Apollo LED Issue

redfishbluefish

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Boy, do I have my panties in a bunch!!!


I've been wondering why my corals haven't had that pop they use to have. Well I think I now know why.


The future son-in-law was closely examining the Apollo LED's I have over my 90 (because he believes he can build them for cheap....he's a Stevens Tech electrical student), and noticed some of the blues looked to have a blackened crust on them. Note the blues only were on. He also noted that some of the other colors (that weren't on yet), the led looked like it had melted. Here are some pictures.... that aren't that great because of the bright lighting.


Here are the blackened blues:











And here is one of the other colors that's not ON yet...and you can see it has melted:







Are there any other Apollo users out there....and are you seeing this same thing?


Not sure what I am going to do.....but I'm steaming!
 

kyo7878

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wow, I'm speechless...
Just a thought, is the cooling fan working? I have used 3 fixtures from Apollo for roughly 2 years without any major issue, I did notice those cooling fans collect quite a bit of dust that needs cleaning every so often.
Apollo Reef LED has gone out of business, homepage is no longer available. Perhaps your son in law can help replace the LEDs?
 
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redfishbluefish

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Thanks for the response.


I've pulled one of my Apollo's off the tank and temporarily replaced it with an old TaoTronics. First thing I noticed was that the corals popped with the TaoTronics. With this Apollo, one of the three fans was not working. Opened up the case and pulled out the LED board. Noticed that the glass protective cover showed burn marks on it. It was now very clear that every blue LED (all 36) were toast. Note that there are two circuits (power supplies)....one predominately blue, the other predominately white with a fair number of blues (10). Again, all blues were toasted. All of the whites (15) were fine as were the reds (4). In addition, the three blue moonlights were fine.


Here's a picture of the "blue" circuit turned ON:







Here's a picture of the "white" circuit turned ON. The toasted blue LEDs are in rows 2 and 4.





Prior to pulling off the LEDs, my resident electronics expert thinks he knows what the problem was. He doesn't feel the one fan not working was the issue. I have a second Apollo with all three fans working and that also has some burnt LEDs. He believes there is too much current for the blue LEDs and that's what cooked them. Blues are not rated as high as the whites, but he believes Apollo is pushing the higher amperage throught the blues. It might be the reason these things had killer PAR over other 55 LED units when I purchase them. He's in the process of pulling this thing apart and testing it right now.
 
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redfishbluefish

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I know you can't judge the biological effectiveness on light by what our eye sees, but here's a full tank shot with the TaoTronics on the left and the Apollo on the right....blue lights only.....white balanced.









I've found THIS on Amazon....50 blue (453 nm) for $20.....and these look to be the exact dimensions of the ones on there now. Just don't know enough if these would be the "right" blue. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

kyo7878

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Prior to pulling off the LEDs, my resident electronics expert thinks he knows what the problem was. He doesn't feel the one fan not working was the issue. I have a second Apollo with all three fans working and that also has some burnt LEDs. He believes there is too much current for the blue LEDs and that's what cooked them. Blues are not rated as high as the whites, but he believes Apollo is pushing the higher amperage throught the blues. It might be the reason these things had killer PAR over other 55 LED units when I purchase them. He's in the process of pulling this thing apart and testing it right now.

This is a great information, I never thought the blues would be running at higher amperage. Now come to think of it I had one fixture with blues failed in about a year or so, whites & moon light turn on fine but the blues does not (mine are just blue n whites). Luckily for me, it was repaired under warranty and according to them it was the blue led 'driver' that had failed.

Hopefully some other member with more experience could chime in and help you with the repair.:smile:
 
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redfishbluefish

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This is a great information, I never thought the blues would be running at higher amperage. Now come to think of it I had one fixture with blues failed in about a year or so, whites & moon light turn on fine but the blues does not (mine are just blue n whites). Luckily for me, it was repaired under warranty and according to them it was the blue led 'driver' that had failed.

