Americans vs Europeans

[Bruce Burnett]

Well I have seen some pretty nice tanks here in the US. I think more people post here and they are fairly new tanks. I try to stock my tank quickly, keep it simple, don't mess with it all the time and let stuff grow. I buy stuff without names as I have never seen a frag look the same color after six plus months usually looks much better. My first tank with corals I could grow SPS but not lps and softies. Last tank they all grew. As to equipment there are some differences but we all have good and bad. I think here lots of people throw a lot of money at their system be it equipment or livestock. When I was making good money I did that now I look at everything and say will it be better for my system or is that coral or fish what I really have to have. Some coral suppliers sell the same frags with and without names for different prices. Don't expect a frag to look the same look at the colony. I find it hard to believe some dealers will call a frag with 3-4 branches a colony as a colony use to be about the size of my fist.

 

[Reeffragger]

As a German born but US citizen livimg in the usa for 30 years. Ill tell you one thing, The things aome of you guys are saying ( americans want it first so we buy it before someone) is kimda offensive.

My tank is mixed. While i dont just put plugs all over the place i actually break my corals off my plugs and try to position them as best i can.. I have 70+ corals in my tank. All mixed.. sps/lps softies leathers.. whatever i have it all, some more then others.

I dont care about just having that acropora only tank or lps only tank. I buy what catchs my eye and looks nice. Not ( i buy because i CAN OR because i WANT IT BEFORE ANYONE ELSE) such a stupid generalization you guys are spewing.

I dont care what anyone thinks of my tank lol. If you think having a billion different corals is ugly thats on you. The reef isnt exactly all 1 coral anyway..

The ONLY right answer someone mentioned is because the tanks with plugs youre looking at arent old tanks. My tank is only 1 1.2 years old but ive gone through hyposalinity twice and moving corals twice so i had stunted growths. Only in the laat 6 months have they really grown.

But i feel youre judging older tanks vs newer tanks here. The only thing i do agree with are the plug thing.. I do find it very ugly when people put 20 different corals ON plugs on the rocks. I did that the first maybe month.. then i decided it was ugly and now i break em off saving as much as i can and gluing them to the rock to look more natural.

 

[KimG]

As a German born but US citizen livimg in the usa for 30 years. Ill tell you one thing, The things aome of you guys are saying ( americans want it first so we buy it before someone) is kimda offensive.

My tank is mixed. While i dont just put plugs all over the place i actually break my corals off my plugs and try to position them as best i can.. I have 70+ corals in my tank. All mixed.. sps/lps softies leathers.. whatever i have it all, some more then others.

I dont care about just having that acropora only tank or lps only tank. I buy what catchs my eye and looks nice. Not ( i buy because i CAN OR because i WANT IT BEFORE ANYONE ELSE) such a stupid generalization you guys are spewing.

I dont care what anyone thinks of my tank lol. If you think having a billion different corals is ugly thats on you. The reef isnt exactly all 1 coral anyway..

The ONLY right answer someone mentioned is because the tanks with plugs youre looking at arent old tanks. My tank is only 1 1.2 years old but ive gone through hyposalinity twice and moving corals twice so i had stunted growths. Only in the laat 6 months have they really grown.

But i feel youre judging older tanks vs newer tanks here. The only thing i do agree with are the plug thing.. I do find it very ugly when people put 20 different corals ON plugs on the rocks. I did that the first maybe month.. then i decided it was ugly and now i break em off saving as much as i can and gluing them to the rock to look more natural.

Hi Reeffragger
I don't think anyone meant to be insulting. Nor does anyone thinks that all Americans run acropora only tanks, or only have high end corals or any of the things we said before. Furthermore, of course plenty of people in this side of the Atlantic run tanks in the exact same way.

However, it is also true that you see some of this things more as a trend in America and much more rare in Europe (high end acros for 600$ per half inch, live sales, even financing options to buy high end corals, don't think that is a possibility in most places around here).

