Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

Pdash

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It is current the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish.

Since I have never seen anyone in the hobby actually provide experimental data on the sorts of pH and alkalinity issues that I am about to discuss, let’s back up and think through what these issues really mean and what they may imply for reefing.

Before going any further, let me pose a thought question:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2


As you might have guessed, if not actually calculated, those have identical variation in bicarbonate over the time period of interest.

Let’s start this discussion with some background on total alkalinity, and why we use such a weird, theoretical measurement. It is certainly not because it is the exact thing corals “care” about. Total alkalinity is the sum of a bunch of different things in the water, some of which are counted once (bicarbonate, silicate, hydrogen phosphate, borate, magnesium monohydroxide, hydroxide), some twice (phosphate and carbonate) and one (hydrogen ion) is subtracted back out to get the final answer. Certainly, it is mostly bicarbonate, and it is far easier to measure than is bicarbonate alone. So if we care about bicarbonate and cannot readily measure it, total alkalinity is a fall back measurement that may have value.

In fact, the reason we measure total alkalinity is because corals use bicarbonate (at least that is the current consensus in the scientific community) to gain the carbonate they need for formation of calcium carbonate skeletons (and potentially for the CO2 they need for photosynthesis as well). Let me just back up that assertion with a recent reference to justify the importance of bicarbonate. Using “current” references is important, as this very complex field has evolved a lot in the past 20 years (and still has a lot to learn).

Figure 1 in this paper from 2019 shows bicarbonate as the ion taken up from the bulk water:

Electrophysiological evidence for light-activated cation transport in calcifying corals https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2018.2444

However, the point I’m going to make about stability isn’t changed by whether corals take up bicarbonate or carbonate (or even CO2) as their source of dissolved inorganic carbon for photosynthesis.


The point that I will make is that NONE of these (bicarbonate, carbonate, or CO2) are kept stable with stable “total alkalinity”, if one ignores pH. If none of these are stable, how could stability of total alkalinity be important? Or, thought of a little differently, maybe it is only part of a larger “stability” issue that reefers have yet to really understand.

Let’s now delve into what it means for total alkalinity to be stable. What, if anything, is really stable about water with stable alkalinity if the pH is allowed to vary?

The table below shows the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate present as a function of pH, where the total alkalinity is held constant at 8 dKH (for ease of calculation, I’m ignoring all the other minor contributors to total alkalinity). I know my scientist friends will laugh at using dKH as a unit of measure of bicarbonate or carbonate, but I think it makes it easier for ordinary reefers to not get distracted by conversion into other units, such as meq/L.

Table 1. Bicarbonate and Carbonate as a function of pH in seawater with total alkalinity of 8 dKH. Bicarbonate delta is the percentage difference in bicarbonate for each 0.1 pH unit change.

pHHCO3- (dKH)CO3— (dKH)Bicarbonate Delta
7.60​
7.54​
0.28​
7.65​
7.52​
0.31​
1.80​
7.70​
7.49​
0.35​
2.00​
7.75​
7.46​
0.39​
2.22​
7.80​
7.42​
0.44​
2.47​
7.85​
7.37​
0.49​
2.74​
7.90​
7.31​
0.54​
3.03​
7.95​
7.25​
0.61​
3.36​
8.00​
7.18​
0.67​
3.71​
8.05​
7.10​
0.75​
4.09​
8.10​
7.01​
0.83​
4.50​
8.15​
6.92​
0.92​
4.95​
8.20​
6.81​
1.01​
5.42​
8.25​
6.70​
1.12​
5.93​
8.30​
6.57​
1.23​
6.47​
8.35​
6.44​
1.35​
7.05​
8.40​
6.29​
1.48​
7.66​
8.45​
6.13​
1.62​
8.29​
8.50​
5.97​
1.77​
8.95​
8.55​
5.79​
1.93​
9.64​
8.60​
5.60​
2.09​
10.34​
The last column of Table 1 is a value I am calling bicarbonate delta. It is the percent change in bicarbonate for a 0.1 pH unit change in the pH. The way to interpret it is as follows. If you have a tank with an average pH of 8.15 with a daily pH swing of 0.1 pH unit, the bicarbonate concentration is swinging by 5% daily even if you hold alkalinity steady at exactly 8.00 dKH. Obviously, if the pH swing is zero (which is quite unusual), the bicarbonate will be fixed at 6.92 “dKH”. On the other hand, some hobbyists have much higher pH changes day to night (or during the day from morning to evening) and might see a change of 0.3 or 0.4 pH units and might see a change in bicarbonate of 13% over that time, even with alkalinity constant.


Now we can answer the question I posed above:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2

Each, it turns out, has about a 0.9 “dKH” change in the bicarbonate concentration over time, or about 10%. Curiously, the carbonate concentration changes far more (on a percentage basis) in scenario A ( 128%) than in scenario B (10%). Finally, if you think CO2 is important, it is changing a lot in scenario A (more than 100%) and only changing about 10% in scenario B.

I won’t try to claim what is and isn’t optimum for growing corals, or even how to define a test that evaluates it.

But I will suggest that there is more to a coral's environmental stability than total alkalinity, even assuming that total alkalinity is a big part of it.

Perhaps folks with an experimental bent might consider “chasing pH” or “chasing stable pH” while also maintaining stable alkalinity to see if it has benefits.

