Am I dealing with ich here?

[Jay Hemdal]

This generally lines up with what I've mostly read. So those reefers that are managing ich and having success with it must be done via different means of they are having success.

And yea, I've read you need a fairly beefy uv and fairly low flow to actually kill them, that way they have enough uvc exposure. But then you bring up the other part of this - if there's one intake and it cannot suck all of it up in the morning, they will find fish first. Essentially it sounds like you're only reducing a small percentage vs actually impacting the numbers in a significant way.

Does this mean most fish build immunity and fend it off to have success? Vs actual help from the UV.

Actually, to ensure accuracy, instead of me just paraphrasing my ideas, here is the exceprt from my fish disease book on UV use:



UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

For velvet, Amyloodinium, the fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them may get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. For Cryptocaryon, the tomites/theronts do seem to need to leave the fish, but with side stream application of UV (where only a portion of water passes through the unit) DWELL TIME becomes the limiting factor. Only a portion of the theronts are killed before enough of them attach to the fish to continue the infection. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the same “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

 

[Biff0rz]

Actually, to ensure accuracy, instead of me just paraphrasing my ideas, here is the exceprt from my fish disease book on UV use:



UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

For velvet, Amyloodinium, the fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them may get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. For Cryptocaryon, the tomites/theronts do seem to need to leave the fish, but with side stream application of UV (where only a portion of water passes through the unit) DWELL TIME becomes the limiting factor. Only a portion of the theronts are killed before enough of them attach to the fish to continue the infection. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the same “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

So I am able to get 185,000 uw/S/cm2 with my uv with low flow/dwell time inside of it. That said, it's only going to reduce numbers. But I guess that's the management part of this? And it seems to work for many? But I also need to have it do so from the display. Not sump.

If I were to go down the path of eradication, I'm likely going to have to tear my whole reef down. I do not think I will be able to catch all of my fish. Particularly my wrasse and anthias, they wedge in rocks or bury in sand, are hard to trap. This doesn't really seem possible unless I just want to full reboot and I don't.

So if management is my best path, and uv is useless, what should I do?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I am able to get 185,000 uw/S/cm2 with my uv with low flow/dwell time inside of it. That said, it's only going to reduce numbers. But I guess that's the management part of this? And it seems to work for many? But I also need to have it do so from the display. Not sump.

If I were to go down the path of eradication, I'm likely going to have to tear my whole reef down. I do not think I will be able to catch all of my fish. Particularly my wrasse and anthias, they wedge in rocks or bury in sand, are hard to trap. This doesn't really seem possible unless I just want to full reboot and I don't.

So if management is my best path, and uv is useless, what should I do?

If you replumb your UV, then it works as one part of a successful management protocol. The kicker is the dwell time I mentioned - to get a good kill dose, you needed to slow the flow rate down. That in turn allows more of the theronts to escape the path of the UV and land on the fish, continuing the infection.

For full eradication, you would need to fallow the tank by removing all of the fish, treating them with coppersafe for 30 days, then holding them out of the DT for a full 60 days.

 

[W31Olds]

Biff, you definitely have a difficult problem here. Your Tank looks very impressive, and you have some nice and expensive fish and many corals. If I were in your shoes, I would probably setup a couple of 40 gallon breeders with SW, filtration, heat, etc. and let them sit. I would monitor your DT for now, but you would be ready if it goes downhill. As far as catching the wrasses/ anthias, you may have to just leave them in and try using Fish Traps or and I don't like saying this wait until they get sick enough that you can catch them. Problem is, it would extend a fallow period and stress your fish in QT. I would also make up some Media Bags with Matrix in them and start cycling them in your DT's sump. I always have some ready to go in my sump.

 

[Biff0rz]

Biff, you definitely have a difficult problem here. Your Tank looks very impressive, and you have some nice and expensive fish and many corals. If I were in your shoes, I would probably setup a couple of 40 gallon breeders with SW, filtration, heat, etc. and let them sit. I would monitor your DT for now, but you would be ready if it goes downhill. As far as catching the wrasses/ anthias, you may have to just leave them in and try using Fish Traps or and I don't like saying this wait until they get sick enough that you can catch them. Problem is, it would extend a fallow period and stress your fish in QT. I would also make up some Media Bags with Matrix in them and start cycling them in your DT's sump. I always have some ready to go in my sump.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Honestly, what’s eating at me the most is that I kept ich out for six years. Six. And then I slip up once. It’s frustrating. Ugh.

A couple of very experienced local reefers who’ve helped me over the years suggested the same thing you did. Basically, wait and see, then manage it. Their view is that keeping ich completely out long term just isn’t realistic and that eventually I’d end up here anyway. They’re probably not wrong. But at the same time, I did keep it out for six years. That feels like proof that I could do it again. I almost don’t want one weak moment to undo that standard I set for myself.

