Ammonium dosing is a bit overrated

[NautiTang]

The best way to cycle a tank is by peeing in it!

Thats how I started cooking my rock in the 100g stock tank about 8 months ago before dosing ammonia simi-inconsistently thereafter . I didn't have the ammonia yet but had the rock, it how my uncle taught me to cycle tanks when i was a kid in the 90s.

 

[Fish Styx]

I’m just waiting until I read that someone has started “dosing” their tank with pee every morning because it provides all of the nutrients a healthy reef tank needs.

Nitrate (via urea breakdown), ammonium, potassium, sulfate, calcium, magnesium, iodine, iron, manganese, molybdenum, zinc, selenium…

Trace elements. All natural. No additives. Organically filtered. Free. What’s not to like? Just stay away from asparagus.

This is how we kick started our cycles back in the day.

 

[Fish Styx]

The medications excreted.

Run carbon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The second part of my question covers this, doesn’t it? (Or at least replies elsewhere).

If there was a magic tester that tests every second instantaneously what’s in the tank, having NO3 maintain 0.1ppm and never go below 0.1ppm implies corals would be getting all the N they need, no?

If you knew the levels of all N sources corals use, and knew those levels were adequate without nitrate, then there would be no need for any nitrate.

Reality is we cannot measure ammonia, and cannot even hope to quantify the utility of all the different dissolved and particulate organics.

So the answer is yes, but it’s impossible to do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let me also clarify something that might be confusing. Everything a cell (or coral) takes in, becomes harder to do so as the concentration declines. Thus, a coral may have a much easier time getting all the N it needs at a fixed 5 ppm nitrate than at a fixed 0.1 ppm nitrate.

Here’s an analogy that is actually pretty representative of the situation.

Imagine you are in a boat fishing for your family’s dinner. If there are many fish in the water, you might be able to get all you need with a single fishing pole.

But if the number of fish is very low, one pole may get you little or no fish.

Breaking out more and more fishing poles, covering all around the boat may get you what you need.

With even fewer fish around, but still some, even lots of poles may not be enough.

 

[rishma]

Let me also clarify something that might be confusing. Everything a cell (or coral) takes in, becomes harder to do so as the concentration declines. Thus, a coral may have a much easier time getting all the N it needs at a fixed 5 ppm nitrate than at a fixed 0.1 ppm nitrate.

Here’s an analogy that is actually pretty representative of the situation.

Imagine you are in a boat fishing for your family’s dinner. If there are many fish in the water, you might be able to get all you need with a single fishing pole.

But if the number of fish is very low, one pole may get you little or no fish.

Breaking out more and more fishing poles, covering all around the boat may get you what you need.

With even fewer fish around, but still some, even lots of poles may not be enough.

I now know what argument to use next time I try to debate with you about higher phosphate correlating more algae problems

 

[Miami Reef]

I now know what argument to use next time I try to debate with you about higher phosphate correlating more algae problems

I actually agree with this. I know there’s at least 1 study showing how phosphate at 0.5 ppm grew a coral better than 0.2 and 0.09 ppm

If phosphate isn’t limiting at 0.09 ppm, why would increasing it further increase coral growth?

 

[Troylee]

I actually agree with this. I know there’s at least 1 study showing how phosphate at 0.5 ppm grew a coral better than 0.2 and 0.09 ppm

If phosphate isn’t limiting at 0.09 ppm, why would increasing it further increase coral growth?

Because you only know what you’ve read! You’re a newb! Ask @Hans-Werner or @Lou Ekus haha!

 

[rishma]

I actually agree with this. I know there’s at least 1 study showing how phosphate at 0.5 ppm grew a coral better than 0.2 and 0.09 ppm

If phosphate isn’t limiting at 0.09 ppm, why would increasing it further increase coral growth?

Because you only know what you’ve read! You’re a newb! Ask @Hans-Werner or @Lou Ekus haha!

Pots and kettles and all that

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I now know what argument to use next time I try to debate with you about higher phosphate correlating more algae problems

That would be a rationale, but at least for phytoplankton, studies show that above 0.03 ppm or so, phosphate is not limiting to their growth, something else does. :)

 

[rishma]

I now know what argument to use next time I try to debate with you about higher phosphate correlating more algae problems

That would be a rationale, but at least for phytoplankton, studies show that above 0.03 ppm or so, phosphate is not limiting to their growth, something else does. :)

So your saying there’s a chance…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So your saying there’s a chance…

Yes. Something is going to limit algae growth, whether a chemical or light or space competition, or something else, but if a tank has high levels of all of those things, the level where phosphate is the limiting factor will rise.