For folks who are interested in details of these sorts of calculations, they can be found in calculations for Bjerrum plots of carbonate in seawater, which is easy to find online and not that hard to put into excel.
This suggests to me that dosing less alkalinity at night (and more during the day), say 1/3 as much or some such, in order to decrease swings in dKH that are the result of different rates of consumption might actually increase the instability of carbonate availability. Consequently, this practice could actually be counterproductive. It might also be easier to maintain carbonate stability by allowing Alkalinity to swing up at night/early morning like it will in a typical automatic dosing setup to compensate for the increased pH later in the day, rather than trying to hold dKH and pH steady all day and night.
 

drawman

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I wonder at what point people start to notice issues with coral because of big pH swings. I have a 0.4 pH swing daily (7.8-8.2) and it makes me think about employing a kalk dripper at night. Similar to what @Xero is trying to do but more crude.
 

Dr. Jim

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I first attempted to maintain a stable pH by controlling ATO additions with or without kalk, similar to what @Xero has done, but had to stop because my alkalinity rose too much. (This was probably due to the fact that the 60 gal tank I was using was only about 3 months old and had only relatively new SPS frags (30) that probably weren't consuming much of anything). (I posted a thread about this on the GHL forum a while back, shortly after getting my GHL Controller, but it is geared mostly to using GHL ATO sensors and GHL Programmable Logic: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...ensors-as-backups-dr-jim.692847/#post-7132998)

I then tried using motorized ball valves (controlled by a GHL Controller) to regulate the addition of 3 levels of CO2 going to my skimmer: Room Air (high CO2); Outside Air (Low CO2) and Outside Air Scrubbed (Very Low CO2). I was able to maintain a pH of 8.30 with a 0.05 swing (similar to Xero's, with a 0.04 swing). What worried me was the almost hourly fluctuation, up and down, similar to Xero's chart. Again, I was using the same tank (40 gal actual water) with about 30 SPS frags that was now set up for only 4 months. I'm sure there were, and still are (1 mo later), many reasons why the frags are just "hanging in there" and not thriving, but I had to consider the "abnormal" hourly fluctuations as possibly causing problems so I abandoned this "experiment."

I came close to posting a detailed thread about this crude "experiment" but decided against it since it would be a long "read" and I'm not sure what conclusions could be drawn from it. Once my tank has "aged" more and I have more confidence with my corals flourishing, I will try both experiments again, or maybe a combination of the two (i.e. pH control using ATO kalk, and, pH control via motorized ball valves controlling CO2 input).

Besides the "unnatural" hourly pH fluctuations, the other things that concern me are, how do I know what the ideal pH is? And, what are the chances that all species of SPS prefer that particular pH? (I randomly chose pH 8.30 because of studies, including BRS's, that show better growth at a higher pH).

@Lasse wrote: "We did construct that system in a way there the pH was constant and not jump up and down along a hysteresis curve". Lasse, are you able to explain how that was done to eliminate the jumping up and down?
And, I know you are using solenoids to main a pH between 8.1-8.2. Are you finding frequent, perhaps hourly, fluctuations between the 8.1 and 8.2? If so, does this not concern you (in the sense that these fluctuations certainly aren't natural "in the wild" and maybe they could be detrimental)?

Xero and Lasse....and others.....thank you for any input!
 

Lasse

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First - there is reports of pH fluctuations in wild reefs - as much as 0.2 between night and day. That´s does not concern me so much. In the experiment I referred we use 20 liter buckets as sumps - one for every test aquaria of 10 liters. In this buckets we could both inject CO2 and aerate with CO2 free air. We use GHLs function Pulse variable and the physical pH probe for CO2 and the virtual (clone of the physical) for the aeration. The CO injecting was fast - we had a pulse of 2 sec and paus of 5 sec for the most.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Joedubyk

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I am able to keep SUPER stable ALK. I notice a big difference in growth + consumption by keeping my pH higher, even with swings. i am going to make RANDYs high pH alk tomorrow. I am going to try and keep it 8.1 - 8.4ish
 

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I guess this is the time and place for me to talk about what I am doing. It is incredible unorthodox and sometimes I think stupid, but here are the pictures (and current growth) that drive me.
Purple Acropora 1.jpg
Purple Acropora new 1.jpg


These photos where taken three months apart. This is under VHO lighting on a 45 gallon breeder. This is a plenum system. I have thought about this long and hard and recall there being a lost sea cucumber during this time. I can't remember exactly if this was the time or not, but I suspect that it was.

The thing that is so fascinating about this picture is how the coral grew. I have never seen captive coral really grow in areas that are shaded, it seems to me in the wild that a coral would want this to maintain strength against wave action. I know it is a bit hard to see in the new picture but it is indeed plating down around the base.

I have run a small plenum on my current tank. Not a sand bed based plenum but a PVC based pipe with plenum sand dimensions. You can see it here behind the nem.
2016-02-21 14.04.18.jpg


I have grown a stylo and wild caught porites with just this plenum.

2017-05-21 10.08.33.jpg


The plenum has put out what is necessary for coral growth with absolute dog**** parameters. I haven't really bothered keeping track of the parameters because I know that they are bad and it seems really irrelevant.

About six months ago I decided I wanted to try and see if I could make the plenum more efficient because I really really love acro, and since my wife wanted to keep the tanks I guessed that the fish wouldn't really care, so I started experimenting. First I pulled the plenum out of the tank and ran a doser through it trying to force a constant flow of water where the plenum would work on just diffusion. This produced very little as far as verifiable alk, calcium numbers. During this time I checked my tank that had the very large stylo colony (this purple stylo is a dang weed) and the wild porities. My numbers when I first started to check were alk 5.4 ca 380. I have iterated this plenum and somewhere along the way it became an anaerobic digester. I feed it regularly with chicken scraps and cheap beef that I bought.