Having said all this, some of most fantastic tanks I have seen lately are from America, and some of the "stick gardens" with a population density rivaling NYC, that will grow in to each others fast, completely blow me away, even doe I would not build it for me.

As for the jokes, again, they were as a general funny comment and not as meant to offend anyone. If they were offensive to you, my apologies.

Plenty of ways to go about this hobby. If a lot of high end corals all bunch together is what people like, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[The cats wrasse]

Man, so many thoughts, and not sure how to put them all into words. Reefkeeping in the USA used to be a lot more like how the OP describes Euro reefkeeping. There was less collector-itis and more reef building. While I totally respect that things change and feel happy that people get joy out of pokeman card collecting tanks, I'm still in the reef building camp.

I think something that has been lost on a lot of recent reefkeepers is that modern reefkeeping was essentially founded in Europe. Anyone who kept marine aquaria in the late 80's and 90's remembers pre-internet reefkeeping. Information spread much more slowly, through monthly publications and books. I was just a middle schooler, but I remember that the Berlin method was highly controversial when it was proposed to American reefkeepers as an alternative to our wet-dry systems. There were some heated debates in the magazines. You see, Berlin hobbyists figured out that letting the live rock and corals manage nutrients was better than a highly aerobic nitrate factory like a wet-dry filter. It's crazy today to think that running a reef with just live rock, protein skimmer, and carbon seemed controversial back then.

Prior to that, a Swiss reefkeeper named Peter Wilkens popularized the idea that we need to replenish Calcium and Alkalinity to grow stony corals more effectively. There's a reason we still refer to it as "Kalkwasser". He also popularized the use of carbon. His book, The Saltwater Aquarium for Tropical Marine Invertebrates, was a game changer.

Kalk stirrers are also called "Nilsen Reactors", thanks to Norwegian Alf Jacob Nilsen. He and Fossa wrote a series of books, called The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium. Those books blew my mind. And if you ever read it, you'll notice there's a big emphasis on the ecosystem and building a reef, versus collecting frags. This hobby came into it's own at the same time I grew from a teen into an adult. So I have a nostalgic sentiment towards the hobby.

Calcium Reactor? They used to be called Löbbecke Reactors, referring to the Löbbecke Museum in Dusseldorf. Someone named Hebbinghaus first described the design in 1994.

Back in the day, there wasn't much in reef aquarium specific lighting available. The Euro guys figured out that a bulb designed for printing was excellent for growing corals and supplementing the full spectrum bulbs available in the hobby. That bulb was the Philips Actinic 03 bulb.

SPS fanatics should give credit to Dietrich Stüber, who had an Acropora hitchhike on some live rock in the 1980's. At the time it was generally believed that Acropora were impossible to keep in captivity. That hitchhiker Acro in Berlin, the Stuber Acropora, was the first documented thriving Acropora in a home aquarium.

Because electricity was cheap in the USA, we used to run these crazy downdraft and beckett skimmers with power hungry pumps, which left the venturi and airstone skimmers in the dust. The Euro folks popularized a more efficient needle-wheel venturi design that is popular today. One of the first popular needle-wheel skimmer brands in the US was called "Euro-Reef"... lol.

Anyway, a lot of this hobby that we take for granted is rooted in European reefkeeping. I'd say one of the major historic contributions out of the USA is algal filtration. Turf scrubbers and Refugiums were popularized by Walter Adey from the Smithsonian. And I think much more great stuff has come out of the USA since then. It's great that there's a market for these things now. I love my AI Hydras and my Neptune Apex. And the availability of microfeeds from folks like Reed Mariculture has helped captive breeding.

To this day, I'm not interested in fruit stand tanks and reefs that are "windex" glow in the dark blue. I'm glad those tanks bring people joy, but older grown in tanks are what excite me. I think growing large mature corals demonstrates skill, patience, and dedication. Showing a collection of rare LE frags just demonstrates you can spend money. I also favor R2R threads that dig into the science side and experimental nature of the hobby. Ironically, those threads tend to come from European folks like @Lasse and others.

