk of 8 dKH, the alk addition is the equivalent of 0.08 to 0.16 dKH per day.

Magnesium will be rising a whopping 13 to 26 ppm per day.

hmm - I wonder if that monitor on the solenoid isn't working then. I can tell you that I keep the mix identical to the tank and my magnesium is usually between 1220 and 1240. After I get my alk figured out, from what I've read I should try to get my mg up to around 1280. I'll check that monitor out and see if it is actually topping off at times with RO/DI and just not monitoring it correctly.

 

[conlan75]

Here’s your steps: make sure your TDS from RODI is always reading 0. Anything higher will leach silicates which directly feed diatoms.

Double check your refractometer. Either go to LFS and ask them, or make a simple DIY 35ppt (1.026) solution to check and calibrate the refractometer.

Never top off tank water with saltwater. Only the freshwater evaporates from saltwater tanks. Adding more saltwater will cause a huge increase in salinity overtime.

Thanks! TDS on one of my lines just hit 1 so I'll replace that media today. I'll get my refract checked when I go by. They weren't going to charge me to use the test kit I've dropped way too much there for that.

Appreciate the link and the directions on the calibration solution.

 

[conlan75]

FYI - Phosphates were not too bad at .4, I setup a GFO to have in place and run a couple hours a day. I tore through everything else that was setup, replaced the media in my RO/DI and as I was inspecting that setup, I found that the tech that installed it, had the membrane flush valve in flush mode. So now, I've gone through everything else looking for any other errors. I'm questioning everything and trying to learn more on the programming of the Apex too.

Alk is sub 11 now, calcium is on the rise and maybe that's a temp thing? I've read all the articles on GFO and Calcium increases.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The calcium rise may be a testing problem.

 

[conlan75]

The calcium rise may be a testing problem.

Meaning the tests are inaccurate? I’ve backed up the trident tests with my Red Sea test kit as well. I have what appears to be a calcium cloud that has come with the increase as well. Which is a bummer because day two after dropping the nutrient control dosing my tank was crystal clear.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Meaning the tests are inaccurate? I’ve backed up the trident tests with my Red Sea test kit as well. I have what appears to be a calcium cloud that has come with the increase as well. Which is a bummer because day two after dropping the nutrient control dosing my tank was crystal clear.

Yes, that's what I meant. That uptick at the end looks exactly like a trident test error, unless you added calcium during that time. That said, what is the time frame and amount of rise at the end? There's no scale on your graph.


A calcium cloud? What does that mean?

Water that is not clear may read false high in calcium and alkalinity if there is suspended calcium carbonate in the water.

 

[conlan75]

Yes, that's what I meant. That uptick at the end looks exactly like a trident test error, unless you added calcium during that time. That said, what is the time frame and amount of rise at the end? There's no scale on your graph.


A calcium cloud? What does that mean?

From 10am yesterday to the spike at 12:15 this am. I've seen other people write about this - when their calcium spiked though most I've read was from dosing with the wrong parameters and against other dosing that was taking place, created cloudy water - or they called it Calcium cloud.

Water that is not clear may read false high in calcium and alkalinity if there is suspended calcium carbonate in the water.

what would cause the suspended Calcium carbonate in the water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Too much flow stirring up sand can suspend calcium carbonate.

Calcium typically cannot rise on its own. It needs to be added somehow.

 

[Gary67]

alright - I'm stumped on this. Tank is 3 months old, PH is between 8.1-8.2, Salt is at 33, MG is 1240, Calcium is 480 and Alk keeps creeping from 11 into the 12's. It got as high as 14, with Ca and Mg relatively the same. If I do a 30% water change, Alk drops some, I was able to drop it from the 14 to 11 by doing day after day changes. I put in a DOS and setup auto water changes, started at 5gal a day, then with Alk creeping up, I bumped it to 20, still no slowing the alk creep. I switched from IO to Red Sea their blue bucket so alk tests at 8 in a fresh batch. Where as the IO was testing at 11dkh.

the only dosing I'm doing is for NO3O4-X.
It is a mixed tank - however everything is fairly new, I haven't lost anything yet, but really don't want to either.

Any thoughts or expert advice? My local store is stumped and I'd like to be able to take a work trip or two and not be thinking about water chemistry when I should be focused on customers tech.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you mean to post something?