Another Angelfish in trouble

[TeraHz]

Got it a week ago from Petco (trying to save as many fish as I can from them :) ). Sitting in a QT tank - just clean water at 77F and an airstone. Didn't eat much for a few days so I hatched some brine shrimp - looked like it ate a bit but still looked skinny.

After 5 days I initiated copper treatment (ramp up) to eradicate ick/velvet. 48hrs later (yesterday) I noticed it's breathing heavily. I thought the copper is irritating its gills, but the fish was swimming fine and behaving normally. I decided to reduce the copper (which had just gone to 2.0ppm) and did a 75% water change. This morning the fish is a lot more lethargic and was just mostly resting behind the heater. Still breathing heavily and looking more sickly. I thought about flukes - Just did a 5min FW dip - the fish spent the entire time laying - I did not see any flukes in the 5min it stayed there. Here is a close-up video of it at the time: Note the white spots on the mouth are air bubbles. The fish is clean (if a bit pale) on the outside.

YT link:

It is now back in the QT tank to wait and see... It's halfway laying on its side, hiding behind the heater again. If I show up it kind of perks up and tries to swim up, but then gives up.

EDIT: I forgot to add I did another 75% WC this morning while it was in the FW bath.

Any ideas?

 

[Ryansi]

Got it a week ago from Petco (trying to save as many fish as I can from them :) ). Sitting in a QT tank - just clean water at 77F and an airstone. Didn't eat much for a few days so I hatched some brine shrimp - looked like it ate a bit but still looked skinny.

After 5 days I initiated copper treatment (ramp up) to eradicate ick/velvet. 48hrs later (yesterday) I noticed it's breathing heavily. I thought the copper is irritating its gills, but the fish was swimming fine and behaving normally. I decided to reduce the copper (which had just gone to 2.0ppm) and did a 75% water change. This morning the fish is a lot more lethargic and was just mostly resting behind the heater. Still breathing heavily and looking more sickly. I thought about flukes - Just did a 5min FW dip - the fish spent the entire time laying - I did not see any flukes in the 5min it stayed there. Here is a close-up video of it at the time: Note the white spots on the mouth are air bubbles. The fish is clean (if a bit pale) on the outside.

It is now back in the QT tank to wait and see... It's halfway laying on its side, hiding behind the heater again. If I show up it kind of perks up and tries to swim up, but then gives up.

Any ideas?

i cant see the video.

 

[fishguy242]

#fishmedic

 

[TeraHz]

i cant see the video.

It's still processing on youtube - will post a YouTube link when it's ready.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Got it a week ago from Petco (trying to save as many fish as I can from them :) ). Sitting in a QT tank - just clean water at 77F and an airstone. Didn't eat much for a few days so I hatched some brine shrimp - looked like it ate a bit but still looked skinny.

After 5 days I initiated copper treatment (ramp up) to eradicate ick/velvet. 48hrs later (yesterday) I noticed it's breathing heavily. I thought the copper is irritating its gills, but the fish was swimming fine and behaving normally. I decided to reduce the copper (which had just gone to 2.0ppm) and did a 75% water change. This morning the fish is a lot more lethargic and was just mostly resting behind the heater. Still breathing heavily and looking more sickly. I thought about flukes - Just did a 5min FW dip - the fish spent the entire time laying - I did not see any flukes in the 5min it stayed there. Here is a close-up video of it at the time: Note the white spots on the mouth are air bubbles. The fish is clean (if a bit pale) on the outside.

It is now back in the QT tank to wait and see... It's halfway laying on its side, hiding behind the heater again. If I show up it kind of perks up and tries to swim up, but then gives up.

EDIT: I forgot to add I did another 75% WC this morning while it was in the FW bath.

Any ideas?

This fish is moribund and may not recover. You mentioned ramping copper. Was it coppersafe or cupramine? Ramping is not recommended as if this fish had any issues, ramping allows a given disease to take hold of a fish and may be true in this case. Signs would be elevated breathing, hiding and loss of color and appetite.
How did you acclimate it and for how long?
The fish has tail nips and a possible bite mark which suggests aggression may have occurred. What other fish was in with it?

 

[TeraHz]

Youtube link is ready:

I just noticed at 0:33 it looks like it caughs and then a tiny white spot comes in the frame. Not sure if it's flukes or just some detritus.

 

[TeraHz]

This fish is moribund and may not recover. You mentioned ramping copper. Was it coppersafe or cupramine? Ramping is not recommended as if this fish had any issues, ramping allows a given disease to take hold of a fish and may be true in this case. Signs would be elevated breathing, hiding and loss of color and appetite.
How did you acclimate it and for how long?
The fish has tail nips and a possible bite mark which suggests aggression may have occurred. What other fish was in with it?

Copper Power. I did 1.5ppm at introduction and 2.0 about 12 hours later.

It was temperature acclimated in the bag (which was at 31ppm) and then put into 33ppm water which is now at 35ppm.

It shares water with a maroon, but it's physically separated from it. It was with other fish in the petstore though.

 

[TeraHz]

1h 45min after the FW dip it is still breathing heavily but is moving around (I've turned off the tank light - this is just little ambient light):

 

[vetteguy53081]

Copper Power. I did 1.5ppm at introduction and 2.0 about 12 hours later.

It was temperature acclimated in the bag (which was at 31ppm) and then put into 33ppm water which is now at 35ppm.

It shares water with a maroon, but it's physically separated from it. It was with other fish in the petstore though.

Yep - Maroon clown will batter this fish to death if given an opportunity - One of the nastiest of clowns.
Glad fish is swimming. Take coppersafe up a little to 2.15 minimum as it does nothing at 1.5 and begins to work at 2.0. Add airstone and monitor ammonia level with a reliable test kit.