Sorry for all the background maybe it was necessary maybe not but I thought it would be helpful. So here I am today. I have a large digester that push about 3 liters a day through (it seems to be very happy with amount). I have done many many many crazy things with this and this is where things MAY be relevant to what is being discussed here. First off I don't have a lab and I don't really have any tools outside what I can get as a hobbyist to measure. I use Salifert everything. As an aside the anaerobic digestion does indeed eliminate nitrate. As far as I can test nitrate comes in but it doesn't come out. The process of the anaerobic decomposition does indeed produce free calcium and alkalinity, not much but some. It varies but I can see anywhere from 30 - 120ppm ca, this is what is left when I remove tank ca, and is delayed but it is the best I have. It also produces a very large amount of "dKH". On the order of 60 dKH. I measure based on the 3 liters that I move to determine output. It took me some time to realize that this is actually HCO3 and that I can effectively out gas it using a protein skimmer. This will leave about 12-24 dKH if I out gas. Even with the amounts I have stated the alk in the tank has been low ( 5ish). The crazy part is that I am still seeing very very good coral growth. My latest game to boost the numbers and maybe I am just chasing is to add Ca(OH)2. I bought a kalkwasser reactor. I did some really dumb things but here is what I found:

If you put kalk directly in powder form to the digester effluent. It seems to bind the HCO3 that is there and adds ca as a bonus. This seems to bind the HCO3 to the ~60dKH of the digester out. If you use kalk in solution it will precipitate the ca (to 200ppm) and leave the dKH intact. If you use effluent in the kalk reactor you get crazy ca numbers 2800ppm and alk at the same level as the effluent or 60dKH. Also as to relevance the ph in the tank swings between 7.3 to 7.9. It goes higher when the window is open and when the alk is higher, but I am still trying to get that to happen.

I am still work in progress with this and I am still trying to make sense of the things that I am seeing, it seems relevant to this conversation and I thought I would throw it out there. Not really sure anyone cares about this but who knows :)

Edit: Forgot to add current pics (stream)
Twitch Stream
 

HuduVudu

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But I will suggest that there is more to a coral's environmental stability than total alkalinity, even assuming that total alkalinity is a big part of it.

Perhaps folks with an experimental bent might consider “chasing pH” or “chasing stable pH” while also maintaining stable alkalinity to see if it has benefits.

Challenge accepted ... kind of.

What if as a thought experiment we were to carbonate salt water and then add bleach to this carbonated salt water. By carefully adding the bleach we would be able to control the bicarbonate to carbonate ratio thus "chasing" PH. Unfortunately the NaCl level would eventually get away from us so a different sort of base would be required. How about Calcium Hydroxide. This would provide for us a way to "convert" bicarbonate to carbonate and provide some level of control to the amount of ionic hydrogen in the water. Thus "chasing" PH.

To my previous rambling post, I am indeed experimenting with one such system for this type of "balancing". I use quotes because real world PH fluctuations are difficult to control due to the amount of Calcium Hydroxide that can be added to a system. Also if would could add unlimited amounts I am not sure that it would be necessary or desirable for coral growth. You may be thinking that adding Calcium Hydroxide would be limited to evap, but why would that necessarily be the case? Why not add the Calcium Hydroxide directly to the water column ensuring unlimited use (up to any PH cap). What if you then add a bicarbonate source to ensure a downward PH pressure, thus allowing a push pull balance of PH and a constant addition carbonate to the system.

Ok, with that out of the way. Here is the theoretical system, or real world as the case may be: drip tank water through an anaerobic environment. Use food waste to increase the bacterial activity. Bind the very high bicarbonate concentrations in effluent using Calcium Hydroxide. Remove any hard precipitate and re-introduce fortified effluent back to the aquarium.

To note, I believe that this could also be accomplished with Calcium Reactors, but alas I am not using that system because of my tank size (20 breader), so some other brave soul my want to try that, if they believe my ideas have merit.

Some observations that I have had in my system that I think are important. I don't have problems with invertebrates. Snails feet stay normal and they are able to stick to surfaces, proper molting etc ... way back in the day it was thought that lack of iodine was the problem, I found that to be incorrect and I am now of the opinion that it is alkalinity related. Coral growth. Through observation I have found that many many tanks that have coral growth end up losing tissue in areas that are not in direct light. I have always found this to be puzzling because in the ocean space is premium and if you have space you win the reproduction growth war. Also the wave action of many places that coral grow would make the average aquarist run away in fear. Wouldn't a strong base attachment be built in genetically for corals. As mentioned in my previous post the corals in the system that I have actually grow in areas that are not lighted. I am unsure if this is because of the alkalinity or something from the anaerobic breakdown, but either way this to me is more natural.

I have also noticed that if I just dumped the high alkalinity (heavy bicarbonate) effluent back into the aquarium the aquarium alkalinity never reflected the high alkalinity input and most importantly the corals did not provide the high growth levels that I see now.

This was probably just as rambling as my previous post, but hopefully I got across the important points.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Challenge accepted ... kind of.

What if as a thought experiment we were to carbonate salt water and then add bleach to this carbonated salt water. By carefully adding the bleach we would be able to control the bicarbonate to carbonate ratio thus "chasing" PH. Unfortunately the NaCl level would eventually get away from us so a different sort of base would be required. How about Calcium Hydroxide. This would provide for us a way to "convert" bicarbonate to carbonate and provide some level of control to the amount of ionic hydrogen in the water. Thus "chasing" PH.

Bleach? Why add bleach?

Calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) is a fine thing to use for alk and calcium and some pH boost, but is not very soluble in fresh water for addition.
 

rishma

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@Dr. Jim

great posts. Why worry about 0.05 hourly swings? Seems like a large improvement over my daily swings of 0.3 which occurs the first few hours of lighting.
 

Dr. Jim

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@Dr. Jim

great posts. Why worry about 0.05 hourly swings? Seems like a large improvement over my daily swings of 0.3 which occurs the first few hours of lighting.
Your daily swing of 0.3 is very typical and "normal." The more I think about my "experiment" the more I wonder:

1) Even though the hourly swings are only 0.05, being that they are HOURLY....that's a lot of "swings" over a 24 hr period.
2) How do we know if all corals (SPS in my case) prefer to be maintained at a steady pH? And, if they do....
3) How do we know what pH that is?

I have put my "experiment" on hold for a while while I'm battling with trying to figure out why I have a high Sn (tin) level (over 200x normal on repeat tests). But, I do plan to re-visit the pH experiment once this tin problem is resolved and my corals become more stabilized again.
 

Smarkow

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Well, your tank may very well use them in the expected proportion, it is just that limewater (kalkwasser) does not provide the right ratio. I used kalkwasser for 20 years, and I selected a low calcium/high alk mix (normal IO) for that very reason: it provides excessive calcium, as you observe.

The reason for this effect is that kalkwasser provides exactly the ratio of pure calcium carbonate, but in seawater or reef tanks, magnesium, and to a smaller extent, strontium, replace calcium in some of the deposited solids. Thus for a given alkalinity consumed, slightly less calcium is used that that unused calcium is why it rises over time when maintaining alkalinity exactly with kalkwasser.
Okay so I had noticed this as well, that my Calcium (Almost 500) was slowly rising compared to my alk (around 9-9.5 swing throughout the day). pH was higher than many (8.3 +/- 0.2) and I live in a moderately well sealed house with my wife. I ran a 75 gallon refugium PACKED with chaeto under kessil h380s. My montipora were growing like weeds as were my staghorns, it was the “best” my tank has ever been.

257286FA-B1AB-4519-86AF-4F3E59817B42.jpeg

F8F658C7-5401-4794-A1A3-64AF4D11C6C0.jpeg

5E0C5062-86B4-462D-A909-FBEFBB800B0D.jpeg


So the assumption I made based off of some reading was that algae use of bicarbonate for photosynthesis in a low CO2 environment (the high pH, use of kalkwasser) was the reason for greater alkalinity than calcium.

Supposing my refugium actually was using bicarb/carbonate for photosynthesis and my coral actually were using some mag and strontium for calcification, any thoughts as to which contributed more to the inbalance?

CBDB0A2D-3769-44C9-9CC7-111B8FD0D3F7.jpeg

55EC0EF3-3EF8-4960-BD4A-88F276934F58.jpeg

5BDF0240-56BE-4418-BCC7-A04538E7A43B.jpeg
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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@Randy Holmes-Farley , what happens to bi-carb in the water if co2 is used to drive ph down? Does it precipitate or do the ions bind to something else?

Nothing happens to bicarbonate already there. Carbonate is converted into bicarbonate as CO2 rises.

CO3-- + H2O + CO2 --> 2 HCO3-
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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So the assumption I made based off of some reading was that algae use of bicarbonate for photosynthesis in a low CO2 environment (the high pH, use of kalkwasser) was the reason for greater alkalinity than calcium.

Supposing my refugium actually was using bicarb/carbonate for photosynthesis and my coral actually were using some mag and strontium for calcification, any thoughts as to which contributed more to the inbalance?

Nothing you posted would cause an imbalance.

While bicarbonate can be used as a carbon source for photosynthesis, that process CANNOT reduce alkalinity.

This is what happens:

HCO3- ---> CO2 (which is then used for photosynthesis) + OH- (which is dumped back into the water)

That OH- carries the alkalintiy back to the bulk water, where it either combines with bicarbonate to form carbonate, or CO2 to form bicarbonate again:

OH- + HCO3- --> H2O + CO3--

OH- + CO2 ---> HCO3-
 
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Rick Mathew

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It is current the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish.

Since I have never seen anyone in the hobby actually provide experimental data on the sorts of pH and alkalinity issues that I am about to discuss, let’s back up and think through what these issues really mean and what they may imply for reefing.

Before going any further, let me pose a thought question:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2


As you might have guessed, if not actually calculated, those have identical variation in bicarbonate over the time period of interest.

Let’s start this discussion with some background on total alkalinity, and why we use such a weird, theoretical measurement. It is certainly not because it is the exact thing corals “care” about. Total alkalinity is the sum of a bunch of different things in the water, some of which are counted once (bicarbonate, silicate, hydrogen phosphate, borate, magnesium monohydroxide, hydroxide), some twice (phosphate and carbonate) and one (hydrogen ion) is subtracted back out to get the final answer. Certainly, it is mostly bicarbonate, and it is far easier to measure than is bicarbonate alone. So if we care about bicarbonate and cannot readily measure it, total alkalinity is a fall back measurement that may have value.

In fact, the reason we measure total alkalinity is because corals use bicarbonate (at least that is the current consensus in the scientific community) to gain the carbonate they need for formation of calcium carbonate skeletons (and potentially for the CO2 they need for photosynthesis as well). Let me just back up that assertion with a recent reference to justify the importance of bicarbonate. Using “current” references is important, as this very complex field has evolved a lot in the past 20 years (and still has a lot to learn).

Figure 1 in this paper from 2019 shows bicarbonate as the ion taken up from the bulk water:

Electrophysiological evidence for light-activated cation transport in calcifying corals https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2018.2444

However, the point I’m going to make about stability isn’t changed by whether corals take up bicarbonate or carbonate (or even CO2) as their source of dissolved inorganic carbon for photosynthesis.