For not knowing what to say you said it well

 

[KyOsIBa515]

Basically, I got Americans are capitalist pigs that reef for money out of this thread . However, it’s all good...I am not trying to sound bias to the states as I see all views. However, some of the comments seem a bit unfair to the states.
From my experience most frag racks in the display are due to not having another tank to dedicate frags. Furthermore, as of 98’ the US ;due to executive order, over all other nations has the greatest conservation efforts to protect the reef. Fragging corals is a great way to redistribute beautiful corals without taking them from the reefs (which is encouraged.) Also, we captive breed more fish than any other nation. Not solely for money, rather...once again to protect the ocean.

 

[cancun]

Your right! Europeans have no interest in frags. Americans want frags and deep blue lights

I am an American and hate frags. I buy colonies. On occasion I have bought frags, but not very often. I think Europeans have patience to grow out their tanks. I have a subscriber to my YouTube Reef Channel that has a absolutely beautiful SPS dominated tank. One of the nicest I have seen. No frags anywhere, huge SPS colonies. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Streetcred]

Given the homogenisation of technology and equipment these days and the advancement in common knowledge, I don't think that the old USA vs UK/EU styles comparison is valid any more. We're pretty much all the same ... even those of us in the Antipodes ;-)

 

[Streetcred]

This is exactly the point I wanted to touch on. It seems that Americans have that capitalist mindset, that the minute something is fraggable, it's on a plug and sold for the highest price.

I wonder if the Europeans think of it the same way. I'm sure there are Europeans that think that way, but for example in my city, I know more "hobbyist" with frag tanks and less hobbyist with beautiful tanks. I wonder what that ratio is for them?

Very simplistic opinion and I can't see the relevance of Americans being capitalistic ... so what ? Do I assume that those socialista amongst us frag for free ?

I'm in the Antipodes, we have enthusiasts that like colonies for instant gratification and we have enthusiasts that enjoy the pleasures of growing stuff ... like making your own baby vs adopting an 18 y.o. I'm in the former group, understanding the ways of nature because it interests me ... full colonies don't float my boat but if that's what you like, great! I used to grow from <1" frags to HUGE colonies, then break them up and GIVE them away ... on any Saturday arvo, I'd have a dozen enthusiastic reefers at my home ... that stopped when I discovered that some of the buggers were taking my FREE frags and selling them. After that it all went into the bin.

As for buying and fragging colonies ... they're expensive and not many shopfront retailers accommodate fragging as a viable option ... way too expensive and risky against the quick turnover.

Ours is not a cheap hobby so all power to those enterprising youngsters who are will to put in the effort to frag-farm.

 

[Joeg]

If I were to make one generalization between the two groups I'd have to say that European tanks seem to utilize negative space better to create visual depth.

 

[Streetcred]

Ahh gotcha. I was gonna say because I was just thinking how most people don’t even know hydor makes protein skimmers and a bunch of saltwater stuff we won’t see

You can import whatever you like from wherever ... down here in Australia we have a very narrow choice of equipment, so we import the precise equipment privately.

 

[Crustaceon]

I think it’s a difference in interests. Europe is really big on realism, whether it’s a reef tank, model airplane, or whatever else that’s being simulated. To many Europeans, replicating a natural reef environment is the top priority. I could see them not purchasing certain corals because they come from the wrong region and wouldn’t match the species in their tanks. Americans on the other hand have a competitive and artistic nature to them and it shows in our tanks. We want maximum color, movement, shapes and of course, stuff other reefers don’t have. Americans are all about taking things to the max because ‘merica. Neither approach is a bad one.

 

[Streetcred]

Americans also have more of an "aquire stuff attitude" than many other nationalities. I like it and can get it therefore it is mine.
Many places dont have access to the American selection either.
We get first dibs on the glowy fire.