 

[TeraHz]

Yep - Maroon clown will batter this fish to death if given an opportunity - One of the nastiest of clowns.
Glad fish is swimming. Take coppersafe up a little to 2.15 minimum as it does nothing at 1.5 and begins to work at 2.0. Add airstone and monitor ammonia level with a reliable test kit.

So you're recommending I restart my copper treatment and do nothing else? You don't think the copper caused the angel to get in this state?

Should I do anything else to try and ease its breathing?

EDIT: rereading your response on ramping up, I get the point now. It should be high enough to start working immediately, not just to irritate the fish and make it even weaker.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So you're recommending I restart my copper treatment and do nothing else? You don't think the copper caused the angel to get in this state?

Should I do anything else to try and ease its breathing?

EDIT: rereading your response on ramping up, I get the point now. It should be high enough to start working immediately, not just to irritate the fish and make it even weaker.

correct with ramping. These fish tolerate coppersafe as long as not high level and the 2.15 is safe . Add airstone as mentioned. How are you testing the coppersafe level?

 

[TeraHz]

correct with ramping. These fish tolerate coppersafe as long as not high level and the 2.15 is safe . Add airstone as mentioned. How are you testing the coppersafe level?

I've had an airstone all this time. Should I add another one?

I'm testing with a Hanna Checker. Just did a test and I'm at 2.11 now.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've had an airstone all this time. Should I add another one?

I'm testing with a Hanna Checker. Just did a test and I'm at 2.11 now.

One stone sufficient and good on Hanna - I trust it

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Got it a week ago from Petco (trying to save as many fish as I can from them :) ). Sitting in a QT tank - just clean water at 77F and an airstone. Didn't eat much for a few days so I hatched some brine shrimp - looked like it ate a bit but still looked skinny.

After 5 days I initiated copper treatment (ramp up) to eradicate ick/velvet. 48hrs later (yesterday) I noticed it's breathing heavily. I thought the copper is irritating its gills, but the fish was swimming fine and behaving normally. I decided to reduce the copper (which had just gone to 2.0ppm) and did a 75% water change. This morning the fish is a lot more lethargic and was just mostly resting behind the heater. Still breathing heavily and looking more sickly. I thought about flukes - Just did a 5min FW dip - the fish spent the entire time laying - I did not see any flukes in the 5min it stayed there. Here is a close-up video of it at the time: Note the white spots on the mouth are air bubbles. The fish is clean (if a bit pale) on the outside.

YT link:

It is now back in the QT tank to wait and see... It's halfway laying on its side, hiding behind the heater again. If I show up it kind of perks up and tries to swim up, but then gives up.

EDIT: I forgot to add I did another 75% WC this morning while it was in the FW bath.

Any ideas?

I can see the video. I agree, this fish is moribund, actively dying, you won't be able to save it, sorry!

I presume you are using coppersafe or copper power? It is not advisable to wait too long before starting copper, and then, don't take longer than 24 hours to ramp up (that is old advice for ionic copper, not amine chelated copper like you are using). With Petco fish, I would want to start treatments right away.

As far as the fluke issue - you can only see one type of fluke in the dip water (Neobenedenia) the others are too small to see without a microscope.

I wondered if the spots around the mouth were air bubbles, but I see some spots on the clear pectoral fin, are they air bubbles also?

 

[TeraHz]

Thank you both - fwiw I didn't (and still don't) think I'll be able to save it. But at least wanted to figure out what I did wrong. I did use Copper Power.

Yes, all white spots are bubbles, I blew them off with a turkey baster after I saw them in the video.

I suppose the maroon will soon have the full 10G tank to itself...

 

[TeraHz]

4hr update. It's still breathing heavily and doesn't look calm. Not taking food but I never saw it eat well either. Copper Power is stable at 2.2ppm, no ammonia, temp is at 78F.

 

[Jekyl]

If you haven't seen it yet here is the write up Jay did on quarantine procedure. Maybe there's some info that will help you along the way.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

4hr update. It's still breathing heavily and doesn't look calm. Not taking food but I never saw it eat well either. Copper Power is stable at 2.2ppm, no ammonia, temp is at 78F.

Oh - in this video I can clearly see that the fish is terribly emaciated. Fish don't have much stored fat, so when they are lacking in calories for a long time, they digest their muscles for energy (that's why the angel looks so thin behind its head). Another thing that happens is that they use their liver for energy. That in turn causes liver failure, which also causes rapid breathing and lethargy.

 

[TeraHz]

Oh - in this video I can clearly see that the fish is terribly emaciated. Fish don't have much stored fat, so when they are lacking in calories for a long time, they digest their muscles for energy (that's why the angel looks so thin behind its head). Another thing that happens is that they use their liver for energy. That in turn causes liver failure, which also causes rapid breathing and lethargy.

Yeah, it was never super healthy (Petco after all... ) I never really saw it eat well - even when I hatched brine shrimp. It never tried nori or other foods.

It's no longer swimming - should I just euthanize it and end its misery?

 

[TeraHz]

So I have concluded that both the FW dip and the copper are stressful enough for it to not want to swim.
Soon after the video above, the fish went on its side and never tried to swim again. A couple of hours ago I decided to pull it out of the copper tank and put it in a small specimen box with fresh SW just to give it a closer inspection one final time. To my surprise, the fish is swimming again... And hasn't stopped. I added a small airstone. I guess if it makes it through the night, I'll move it into its own 10g tank without copper and try every possible food I can think of to see if it will take anything (clamps, mysis, worms, pods, brine shrimp, seaweed...). I still doubt it will make it, but until it's swimming, I'll keep trying.

Time for bed.