Hopefully some other member with more experience could chime in and help you with the repair.:smile:


It's not that they are running at higher amperage....it's that they are not rated to run at higher amperage...while whites are.


Anyway here's whats been found. With the exception of one blue LED, the blues are running at 3.4 volts. The one blue, for some reason, is running at 3.71 volts. Of the few blues that were pulled off, they are running at 550mA. Now I've been told with Bridgelux LEDs that they are rated for 700mA, but prefer 500mA. So I'm guessing with these no-name LEDs, the 550 might be slightly pushing it.


Now here's where I'm having the real problem....sourcing 80mm x 25mm fans at 12V and 0.1 amps. What concerns me is the amp rating on the fan, not knowing how many amps I have to play with. That's why I'm specifically looking for the exact 0.1A as the original. All the fan sites I've been on, most don't mention amps.


The second sourcing problem is thermal grease....it only comes in a couple gram syringes. Now I know I don't need much, but there has got to be slightly larger quantities available.....IT'S GREASE!!!
 
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redfishbluefish

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This issue with the Apollo light was without question a heat transfer problem. What also could have contributed to the LED failure was the quality of the blue LEDs.


The white and red LEDs survived unscathed. All the blues on either circuit were fried.


The LEDs were solder/attached to the flat aluminum plate. There was thermal grease used between the LED and aluminum plate.... a very small amount. This aluminum plate was then attached to two finned aluminum heat exchangers on the top side. Between these pieces of aluminum was thermal grease as well, but was not continuous. Sorry it's out of focus, but you can still see the white thermal grease on the back side of one of the finned cooling blocks....and there are "open" spots.







Now what also rips my shorts is that, other than the fans themself and the moonlight driver, nothing has a label or identification marking on them......specifically, the two main LED drivers, and the small driver for the three fans.....nothing to identify how many volts and/or output amperage. This has made finding a replacement fan much more difficult. If I knew the output amperage I could potentially get a better fan (more flow), because, for the most part, increase power consumption means increased amount of air flow (CFM). So right now, not knowing the information about the power supply, I'm stuck picking a 0.1A fan. I'd prefer more, but can't take the chance.


 

kyo7878

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This issue with the Apollo light was without question a heat transfer problem. What also could have contributed to the LED failure was the quality of the blue LEDs.


The white and red LEDs survived unscathed. All the blues on either circuit were fried.


The LEDs were solder/attached to the flat aluminum plate. There was thermal grease used between the LED and aluminum plate.... a very small amount. This aluminum plate was then attached to two finned aluminum heat exchangers on the top side. Between these pieces of aluminum was thermal grease as well, but was not continuous. Sorry it's out of focus, but you can still see the white thermal grease on the back side of one of the finned cooling blocks....and there are "open" spots.



Now what also rips my shorts is that, other than the fans themself and the moonlight driver, nothing has a label or identification marking on them......specifically, the two main LED drivers, and the small driver for the three fans.....nothing to identify how many volts and/or output amperage. This has made finding a replacement fan much more difficult. If I knew the output amperage I could potentially get a better fan (more flow), because, for the most part, increase power consumption means increased amount of air flow (CFM). So right now, not knowing the information about the power supply, I'm stuck picking a 0.1A fan. I'd prefer more, but can't take the chance.
Thanks for sharing! Seems like Apollo isn't much better than those Chinese Ebay lights... and we paid quite a bit more for them!:frusty:
I guess this is why they have gone out of business...
 
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redfishbluefish

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Thanks for sharing! Seems like Apollo isn't much better than those Chinese Ebay lights... and we paid quite a bit more for them!:frusty:
I guess this is why they have gone out of business...


Without question they are loaded with Chinese components. But the difference between a "Chinese" fixture and an Apollo is the support you got from the company. I knew the owner and he would bend over backwards to help his customers. This light I'm talking about was custom built for me. A friend was an early Apex user and worked with Apollo to have them be fully compatable with the controller. The company was progressive and was always changing to fit the needs of their customers and technology. And by the way, they went out of business because of medical issues.
 
