Ammonium dosing is a bit overrated

[Troylee]

If you can’t keep the easy ones, what makes you think you have a chance with the harder ones?

Huh? It’s doing just fine!

 

[Miami Reef]

Huh? It’s doing just fine!

Nice.

It’s rather unfortunate you weren’t fast enough to make it to the top 3.

 

[rtparty]

Miami and Lee jabbing at each other....now this is a GREAT thread

 

[Troylee]

Nice.

It’s rather unfortunate you weren’t fast enough to make it to the top 3.

Oh don’t you worry shnookems! I placed top 3 in the others you were scared to join!

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I think your argument would work better if it was limited to effectiveness of ammonia dosing for dino, as you seem to have at least observational experience there.

I believe nitrate dosing is actually the newer “flavor of the day”, it didn’t even get that popular in reefing until around 2015 even closer to 2020. Before that, 0/0 was the goal for decades. People weren’t really dosing nitrates on purpose back then, like they do today. Although, clam farms in Palau were dosing Ammonium Nitrate since 1980’s.

Whereas, every tank with fish is already being dosed with ammonia — that’s something we often forget. In nitrogen-limited tanks where phosphate isn’t a problem, the commonly accepted best practice is to feed more rather than just add more nitrates.

About that 0.1–0.2 ppm ammonium number — Is there research saying that’s useless? Because without that, it feels like a made-up opinion. Just because it’s a small number doesn’t mean it’s ineffective. Some elements in reef tanks are dosed in microscopic amounts and are still critical. Look at Moonshiner’s. A lot of elements are used up instantly and have to be dosed daily, otherwise the tank strips them out. You can’t front-load a week’s worth or you’d crash the tank.

Calling it “chasing a moving goalpost” sounds like a negative, but honestly that’s how this hobby works. We literally dose ca, alk, trace to keep up with the uptake. So why is that suddenly a problem when we’re talking about ammonium?

Also, there are tanks running near 0 nitrate and phosphate that still thrive — because they run heavy in, heavy out. Daily ammonium might be the only thing keeping N limitation in check in those setups. Just because something’s used up quickly doesn’t mean it’s not doing anything.

And saying corals don’t use more energy for nitrate than ammonium, while also admitting you haven’t looked at the research, just doesn’t really hold up. There’s already research out there showing ammonium is the preferred nitrogen source because it’s easier for corals and their symbionts to assimilate. That’s why they prefer it.

I am not sure if it exists, but it would be interesting to see a study or an experiment where they would have two tanks one dosed with no3 and po4 and one dosed with ammonia and po4. May be BRS needs to bring back the investigates series.

 

[rtparty]

I think your argument would work better if it was limited to effectiveness of ammonia dosing for dino, as you seem to have at least observational experience there.

I believe nitrate dosing is actually the newer “flavor of the day”, it didn’t even get that popular in reefing until around 2015 even closer to 2020. Before that, 0/0 was the goal for decades. People weren’t really dosing nitrates on purpose back then, like they do today. Although, clam farms in Palau were dosing Ammonium Nitrate since 1980’s.

Whereas, every tank with fish is already being dosed with ammonia — that’s something we often forget. In nitrogen-limited tanks where phosphate isn’t a problem, the commonly accepted best practice is to feed more rather than just add more nitrates.

About that 0.1–0.2 ppm ammonium number — Is there research saying that’s useless? Because without that, it feels like a made-up opinion. Just because it’s a small number doesn’t mean it’s ineffective. Some elements in reef tanks are dosed in microscopic amounts and are still critical. Look at Moonshiner’s. A lot of elements are used up instantly and have to be dosed daily, otherwise the tank strips them out. You can’t front-load a week’s worth or you’d crash the tank.

Calling it “chasing a moving goalpost” sounds like a negative, but honestly that’s how this hobby works. We literally dose ca, alk, trace to keep up with the uptake. So why is that suddenly a problem when we’re talking about ammonium?

Also, there are tanks running near 0 nitrate and phosphate that still thrive — because they run heavy in, heavy out. Daily ammonium might be the only thing keeping N limitation in check in those setups. Just because something’s used up quickly doesn’t mean it’s not doing anything.

And saying corals don’t use more energy for nitrate than ammonium, while also admitting you haven’t looked at the research, just doesn’t really hold up. There’s already research out there showing ammonium is the preferred nitrogen source because it’s easier for corals and their symbionts to assimilate. That’s why they prefer it.

I am not sure if it exists, but it would be interesting to see a study or an experiment where they would have two tanks one dosed with no3 and po4 and one dosed with ammonia and po4. May be BRS needs to bring back the investigates series.