Do I think typical reef tank algae grow faster in a reef tank at 1 ppm than at 0.5 ppm phosphate? I expect not. That is so far above where they have evolved to get phosphate, and where they have been seen to thrive, that I wouldn’t expect it to be limiting.

If one looks at the effect of concentration on transport uptake ability, such as a phosphate uptake transporter, the curve typically follows something called Michaelis-Mention kinetics, and looks like this, where uptake rises as the concentration rises, and then levels off as the concentration continues to rise. The relative boost to uptake diminishes as concentration gets a lot higher than where the transporter normally shows decent activity. It never gets above 100 in the graph, no matter how high the phosphate gets.

Michaelis-Menten Equation - Interactive Graph - PhysiologyWeb

Michaelis-Menten Equation - Interactive Graph

www.physiologyweb.com

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes. Something is going to limit algae growth, whether a chemical or light or space competition, or something else, but if a tank has high levels of all of those things, the level where phosphate is the limiting factor will rise.

Do I think typical reef tank algae grow faster in a reef tank at 1 ppm than at 0.5 ppm phosphate? I expect not. That is so far above where they have evolved to get phosphate, and where they have been seen to thrive, that I wouldn’t expect it to be limiting.

If one looks at the effect of concentration on transport uptake ability, such as a phosphate uptake transporter, the curve typically follows something called Michaelis-Mention kinetics, and looks like this, where uptake rises as the concentration rises, and then levels off as the concentration continues to rise. The relative boost to uptake diminishes as concentration gets a lot higher than where the transporter normally shows decent activity. It never gets above 100 in the graph, no matter how high the phosphate gets.

Michaelis-Menten Equation - Interactive Graph - PhysiologyWeb

Michaelis-Menten Equation - Interactive Graph

www.physiologyweb.com

I’ve always wondered if there is a point of diminishing returns. I’m thinking something akin to copper; it’s a needed trace element, but too much is toxic. Another example is par. I wonder if there’s a level of phosphate and nitrate where increasing it doesn’t just stop the benefits but also decreases and slows growth.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve always wondered if there is a point of diminishing returns. I’m thinking something akin to copper; it’s a needed trace element, but too much is toxic. Another example is par. I wonder if there’s a level of phosphate and nitrate where increasing it doesn’t just stop the benefits but also decreases and slows growth.

There certainly will be some level at which phosphate starts causing problems,,even if that is limited to things like precipitating iron and limiting it (the DSR method precipitated phosphate with added soluble iron). Since it coats calcium carbonate surfaces, that is certainly a mechanism to inhibit calcification if it makes it to the location where skeletal formation is taking place.

Not sure what levels cause which problems, however.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I stepped in because Troylee mentioned me, thank you @Troylee !

I am not sure whether I already have understood the question, I didn't read the complete thread.

I’ve always wondered if there is a point of diminishing returns. I’m thinking something akin to copper; it’s a needed trace element, but too much is toxic. Another example is par. I wonder if there’s a level of phosphate and nitrate where increasing it doesn’t just stop the benefits but also decreases and slows growth.

There certainly will be some level at which phosphate starts causing problems,,even if that is limited to things like precipitating iron and limiting it (the DSR method precipitated phosphate with added soluble iron). Since it coats calcium carbonate surfaces, that is certainly a mechanism to inhibit calcification if it makes it to the location where skeletal formation is taking place.

Not sure what levels cause which problems, however.

In my opinion this goes into the right direction. I think higher iron concentration even can inhibit coral growth and support algal growth. This could be a kind of tipping point switching conditions from beneficial for corals to beneficial for algae and vice versa. Any measure that limits iron to a low concentration could be helpful. This could be high phosphate or nitrate concentrations and maybe even manganese which may coprecipitate iron.

This is just a theory from my own observations but maybe something to watch and think about.

 

[Miami Reef]

Hmm. I’ve been playing with iron dosing after struggling to grow algae in my turf scrubber. I read it can be limiting to zooxanthellae, too, so I was curious if I’d see a growth response to corals by dosing it.

 

[rtparty]

Because you only know what you’ve read! You’re a newb! Ask @Hans-Werner or @Lou Ekus haha!

Hey Lee! Saw your pic of the month on Facebook with your torch. Great pic you newb

 

[Troylee]

Hey Lee! Saw your pic of the month on Facebook with your torch. Great pic you newb

Haha! Thanks. Yeah that was cool… made the cover for a day or something…

 

[areefer01]

Haha! Thanks. Yeah that was cool… made the cover for a day or something…

I heard through the grapevine that you are switching to Moonshine?

Edit: Teasing - you newb!

 

[Troylee]

I heard through the grapevine that you are switching to Moonshine?

Edit: Teasing - you newb!

Nah that stuff gives me a nasty hangover lol..