The point that I will make is that NONE of these (bicarbonate, carbonate, or CO2) are kept stable with stable “total alkalinity”, if one ignores pH. If none of these are stable, how could stability of total alkalinity be important? Or, thought of a little differently, maybe it is only part of a larger “stability” issue that reefers have yet to really understand.

Let’s now delve into what it means for total alkalinity to be stable. What, if anything, is really stable about water with stable alkalinity if the pH is allowed to vary?

The table below shows the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate present as a function of pH, where the total alkalinity is held constant at 8 dKH (for ease of calculation, I’m ignoring all the other minor contributors to total alkalinity). I know my scientist friends will laugh at using dKH as a unit of measure of bicarbonate or carbonate, but I think it makes it easier for ordinary reefers to not get distracted by conversion into other units, such as meq/L.

Table 1. Bicarbonate and Carbonate as a function of pH in seawater with total alkalinity of 8 dKH. Bicarbonate delta is the percentage difference in bicarbonate for each 0.1 pH unit change.

pHHCO3- (dKH)CO3— (dKH)Bicarbonate Delta
7.60​
7.54​
0.28​
7.65​
7.52​
0.31​
1.80​
7.70​
7.49​
0.35​
2.00​
7.75​
7.46​
0.39​
2.22​
7.80​
7.42​
0.44​
2.47​
7.85​
7.37​
0.49​
2.74​
7.90​
7.31​
0.54​
3.03​
7.95​
7.25​
0.61​
3.36​
8.00​
7.18​
0.67​
3.71​
8.05​
7.10​
0.75​
4.09​
8.10​
7.01​
0.83​
4.50​
8.15​
6.92​
0.92​
4.95​
8.20​
6.81​
1.01​
5.42​
8.25​
6.70​
1.12​
5.93​
8.30​
6.57​
1.23​
6.47​
8.35​
6.44​
1.35​
7.05​
8.40​
6.29​
1.48​
7.66​
8.45​
6.13​
1.62​
8.29​
8.50​
5.97​
1.77​
8.95​
8.55​
5.79​
1.93​
9.64​
8.60​
5.60​
2.09​
10.34​

The last column of Table 1 is a value I am calling bicarbonate delta. It is the percent change in bicarbonate for a 0.1 pH unit change in the pH. The way to interpret it is as follows. If you have a tank with an average pH of 8.15 with a daily pH swing of 0.1 pH unit, the bicarbonate concentration is swinging by 5% daily even if you hold alkalinity steady at exactly 8.00 dKH. Obviously, if the pH swing is zero (which is quite unusual), the bicarbonate will be fixed at 6.92 “dKH”. On the other hand, some hobbyists have much higher pH changes day to night (or during the day from morning to evening) and might see a change of 0.3 or 0.4 pH units and might see a change in bicarbonate of 13% over that time, even with alkalinity constant.

Now we can answer the question I posed above:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2

Each, it turns out, has about a 0.9 “dKH” change in the bicarbonate concentration over time, or about 10%. Curiously, the carbonate concentration changes far more (on a percentage basis) in scenario A ( 128%) than in scenario B (10%). Finally, if you think CO2 is important, it is changing a lot in scenario A (more than 100%) and only changing about 10% in scenario B.

I won’t try to claim what is and isn’t optimum for growing corals, or even how to define a test that evaluates it.

But I will suggest that there is more to a coral's environmental stability than total alkalinity, even assuming that total alkalinity is a big part of it.

Perhaps folks with an experimental bent might consider “chasing pH” or “chasing stable pH” while also maintaining stable alkalinity to see if it has benefits.

For folks who are interested in details of these sorts of calculations, they can be found in calculations for Bjerrum plots of carbonate in seawater, which is easy to find online and not that hard to put into excel.

Very nicely done!! ....Love it when that data speaks!

rick
 

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Nothing you posted would cause an imbalance.

While bicarbonate can be used as a carbon source for photosynthesis, that process CANNOT reduce alkalinity.

This is what happens:

HCO3- ---> CO2 (which is then used for photosynthesis) + OH- (which is dumped back into the water)

That OH- carries the alkalintiy back tot eh bulk water, where it either combines with bicarbonate to form carboante, or CO2 to form bicarbonate again:

OH- + HCO3- --> H2O + CO3--

OH- + CO2 ---> HCO3-
Mind blown. Of course you are right, not sure how I missed that. Thanks!!!!! This is one of my favorite things about R2R and this hobby :)
 

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It is current the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish.

Since I have never seen anyone in the hobby actually provide experimental data on the sorts of pH and alkalinity issues that I am about to discuss, let’s back up and think through what these issues really mean and what they may imply for reefing.

Before going any further, let me pose a thought question:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2


As you might have guessed, if not actually calculated, those have identical variation in bicarbonate over the time period of interest.

Let’s start this discussion with some background on total alkalinity, and why we use such a weird, theoretical measurement. It is certainly not because it is the exact thing corals “care” about. Total alkalinity is the sum of a bunch of different things in the water, some of which are counted once (bicarbonate, silicate, hydrogen phosphate, borate, magnesium monohydroxide, hydroxide), some twice (phosphate and carbonate) and one (hydrogen ion) is subtracted back out to get the final answer. Certainly, it is mostly bicarbonate, and it is far easier to measure than is bicarbonate alone. So if we care about bicarbonate and cannot readily measure it, total alkalinity is a fall back measurement that may have value.

