All-For-Reef: Enough iodine?

[dburnsworth]

1600 g powder container is $74 US dollar pre tax and shipping. It makes 10 liters.

Rough prices on the DIY parts:
Carbo-calcium powder 700g $23, 1400g $36
Bio-magnesium $18
TM Trace A 500ml $24, 1000ml $35
TM Trace K 500ml $25, 1000ml $35

When I was using the DIY parts I don't remember how long they lasted or how many liters they made up. I apologize so I can't compare directly. It has been a while. The recipe is 140g Carbo Calcium powder, 12g Bio magnesium, 100 ml Trace A, and 100 ml Trace K if I remember correctly.

I'd have to go back and find the DIY recipe thread here that someone posted thanking BRS, Zack as I think someone did the math. In any case I am not challenging you so please don't take it that way. I was just under the impression that $75 bucks for 10 liters that the powder container mixes up is the cheapest. There is a 5 gallon bucket I heard that is available but never seen it for sale. That may be the best price.

Note I'm only dosing 80 ml / day on my 210 mixed.

Yes…you are correct on those prices/yields. I thought at some point DIY was cheaper, maybe that was before the powder came out? Thanks for verifying this.

 

[Jgoal55]

This was my last ATI ICP test about two months ago in my 220g display tank:

Critically low Iodine:
9.92 µg/l
Ideal value: 64.85 µg/l

Critically high Strontium:
13.51 mg/l
Ideal value: 8.08 mg/l

Maganese, Iron, and Vanadium were are below normal, but not by much.

30g Frag tank results as follows:
Iodine: 23.11 µg/l
Strontium: 11.05 mg/l

Maganese, Iron, and Vanadium were are below normal, but not by much.

1 year ago I tested both these tanks and my Iodine was also critically low at
18.88 µg/l on the display and 21.18 µg/l on the frag tank.

I've used only AFR during this span and I did nothing to address these "issues."

I have very few corals in the display tank and a heavy population of corals in the frag tank that are growing and looking great. However, I have had very poor results when moving corals from my frag tank to the display tank. Both tanks use only AFR and the same TM Pro Reef Salt mixed water. I'm at a loss as to why the frag tank does well and not the display. Same lighting (all Kessil) and equivalent PAR readings and flow speeds. Similar nutrient levels as well. The only difference: Display has many fish, frag tank has two tiny fish.

At any rate, this being an iodine thread, I thought I'd share my results here. I will probably dose iodine soon.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

So will it hurt or help if i throw in 4-6 drops of Lugols into my 65g when I dose AFR?

 

[Salty_Northerner]

That's pretty strong stuff.

It's strong enough to put me off of buying and using that stuff. I used AFR and after months nothing looked better. Only thing I did notice is the pulsing Xenia stopped their pulsing. I now know when the iodine is low... because they don't pulse anymore. After using my now go-to iodine sup the Xenia pulse like mad and I only dosed 1 drop every 3rd day and then stopped . I'm using Aquaforest Iodum.

That seems to bump the iodine level up close to where it should be. I'll do my 10% water change weekly using Pro Reef salt and sometimes I can get away without dosing for a month. It all depends with that pulsing little weed does LOL.

 

[RoanokeReef]

So will it hurt or help if i throw in 4-6 drops of Lugols into my 65g when I dose AFR?

If you can't test for it, don't put it in.

 

[areefer01]

If you can't test for it, don't put it in.

Maybe - but hobbyist have been adding iodine for years.

 

[RoanokeReef]

Maybe - but hobbyist have been adding iodine for years.

So how do you know to add 5 drops or the whole bottle?

 

[areefer01]

So how do you know to add 5 drops or the whole bottle?

Common sense on the whole bottle part but you know this. As to the rest it is subjective. Some swear by it others don't care. Your point that since we can't test for it don't put it in is fine. I was simply saying that some hobbyist swear by it and have been adding it for a good while now. There are test kits out there but I do not know, nor claim to know, their accuracy. Hanna and Seachem both have them.

I believe RHF has a couple articles on it dating back to around early 2000 but don't hold me to that. I would have to do a search.