The flip side is I’ve never actually managed ich in a display, so I don’t fully know what I’d be signing up for. From what I hear, it might not be that bad. Then again, I’ve read some horror stories too. Both of my experienced friends said the same thing independently. They QT, but they assume ich is present and don’t chase total eradication anymore. They’ve torn down displays twice for ich and wouldn’t do it again. Velvet or brook, yes. Ich, no. And they both run systems nicer than mine. So I’m torn.

They also mentioned they think I could lose more fish trying to hold them in QT for three months than just leaving them in the display. I’m not totally sure what that’s based on, but they’ve been doing this longer than I have, so I can’t just dismiss it.

If there’s one thing this hobby has drilled into me, it’s patience. So if 90 days fallow is the move, I’ll do it. Not exactly thrilling, but it is what it is. On the bright side, at least the corals won’t get knocked over or broken by the fish during that time. I do wonder how the nutrient balance would shift without fish. Would I need to dose nitrates or phosphates? I test weekly and would step that up, but I assume removing the fish and their feeding would change things, less poop, less coral food.

As far as QT logistics go, I feel reasonably prepared. I’ve already got HOB sponges sitting in the sump to seed. I also have removable bio balls and some extra rock I could pull from the sump if needed, especially if I end up running copper - I can just toss that rock and add replacement clean dry rock in the sump. If I move seeded sponges and bio media into a new tank, I’d expect it to cycle fast, maybe not even cycle at all in a noticeable way.

I was even considering picking up a 90 to 125 gallon off Facebook Marketplace and just housing all the fish together. I’ve got a spare skimmer I could run to help with oxygenation and nutrient control, so that part doesn’t worry me too much. I suppose I could also look for a large 300g tub. Would likely help when I decide to upgrade :)

What really stresses me out is the idea of tearing the display apart just to catch a few fish. The wrasses I could probably track at dusk, see where they bury or wedge in, and scoop them up with some sand. The anthias are a different story. They wedge deep into rock to sleep and they’re so skittish they won’t touch a trap, even if I withhold food. I guess I could try starving them out, but realistically I might lose a few in the process, and that part doesn’t sit well with me either. Sort of last resort.

Here's my fish stock-
Yellow (from Hawaii)
Achilles (from Hawaii)
Naso
Purple
Copperband Butterfly
Dwarf Potters Angel (from Hawaii)
Starry Blenny
Clown tang
Dejardini Sailfin tang
2 storm clowns
5 lyretail anthias
Cleaner wrasse
Ornate leopard wrasse
Melanurus wrasse

Not in tank and in QT-
Black tang
Coral banded shrimp

Everything is fat and happy except the black tang, he's fairly thin but in QT and I'm fattening him up. He won't be dealing with the ich, unless it gets there via humidity/airborne.

Fudge.

 

[PhamousPhish]

First, I qt or purchase qt'd everything. Fish, Inverts, all of it.

My last fish purchase was 2mo ago and it's not been introduced to the system. My last invert purchase was 6mo ago. I've never added a fish or invert without it being qt'd, and I'm very careful where I buy it.

Yesterday I noticed some spots on my naso and purple, but chalked it up to fighting. They swat once a in a while. But it's mostly my purple and achilles that have beefs. So the naso having some was strange. Today I notice more white flat spots on the purple, both sides. Same with the naso but the naso has some raised pin head sized ones. And now so does the achilles - raised pin head sized. My copperband has two spots too. My yellow tang has nothing. Wrasse, nothing. Anthias, nothing. All other fish, nothing. I have a connected frag tank with a sailfin and a clown tang, no signs on them.

In the event this is ich, I have zero idea where it came from. The new fish I purchased was qt'd but I have him bulking up in an observation tank and he shows zero signs of ich and hasn't shown signs either. I have a uv but it's been only running at night for 4hrs for the past 6mo+.

All fish are behaving normally, no scratching behaviors. Eating normally.

So I'm not really sure what the heck is going on here.

Here's a video, I can grab stills if needed.

Are the fish flashing? Im having kind of a similar issue dont know if its flukes...very frustrated and discouraged

 

[W31Olds]

I was going to suggest just getting a second large Tank off FB Marketplace. They are relatively cheap and it's sounds like you have other items to build it up. I'm not that experienced on catching some of these speedy skittish fish. I would probably make a new post explaining your problem. There must be someone that might have a trick or two to help. One thing I do is siphon the top 1/4" of sand in my Tank because I have a minor Algae problem figuring I can replace it when a want. I would consider that. You might not be able to reach the entire tank but it might help. I would also get some Neophose and Neonitro if you have to remove some of your fish.