In fact, the reason we measure total alkalinity is because corals use bicarbonate (at least that is the current consensus in the scientific community) to gain the carbonate they need for formation of calcium carbonate skeletons (and potentially for the CO2 they need for photosynthesis as well). Let me just back up that assertion with a recent reference to justify the importance of bicarbonate. Using “current” references is important, as this very complex field has evolved a lot in the past 20 years (and still has a lot to learn).

Figure 1 in this paper from 2019 shows bicarbonate as the ion taken up from the bulk water:

Electrophysiological evidence for light-activated cation transport in calcifying corals https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2018.2444

However, the point I’m going to make about stability isn’t changed by whether corals take up bicarbonate or carbonate (or even CO2) as their source of dissolved inorganic carbon for photosynthesis.


The point that I will make is that NONE of these (bicarbonate, carbonate, or CO2) are kept stable with stable “total alkalinity”, if one ignores pH. If none of these are stable, how could stability of total alkalinity be important? Or, thought of a little differently, maybe it is only part of a larger “stability” issue that reefers have yet to really understand.

Let’s now delve into what it means for total alkalinity to be stable. What, if anything, is really stable about water with stable alkalinity if the pH is allowed to vary?

The table below shows the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate present as a function of pH, where the total alkalinity is held constant at 8 dKH (for ease of calculation, I’m ignoring all the other minor contributors to total alkalinity). I know my scientist friends will laugh at using dKH as a unit of measure of bicarbonate or carbonate, but I think it makes it easier for ordinary reefers to not get distracted by conversion into other units, such as meq/L.

Table 1. Bicarbonate and Carbonate as a function of pH in seawater with total alkalinity of 8 dKH. Bicarbonate delta is the percentage difference in bicarbonate for each 0.1 pH unit change.

pHHCO3- (dKH)CO3— (dKH)Bicarbonate Delta
7.60​
7.54​
0.28​
7.65​
7.52​
0.31​
1.80​
7.70​
7.49​
0.35​
2.00​
7.75​
7.46​
0.39​
2.22​
7.80​
7.42​
0.44​
2.47​
7.85​
7.37​
0.49​
2.74​
7.90​
7.31​
0.54​
3.03​
7.95​
7.25​
0.61​
3.36​
8.00​
7.18​
0.67​
3.71​
8.05​
7.10​
0.75​
4.09​
8.10​
7.01​
0.83​
4.50​
8.15​
6.92​
0.92​
4.95​
8.20​
6.81​
1.01​
5.42​
8.25​
6.70​
1.12​
5.93​
8.30​
6.57​
1.23​
6.47​
8.35​
6.44​
1.35​
7.05​
8.40​
6.29​
1.48​
7.66​
8.45​
6.13​
1.62​
8.29​
8.50​
5.97​
1.77​
8.95​
8.55​
5.79​
1.93​
9.64​
8.60​
5.60​
2.09​
10.34​

The last column of Table 1 is a value I am calling bicarbonate delta. It is the percent change in bicarbonate for a 0.1 pH unit change in the pH. The way to interpret it is as follows. If you have a tank with an average pH of 8.15 with a daily pH swing of 0.1 pH unit, the bicarbonate concentration is swinging by 5% daily even if you hold alkalinity steady at exactly 8.00 dKH. Obviously, if the pH swing is zero (which is quite unusual), the bicarbonate will be fixed at 6.92 “dKH”. On the other hand, some hobbyists have much higher pH changes day to night (or during the day from morning to evening) and might see a change of 0.3 or 0.4 pH units and might see a change in bicarbonate of 13% over that time, even with alkalinity constant.

Now we can answer the question I posed above:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2

Each, it turns out, has about a 0.9 “dKH” change in the bicarbonate concentration over time, or about 10%. Curiously, the carbonate concentration changes far more (on a percentage basis) in scenario A ( 128%) than in scenario B (10%). Finally, if you think CO2 is important, it is changing a lot in scenario A (more than 100%) and only changing about 10% in scenario B.

I won’t try to claim what is and isn’t optimum for growing corals, or even how to define a test that evaluates it.

But I will suggest that there is more to a coral's environmental stability than total alkalinity, even assuming that total alkalinity is a big part of it.

Perhaps folks with an experimental bent might consider “chasing pH” or “chasing stable pH” while also maintaining stable alkalinity to see if it has benefits.

For folks who are interested in details of these sorts of calculations, they can be found in calculations for Bjerrum plots of carbonate in seawater, which is easy to find online d not that hard to put into excel.
Hi. Inter
It is current the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish.

Since I have never seen anyone in the hobby actually provide experimental data on the sorts of pH and alkalinity issues that I am about to discuss, let’s back up and think through what these issues really mean and what they may imply for reefing.

Before going any further, let me pose a thought question:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2


As you might have guessed, if not actually calculated, those have identical variation in bicarbonate over the time period of interest.

Let’s start this discussion with some background on total alkalinity, and why we use such a weird, theoretical measurement. It is certainly not because it is the exact thing corals “care” about. Total alkalinity is the sum of a bunch of different things in the water, some of which are counted once (bicarbonate, silicate, hydrogen phosphate, borate, magnesium monohydroxide, hydroxide), some twice (phosphate and carbonate) and one (hydrogen ion) is subtracted back out to get the final answer. Certainly, it is mostly bicarbonate, and it is far easier to measure than is bicarbonate alone. So if we care about bicarbonate and cannot readily measure it, total alkalinity is a fall back measurement that may have value.