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redfishbluefish

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Here is where my head is at right now.....do I spend the money to fix this three year old light fixture or do I put it towards a new light. I'm not sure if the cause of the problem is cured, so fixing what is broken might just happen again. Here is an estimate of expenses:


Fan $8 - $12
LEDs $20
Thermal Grease $10 - $15
Extraneous materials $3 - $5


So the the total is $41 to $52
 

kyo7878

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Without question they are loaded with Chinese components. But the difference between a "Chinese" fixture and an Apollo is the support you got from the company. I knew the owner and he would bend over backwards to help his customers. This light I'm talking about was custom built for me. A friend was an early Apex user and worked with Apollo to have them be fully compatable with the controller. The company was progressive and was always changing to fit the needs of their customers and technology. And by the way, they went out of business because of medical issues.

My apologies if I sounded offensive toward your friend and wish him a speedy recovery. I had experienced their outstanding customer service myself so I have no doubt they'll bend backwards to help their customer. It is just that as a business owner myself, I would not chose to use cheap component in the first place.

After seeing your incident I'm some what worried about using the lights again, what if it caught on fire when no one is home...

I would be looking at new lights if I was in your shoes~:smile:
 

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Had the same problem.. One caught on fire and ended up in my sink and then into my yard.. Luckily I was home.. Second one I used over my sump for a while and the white leds did the same thing.. I believe it was a cheap set of drivers they used at some point sending too much power through.. When the one caught on fire I heard a few of the leds actually make a. Pop and sizzle.. Thats when I went to investigate.. Don't try and fix.. Take the loss and replace.. I've since switched to Kessil for display and ocean revive for my fuge.. Like both!! Good luck
 
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redfishbluefish

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I've done quite a bit of digging and the one thing that bothered me was the fact that there are loads and loads of the same type fixtures out there.....55, 3 watt LEDs running at about 2 watts....and these other fixtures don't have this issue. So what I eventually discovered (from a plant grow site) was the claim that Apollo used a low quality thermal compound which caused poor heat exchange and therefore the overheating of their LEDs. This makes perfect sense seeing the exact same design working and the Apollos not. My plan now is to get quality thermal compound and redo the LEDs and the interface between the fins and plate aluminum.
 
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redfishbluefish

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The trigger has been pulled.....I've order the stuff needed to fix this fixture. Actual costs (tax not included)


50 Blue Leds - $19.99
Noctua NT-H1 Thermal Compound - $6.99
Arctic Silver 5 (2 pack) - $10.47


So the materials costs (minus tax) to fix the fixture comes to $37.45....sounds reasonable...right? Note that I still need to pick a fan....worst case, Best Buy has 0.1 A fans for $6.99.


Now the miscellaneous costs got a bit higher than expected, considering the purchase of a new soldering iron. I figure I deserved it because the Smithsonian might be interested in my current iron (Yes, this is my soldering iron):





Great for soldering 12 guage wire, but not so good with micro-electronics....which they didn't have when this was purchased. Also the reason I needed to buy solder....the one pound spool I have is very thick...too thick for microelectronics. So here's what I purchased:


Aoyou Soldering Iron $29.99
Solder Sucker $5.50
60/40 rosin 0.032 solder (1.8 oz) $8.75


So my miscellaneous costs come to $44.24 (I predicted $3-$5...a little off)




All ordered with Amazon Prime, so should all be here by midweek.
 
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redfishbluefish

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A ReefBreeders? Why did yours overheat? Are all fans working?

Anyway, I ordered everything with Amazon, originally stating, when the order was places, that all would be in within four days. The following day the LEDs were listed as arriving between April 16 and May 4. So I’m guessing these are coming from China. Just going to have to wait. All other stuff ordered has arrived. I’ll definitely update when the LEDs arrive. Thanks for asking.