Moonshiners dose a lot of elements that have no use or purpose though even if they think they do

 

[Miami Reef]

Oh don’t you worry shnookems! I placed top 3 in the others you were scared to join!

Nah. They were too full when I asked to join.

I don’t think I’ve seen the words “scared” and “Miami” used in the same sentence before.

Also, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this word.

“shnookems”

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

About that 0.1–0.2 ppm ammonium number — Is there research saying that’s useless? Because without that, it feels like a made-up opinion. Just because it’s a small number doesn’t mean it’s ineffective.

Who are you responding to?

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Who are you responding to?

OP

 

[jonelder68]

Agree ammonia dosing has been touch and go for me so far. I was dosing a lot! To get little to no NO3 readings. Finally coach @Miami Reef said let’s just dose 10ppm worth of sodium nitrate. After that dose it seemed the current 96ml ammonia daily dose would maintain. Until I added in 5 new fish then it skied. A few tester coral but lots of macros so far. The consumption of ammonia would differ by the day. So NO3 was a roller coaster. My NO3 is in the 30’s ppm now and have since stopped dosing. Even after a week NO3 is still not moving. So I believe with the extra fish load and feedings it’s finally finding its equilibrium. The macros were all super happy with ammonia dosing though and never had such bright colors until I started dosing ammonia.

Now if PO4 could find its groove that would be nice

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Moonshiners dose a lot of elements that have no use or purpose though even if they think they do

I wont aruge for the effectiveness of everyting that is dosed by the moonshiners, my point was simply that there are elements in our system which are useful and critical in extremely low concentrations, and arguing that ammonia is nearly useless at even .1 withouth any reason to believe so is not a very convincing argument IMO.

 

[Miami Reef]

OP

I think I was very transparent about my limitations by readily admitting I did not read any studies.

I readily acknowledged corals choose, prefer, and have an easier time assimilating ammonia. I also stated I liked ammonium dosing and would use it once nitrate was detectable.

I acknowledged the real limitations of ammonia dosing based on my experience helping posts and reading threads. It is a fact that it takes longer to raise nitrate with ammonium vs dosing straight nitrate.

I was open to seeing research studies and having a good discussion.


All in all, I think I did a fine job at clearly stating my thesis. I was aware prior to making this thread that it might get a little controversial and may ruffle some feathers.

 

[KStatefan]

I think I was very transparent about my limitations by readily admitting I did not read any studies.

I readily acknowledged corals choose, prefer, and have an easier time assimilating ammonia. I also stated I liked ammonium dosing and would use it once nitrate was detectable.

I acknowledged the real limitations of ammonia dosing based on my experience helping posts and reading threads. It is a fact that it takes longer to raise nitrate with ammonium vs dosing straight nitrate.

I was open to seeing research studies and having a good discussion.


All in all, I think I did a fine job at clearly stating my thesis. I was aware prior to making this thread that it might get a little controversial and may ruffle some feathers.

When you started the with "It’s my opinion" that should have covered it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does anyone actually know how much energy corals waste to convert nitrate into ammonium? I predict it’s far less than we assume.

While the whole story also has to take into account how much energy (if any) organisms use to take up ammonia or nitrate, it is enough energy to supply everything nitrifiers need to live.

Is that important? Don’t know.

When I posted the recipe thread a few years ago, it was not because I expected anyone to detect a difference, but to provide an option.

The fact that some folks note an advantage, and some not or even a disadvantage may reflect the many chemistry and biology differences between reef tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OP

I did not take Miami’s post as saying ammonia dosing was a problem, but that there are both pros and cons which folks might want to consider and discuss. :)

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

started considering urea dosing, which is essentially urine,

No, it's not.
You may as well say water is essentially urine...

 

[Miami Reef]

No, it's not.
You may as well say water is essentially urine...

Human urine contains very little ammonia unless you are very sick. It is mostly urea, and may not be useful for cycling a tank for ammonia processing as opposed to urea cycling, which is not needed or useful.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, it's not.
You may as well say water is essentially urine...

I suppose context matters

While pee is mostly water by weight -- the bulk of the nitrogen contained therein is urea. So I get what he was trying to say even if it was wrong.

 

[Troylee]

The best way to cycle a tank is by peeing in it!

 

[BeanAnimal]

The best way to cycle a tank is by peeing in it!

One of the large clam farms back in the day (that i will not name) used to regularly fertilize their system that way -- story provided first hand by a guest speaker to our club (that I will not name).