In fact, the reason we measure total alkalinity is because corals use bicarbonate (at least that is the current consensus in the scientific community) to gain the carbonate they need for formation of calcium carbonate skeletons (and potentially for the CO2 they need for photosynthesis as well). Let me just back up that assertion with a recent reference to justify the importance of bicarbonate. Using “current” references is important, as this very complex field has evolved a lot in the past 20 years (and still has a lot to learn).

Figure 1 in this paper from 2019 shows bicarbonate as the ion taken up from the bulk water:

Electrophysiological evidence for light-activated cation transport in calcifying corals https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2018.2444

However, the point I’m going to make about stability isn’t changed by whether corals take up bicarbonate or carbonate (or even CO2) as their source of dissolved inorganic carbon for photosynthesis.


The point that I will make is that NONE of these (bicarbonate, carbonate, or CO2) are kept stable with stable “total alkalinity”, if one ignores pH. If none of these are stable, how could stability of total alkalinity be important? Or, thought of a little differently, maybe it is only part of a larger “stability” issue that reefers have yet to really understand.

Let’s now delve into what it means for total alkalinity to be stable. What, if anything, is really stable about water with stable alkalinity if the pH is allowed to vary?

The table below shows the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate present as a function of pH, where the total alkalinity is held constant at 8 dKH (for ease of calculation, I’m ignoring all the other minor contributors to total alkalinity). I know my scientist friends will laugh at using dKH as a unit of measure of bicarbonate or carbonate, but I think it makes it easier for ordinary reefers to not get distracted by conversion into other units, such as meq/L.

Table 1. Bicarbonate and Carbonate as a function of pH in seawater with total alkalinity of 8 dKH. Bicarbonate delta is the percentage difference in bicarbonate for each 0.1 pH unit change.

pHHCO3- (dKH)CO3— (dKH)Bicarbonate Delta
7.60​
7.54​
0.28​
7.65​
7.52​
0.31​
1.80​
7.70​
7.49​
0.35​
2.00​
7.75​
7.46​
0.39​
2.22​
7.80​
7.42​
0.44​
2.47​
7.85​
7.37​
0.49​
2.74​
7.90​
7.31​
0.54​
3.03​
7.95​
7.25​
0.61​
3.36​
8.00​
7.18​
0.67​
3.71​
8.05​
7.10​
0.75​
4.09​
8.10​
7.01​
0.83​
4.50​
8.15​
6.92​
0.92​
4.95​
8.20​
6.81​
1.01​
5.42​
8.25​
6.70​
1.12​
5.93​
8.30​
6.57​
1.23​
6.47​
8.35​
6.44​
1.35​
7.05​
8.40​
6.29​
1.48​
7.66​
8.45​
6.13​
1.62​
8.29​
8.50​
5.97​
1.77​
8.95​
8.55​
5.79​
1.93​
9.64​
8.60​
5.60​
2.09​
10.34​

The last column of Table 1 is a value I am calling bicarbonate delta. It is the percent change in bicarbonate for a 0.1 pH unit change in the pH. The way to interpret it is as follows. If you have a tank with an average pH of 8.15 with a daily pH swing of 0.1 pH unit, the bicarbonate concentration is swinging by 5% daily even if you hold alkalinity steady at exactly 8.00 dKH. Obviously, if the pH swing is zero (which is quite unusual), the bicarbonate will be fixed at 6.92 “dKH”. On the other hand, some hobbyists have much higher pH changes day to night (or during the day from morning to evening) and might see a change of 0.3 or 0.4 pH units and might see a change in bicarbonate of 13% over that time, even with alkalinity constant.

Now we can answer the question I posed above:

Which of the scenarios below is more “stable” in the sense of the concentration of bicarbonate in the water through the course of a day in a reef aquarium?

A. Alkalinity held at 8.00 dKH, pH varies from 7.9 to 8.3

B. Alkalinity varies from 7.5 to 8.4 dKH, pH fixed at 8.2

Each, it turns out, has about a 0.9 “dKH” change in the bicarbonate concentration over time, or about 10%. Curiously, the carbonate concentration changes far more (on a percentage basis) in scenario A ( 128%) than in scenario B (10%). Finally, if you think CO2 is important, it is changing a lot in scenario A (more than 100%) and only changing about 10% in scenario B.

I won’t try to claim what is and isn’t optimum for growing corals, or even how to define a test that evaluates it.

But I will suggest that there is more to a coral's environmental stability than total alkalinity, even assuming that total alkalinity is a big part of it.

Perhaps folks with an experimental bent might consider “chasing pH” or “chasing stable pH” while also maintaining stable alkalinity to see if it has benefits.

For folks who are interested in details of these sorts of calculations, they can be found in calculations for Bjerrum plots of carbonate in seawater, which is easy to find online and not that hard to put into excel.
Interesting subject. My comments:
If your theory shall be valid we must believe that the coral really prefer HCO3 before CO3, because the sum of HCO3+CO3,. thus the ”carbonate alkalinity” is almost constant with different pH (almost) . As a coral can use HCO3 to calcify, after it has expelled the H-ion, its quite likely to believe that a coral also appreciate CO3 ions as a calcification source as much as HCO3, if not even more. At least this has to be proven opposite before it can be any solid evidence in believing that a ultra stable pH has an impact of this kind. I did a quick research and could find articles that support that CO3 is also a very good accepted primary source for calcification. My own believe, based on what I have red so far, and can understand, is that a coral accepts both HCO3 and CO3, and as both works, its maybe not that crucial actually the ratio between HCO/CO3, AND as the sum of these are almost constant even when pH varies, the pH variation is not a problem, and thus has a much lower priority than stable total alkalinity.