 

[PetitReef]

Hello @Hans-Werner,

i have been using AFR for 2 years now make several ICP during that period.
My tank is 300L with mainly frags acropora.
I have an AWC that change 3L per day and a refugium

my consumption is pretty low at 17ml per day.

regarding my trace, i saw that my iodine was low, so i purchased lugol, I first i dosed daily, bu now i add it to my PreMix Water.
I am attaching my last ICP (received result today) with the following results regarding trace:

Trace A-:
- Iodine too high, so i am going to reduce the lugol.
- Bromine 61.3 : level OK
- Fluoride 1.03 : a bit low but OK
- Molybdenum 8.9: Too low
- Selenium: non-detectable
- Vanadium 3.08 : a bit low but OK

Trace K+
- strontium 9.67 : A bit High
- barium 2.2 : too low
- iron : Non detectable
- manganese : 0,37 slightly high
- copper: non detectable
- zinc: non detectable
- nickel: 0.45 too low
- chromium: non detectable
- cobalt: Non detectable
- boron: 4.78 OK

i also added my ICP done in July (analysis-148424), since july only AFR and Iod was dosed

I fully understand the principale of AFR and trace are already present to cover a vast majority of tank.
It's my baseline and I want to tweak my AFR mix by adding Extra K+ and A- like i would do with DYI recipe.

but I don't know how much a should add, how much K+ or A- can I safely add to my AFR mix? 10ml, 50ml, 100ml. i will then adapt based on consumption and ICP, kind a moonshiner light with only A and K instead of each individual element.

I am growing several acropora from @Leonardo_ and visited his facility, given how beautiful his corals are using Balling and only A and K for trace. I would be more than happy to replicate his result to my tank with AFR instead of three part. like a moonshiner light :)

Also I read in another post that a new formula of AFR have more A- trace in it. where could i find the list of batches with this new formula?

Many thanks,
Petitreef

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello @Hans-Werner,

i have been using AFR for 2 years now make several ICP during that period.
My tank is 300L with mainly frags acropora.
I have an AWC that change 3L per day and a refugium

my consumption is pretty low at 17ml per day.

regarding my trace, i saw that my iodine was low, so i purchased lugol, I first i dosed daily, bu now i add it to my PreMix Water.
I am attaching my last ICP (received result today) with the following results regarding trace:

Trace A-:
- Iodine too high, so i am going to reduce the lugol.
- Bromine 61.3 : level OK
- Fluoride 1.03 : a bit low but OK
- Molybdenum 8.9: Too low
- Selenium: non-detectable
- Vanadium 3.08 : a bit low but OK

Trace K+
- strontium 9.67 : A bit High
- barium 2.2 : too low
- iron : Non detectable
- manganese : 0,37 slightly high
- copper: non detectable
- zinc: non detectable
- nickel: 0.45 too low
- chromium: non detectable
- cobalt: Non detectable
- boron: 4.78 OK

i also added my ICP done in July (analysis-148424), since july only AFR and Iod was dosed

I fully understand the principale of AFR and trace are already present to cover a vast majority of tank.
It's my baseline and I want to tweak my AFR mix by adding Extra K+ and A- like i would do with DYI recipe.

but I don't know how much a should add, how much K+ or A- can I safely add to my AFR mix? 10ml, 50ml, 100ml. i will then adapt based on consumption and ICP, kind a moonshiner light with only A and K instead of each individual element.

I am growing several acropora from @Leonardo_ and visited his facility, given how beautiful his corals are using Balling and only A and K for trace. I would be more than happy to replicate his result to my tank with AFR instead of three part. like a moonshiner light :)

Also I read in another post that a new formula of AFR have more A- trace in it. where could i find the list of batches with this new formula?

Many thanks,
Petitreef

Last and easiest question first: All batches in the last 3 years have the higher concentration of A- Elements, this is all batches starting with 2, 3 or 4.

About the results: In their recommendations the ICP labs are not neutral instances that give science backed recommendations. All ICP labs sell supplements and have an interest to sell every supplement they offer.

Since you can't sell a supplement for trace elements that are regularly not found by ICP-OES in natural or sufficient concentrations they will give a higher concentrations they can detect with ICP-OES as target concentrations.

You can find the natural concentrations in MBARI's Periodic Table of Elements in the Ocean PTEO.

For example for selenium the natural concentrations are around 2 nM and even much lower at the ocean surface. 2 nM is 158 ng/l or 0,16 ppb.

Co with up to 50 pM at the surface or 3 ng/l (0,003 ppb) is even much lower concentrated.

So these recommendations must be taken with a grain of salt.

For around two decades the "mainstream" opinion was that every "heavy metal" is bad. Now with ICP labs it changes into the other extreme that every trace element should be above the detection limits of ICP-OES.

Corals tolerate a certain range of trace elements which may be quite wide (at least tenfold) for some and less wide for others. In my opinion when using combination products it is sufficient to watch that some important ones like iodine and maybe zinc and nickel are in the target range and to assume that the others are also available.

However, it will not hurt if you try to dose 50 % of K+ Elements additionally and watch how the ICP results and corals react. With the A- Elements you can start with maybe additional 25 %. The reactions of the corals will most likely be positive.