If your fixture uses LED beads, THESE are the beads I’ve ordered.
 

hart24601

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Just FYI all 3 of my reefbreeder value fixtures RB LEDs all burnt in under 2 years. I ran them at 100%, but they are suppose to be 3w LEDs that run at 2W max and apex said the fixtures never drew over 100W, so they were running a bit under 2W/LED. Sold them to a friend that has planted tanks for cheap.
 
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redfishbluefish

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While I await the arrival of the new blue LED beads from China, the 36 fried-to-a-crisp LEDs were removed from the board. Here's what a pile of burnt LEDs looks like:







And here's the board with the thermal compound removed by using isopropyl alcohol.







So now I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs while I wait for the new LED beads to arrive. Amazon now says they will be here between April 16 and May 4.
 
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redfishbluefish

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Time for an update......the LED beads arrived:






Installing the new LED's was cake. Used the Noctua NT-H1 thermal compound between the LED and the flat aluminum plate. However, having sufficient thermal compound for between the finned aluminum and flat plate became an issue. I originally purchased two syringes of Arctic Silver 5 (3.5 g per syringe), thinking that I could use one on this fixture and the other on the second fixture, that also needed some new LED's. Well that wasn't the case. To review, the original thermal paste was extremely poorly applied. Here is one finned plate removed and you can see that maybe, at best, 20 percent of the plate is in thermal contact with the flat plate. THAT STINKS!







This is a major problem. If you own an Apollo fixture I'd highly recommend that you open it up, pull off the finned plates, clean off the original thermal compound and replace it with a new thermal compound that completely contacts the flat plate. (And I wouldn't use Arctic Silver 5.....you'll find out why shortly).


So the two Arctic Silver 5 syringes weren't even enough to partically cover the one fixture. So I ordered two more larger syringes (12 g per syringe), for a little under $30.....so now, just for the finned aluminum, I've spent about $40 for thermal compound! Again, now I thought enought for the two fixtures......NOT! So now this quantity of Arctic Silver 5 was enough for the one fixture with a little left over. TOO EXPENSIVE. So I've now found that Arctic Silver makes a compound that does not contain silver, for a fraction of the cost.....and has very similar thermal properties. DOH! Arctic Silver Ceramique 2 is fraction of the cost. So for the other fixture I need to repair, I've ordered enough to do the finned aluminum on that fixture.....for about $7. Kick me!


In addition, the one fan that wasn't working was replaced with a fan from Best Buy (the Insignia) for $7.






The fixture was returned to the tank and is looking fantastic! The other Apollo was now removed to be inspected. More to come.
 
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redfishbluefish

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Well I opened up the second Apollo, thinking that I only had maybe 15 LED's to replace. Found that all the blue LEDs (40 of them) were melted. The LEDs would still light, but the lens portions were melted off. Here's the entire board, where you can see the 40 charred LEDs, while the 15 white ones are fine (although one white is not lighting for some reason.)



(SORRY, YOU CAN'T SEE THE ABOVE PHOTO BECAUSE THE NANNY FILTERS TOOK OUT THREE LITTLE LETTERS THAT ARE AN ACRONYM FOR A NO-NO)


And here's a close up of a burnt LED, where you can see the "lens" is just gone.






So I just placed another order for 50 more LEDs....which are coming from China, and will take a number of weeks to get here. In the mean time, I've un-soldered all the burnt blues and cleaned off the old compound.


Not surprisingly, when I pull off the aluminum cooling fins on the back of the plate, the thermal compound was grossly insufficient and very poorly distributed. I'm pretty sure this is a big reason for the melting of these LEDs.







I'm going to repeat, for any other Apollo owners out there.......Open up your fixture(s) and pull off the aluminum fins, clean off the original compound and replace with new compound. For this second fixture I'm using THIS compound....Arctic Silver Ceramique 2. I believe a single syringe (25 g) of this particular compound would do one fixture. I'll find out soon enough.
 
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