Nonsense ... if you had the market then your importers can bring stock in from anywhere. Here in Australia, our collectors send pretty much everything desirable to the USA for the Greenback and that is their good fortune. Our little market seems to get the scraps from our own GBR and we'd best be happy for that or we'd get nothing. ;-)

 

[vetteguy53081]

I still say they have better water and don’t put all that garbage such as phosphate, chlorine, flouride etc. like we do.

 

[Streetcred]

I think it’s a difference in interests. Europe is really big on realism, whether it’s a reef tank, model airplane, or whatever else that’s being simulated. To many Europeans, replicating a natural reef environment is the top priority. I could see them not purchasing certain corals because they come from the wrong region and wouldn’t match the species in their tanks. Americans on the other hand have a competitive and artistic nature to them and it shows in our tanks. We want maximum color, movement, shapes and of course, stuff other reefers don’t have. Americans are all about taking things to the max because ‘merica. Neither approach is a bad one.

EU reefing started in Germany ... they are fastidious about everything ... I know how it is, my family is Austrian. The rest of the EU and UK are pretty much late to the party save for Saxby and a couple of others.

US reefers of today are no different to any others around the world ... all driven by the same desires ... that's what twitter and FB do. ;-)

 

[DonTavo27]

I agree. We tend to make impulsive buys that we regret a few days later.

 

[CEReefer]

Rather than making a battle on who has it b..etter, I am more interested to the point of not having a decent selection of livestock in the EU.. why is that? How is it possible that no shop ships corals as someone mentioned earlier? Is it a matter of regulation?
Also on another point I was surprised that the EU market doesn’t have anything like Algaebarn/ReefNutrition/Hikari frozen/LRS foods.. what the heck do you feed finicky fishes/filter feeders over there?

 

[Reeffragger]

I am an American and hate frags. I buy colonies. On occasion I have bought frags, but not very often. I think Europeans have patience to grow out their tanks. I have a subscriber to my YouTube Reef Channel that has a absolutely beautiful SPS dominated tank. One of the nicest I have seen. No frags anywhere, huge SPS colonies. Just my 2 cents.

Yea latetly ive been skipping frags and getting colonies.. like my green bubble coral the size of a small pizza box.. and a teal pocilipora colony bout cantalope sized and same with a teal.blue colored candycane colony.

I want to buy this captain america favia colony too its about 200$ good size about 8 inchs long and 5 inchs wide. But im broke right now. Because i bought some cough frags lol.. gah..

 

[Alistairn1]

We have the same thing in the planted tank world. The grass is always greener on the other side. But it really always isn’t.

There’s probably euros saying the same thing You said about them, only about us.

One thing I’d like to say from only being in this for the past 4 years is that there is greater support from what I’ve found on American forums and especially when it comes to parameters, testing, pro’s/con’s and owe most of my thanks to BRStv, Tidal gardens, fish of hex! I do watch a few from here. Like Aaron’s aquarium and Reef dork but for tried and tested beginner setup I found you guys over the pond a lot easier to understand when it came to setup. My local RS “Aqualush” have been fantastic with knowledge and quality of fish/coral/supplies. One lesson I’ve got out of this which I fell fool too is never use a garden centre for anything to do with more than just ....PLANTS.

 

[boacvh]

Well, I am rather new to hobby so can’t really opine, but I’ll say these. Americans you have Paul B and Europeans you have Lasse. That covers two of my biggest idols here on both sides. hope to learn as much as I can from their experience.

 

[The Reefing Scotsman]

I see the gap narrowing between us. There's a definite shift towards tanks jammed full of little glowing frags and blue sand over here now. Fragged themselves if they so much as dare to send a shoot out. Partly to keep them from growing where they aren't wanted, and partly so the owner can recoup some of the money they have "invested" in the original frag.

The American influence is spreading insidiously in Europe.