My own experience, which ofcourse is not of scientific dignity, is also that a stable total alkalinity has remarkable positive effect on a tank. I started 3 years ago with my own machine, and since then have had a variation of total alk of not more than 0.1 dKH. But pH has been as always, like 0.3 diff during day. So pH I have not ”mixed with”. And during that period of 3 years, comparing with previous period of 20 years, these last 3 years have been almost with 0% issues, and a coral growth rate that have been enormous. And that is despite not quite high pH as max, but between 7.9-8.2 and a total alka of around 7.5dKH (so not such high that either).

I also believe that it´s good to mimic nature, and pH varies in nature’s due to light period, but total alkalinity doesn’t not. Do we really believe then its that crucial with stable HCO3 concentration when not even the nature have that due to also natures pH variation.? And again, as a coral should be able to use both HCO3 and CO3 and the sum of these are almost constant even with different pH, I dont believe there is such important with this stable also HCO3 concentration in particular. I believe thus in more that the sum is stable, and as that is not dependent on pH so much , I still think total alkalinity is more important to get stable than pH.

But why not, if any doubt and before we know, we can have both stable, as a double security?

But, based on what I have seen in my tank with NOT stable pH but ultra stable total alkalinity, that is evidence enough for me to say its maybe some waste of time and effort to chase a ultra stable pH. I dont think that will pay back. It would be so odd if a coral don´t prefer also the CO3 variant., that already is ”prepared” to be CaCO3 as coral dont have to use the energy driven process to expel the H-ion.

When is something proved? What is scientific research?

I am not convinced. BUT, I like the subject.

Jonas Roman
 
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If your theory shall be valid we must believe that the coral really prefer HCO3 before CO3,

Well, the idea for pH stability would hold whether corals actually take up CO3-- or HCO3-, but carbonate changes far more (proportionally) with pH than does bicarbonate (in the pH 7.8 to 8.5 range), so one might see pH effects more readily if they take up carbonate.

The problem with trying to just look at pH effects on calcification to say what they take up is more complicated than just which is present at increasing concentration as pH rises, because there are two different pH effects:

1. If corals take up HCO3-, they must pump out H+, and that is easier as pH rises.

2. if corals take up CO3--, then there is more of it present as pH rises.

Thus, in each case we might observe faster calcification at higher pH, and not know which was the reason.
 

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On more thought from me:
The pic I include I think tells that a coral manage very well using CO3 also as a primary source for calcification, speaking for that the total sum, thus carbonate alkalinity, is more important than the ratio HCO3/CO3. That also leads me to ask what you think is best in scenario A or B if you have to choose:

A: Stable pH, but unstable total alkal
B: Unstable pH (Normal unstable) but very stable total alkalinity

In scenario A we have unstable numbers of both HCO3 and CO3, the only thing that is stable is ratio HCO3/CO3 but that is not any primary points as long as the numbers itself fluctuates.
In scenario B we have stable sum of carbonates, DIC, carbonate alkalinity, and the only thing that varies is the ratio HCO3/CO3. But amount of building blocks are always same, which is what matters AMI

So, Based on that I believe that a coral can use CO3 as good as HCO3, and that the sum of HCO3+CO3 is almost same with stable total alk, even with variable pH, I would say scenario B is more important.
We can add a scenario C, stable pH and Stable alk. But again, as the sum is anyway same for HCO3+CO3, AND it seems like a coral uses CO3 as good as HCO3, I think its waste of efforts to chase a superstable pH.

The pic is from a article that shows (If i understand it correct) that corals takes CO3 also with no problem. I think, reason that all figures when you shall describe calcification always shows active transport of only HCO3, is because that is abundant. And of course still the major source. But that dont exclude that coral also can use CO3, and thus will not suffer from a shift in the ratio HCO3/CO3.

/Jonas Roman
 

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On more thought from me:
The pic I include I think tells that a coral manage very well using CO3 also as a primary source for calcification, speaking for that the total sum, thus carbonate alkalinity, is more important than the ratio HCO3/CO3. That also leads me to ask what you think is best in scenario A or B if you have to choose:

A: Stable pH, but unstable total alkal
B: Unstable pH (Normal unstable) but very stable total alkalinity

In scenario A we have unstable numbers of both HCO3 and CO3, the only thing that is stable is ratio HCO3/CO3 but that is not any primary points as long as the numbers itself fluctuates.
In scenario B we have stable sum of carbonates, DIC, carbonate alkalinity, and the only thing that varies is the ratio HCO3/CO3. But amount of building blocks are always same, which is what matters AMI

So, Based on that I believe that a coral can use CO3 as good as HCO3, and that the sum of HCO3+CO3 is almost same with stable total alk, even with variable pH, I would say scenario B is more important.
We can add a scenario C, stable pH and Stable alk. But again, as the sum is anyway same for HCO3+CO3, AND it seems like a coral uses CO3 as good as HCO3, I think its waste of efforts to chase a superstable pH.

The pic is from a article that shows (If i understand it correct) that corals takes CO3 also with no problem. I think, reason that all figures when you shall describe calcification always shows active transport of only HCO3, is because that is abundant. And of course still the major source. But that dont exclude that coral also can use CO3, and thus will not suffer from a shift in the ratio HCO3/CO3.

/Jonas Roman

I cannot really read the picture to tell what it is. There is no simple experiment that can distinguish bicarbonate from carbonate uptake, hence the reason it has been unclear in the scientific literature. One cannot move them independently without also changing pH. I do not know which they use, and they may use both, or they may use just one.

I'm not sure why one would want to pick between A or B. Your choice C that is better than either (both stable), and another might also be better (stable bicarbonate).
 

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