 

[Superlightman]

This table is interesting but most of us will not be able to unterstand it, someone should transcript it to be able to compare it to the icp recommanded values

 

[PetitReef]

Thank you very much @Hans-Werner for taking the time to write a detail answer.

I started to add A and K to my Auto water change tank of 60 liter, changing 3l per day I replenish it every 2 weeks. dosing 30ml of each.


Going to add it to my AFR mix the next time to keep the philosophy of the single AFR dose to cover corals needs.

Love the idea to tune my AFR mix with A and K for extra traces with the help of ICP.

 

[PetitReef]

Hello,

I continue the experiment with fine tuning my A- and K+ docing with AFR.

i added 50% more of K+ and 25% of A- into my AFR and took a an ICP in november
it was a bit early and let it run until January, my daily AFR remaining aroung 19ml/day

On the January ICP i see that most of trace are too low. so i seems to have been under dosing based on my tank consumption and my salt, Nyos pure salt.


therefore, i will first return to dosing A and K in my AWC storing drum, I change 3L per day with the addition of A and K.
20ml of each for 40L of fresh salt water

when i pin point the exact consumption, i will try again the mix with AFR.

to be continued...

 

[ndds1]

Hello @Hans-Werner,
I've been using All-for-reef for 5 years now (switched over from Triton The Other Methods) and iodine has always on the low side. Here is the snapshot of test results from Triton ICP results just a week ago.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello @Hans-Werner,
I've been using All-for-reef for 5 years now (switched over from Triton The Other Methods) and iodine has always on the low side. Here is the snapshot of test results from Triton ICP results just a week ago.

The iodine concentration of 49 µg/l is in the recommended range and in my eyes is a very good concentration. The average natural iodine concentration is 58 µg/l with 41 µg/l at the surface and 69 µg/l in around 50 m/164 ft. depth according to data of the Periodic Table of Elements in the Ocean.

49 µg/l is almost as close as you can get with trace elements. There is a huge difference what is "spot on" between trace elements and major elements like calcium, magnesium, potassium or alkalinity.

 

[ndds1]

The iodine concentration of 49 µg/l is in the recommended range and in my eyes is a very good concentration. The average natural iodine concentration is 58 µg/l with 41 µg/l at the surface and 69 µg/l in around 50 m/164 ft. depth according to data of the Periodic Table of Elements in the Ocean.

49 µg/l is almost as close as you can get with trace elements. There is a huge difference what is "spot on" between trace elements and major elements like calcium, magnesium, potassium or alkalinity.

Hello @Hans-Werner,

Thanks for explaining my previous post. If you don't mind can you please look at my test results link here and tell me what would be the problem that I couldn't grow zoas or acans or leather in my tank? I have a mixed reef tank of sps, torches, lobo, mushroom and they can grow very healthy but if I throw in zoas they started to close up immediately and eventually will melt regardless of placement of low light or medium light. Leather tentacles won't extend amd My phosphate is not high or too low and my nitrate is always around 10. Thanks in advance for your response.

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

 

[areefer01]

Hello @Hans-Werner,

Thanks for explaining my previous post. If you don't mind can you please look at my test results link here and tell me what would be the problem that I couldn't grow zoas or acans or leather in my tank? I have a mixed reef tank of sps, torches, lobo, mushroom and they can grow very healthy but if I throw in zoas they started to close up immediately and eventually will melt regardless of placement of low light or medium light. Leather tentacles won't extend amd My phosphate is not high or too low and my nitrate is always around 10. Thanks in advance for your response.

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

If you want that level of assistance you may be better off to copy, create a new thread in the chemistry forum, and paste this in it. There are a lot of reasons why you may be having issues none of which is related to all for reef.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello @Hans-Werner,

Thanks for explaining my previous post. If you don't mind can you please look at my test results link here and tell me what would be the problem that I couldn't grow zoas or acans or leather in my tank? I have a mixed reef tank of sps, torches, lobo, mushroom and they can grow very healthy but if I throw in zoas they started to close up immediately and eventually will melt regardless of placement of low light or medium light. Leather tentacles won't extend amd My phosphate is not high or too low and my nitrate is always around 10. Thanks in advance for your response.

Showroom

The most experienced in solution based water chemistry in the industry. Continuing to revolutionise reef keeping worldwide since 2008.

www.triton-lab.de

I have taken a look at it and it is "inconspicuous". Maybe the problems are not (only) chemistry related. Lighting may play a role.Acanthastrea and zoas are more "deep water" and shade corals that prefer not the very brightest places in reef tanks, rather a place on the bottom or a bit shaded places. Too much light and low nutrients may be a bad combination which makes it impossible for acans and zoas to grow in your tank.

Maybe a bit more in phosphate and feeding may help.