Aquaforest balling

[Beats001]

Hi,

I am struggling to understand the balling method, specifically the part where it is recommended to to add equal amounts of 1,2 and 3.

So currently I am dosing 48ml per day of the KH buffer.
I don't dose Mag nor Calcium currently. I have just been doing water changes to keep these up.

My Mag and CA, are used very slow. So that being said, if I was to dose 48ml of the other solutions, wouldn't my CA and Mag go through the roof?

I am confused by this.

Also is strong A and B proportionate to Calcium consumption?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Hi,

I am struggling to understand the balling method, specifically the part where it is recommended to to add equal amounts of 1,2 and 3.

So currently I am dosing 48ml per day of the KH buffer.
I don't dose Mag nor Calcium currently. I have just been doing water changes to keep these up.

My Mag and CA, are used very slow. So that being said, if I was to dose 48ml of the other solutions, wouldn't my CA and Mag go through the roof?

I am confused by this.

Also is strong A and B proportionate to Calcium consumption?

Thanks in advance.

I'm never did a balling method, so let's see if someone can chime in.

#reefsquad?

#mods do we need to move this to chemistry forum?

 

[Sherman]

I just dose equal 1,2,and 3.
Any imbalance you dose the imbalance separately
Eg. CA lower then recomended. Additional dose Aquaforest Calcium.

 

[rkpetersen]

Please give your numbers, if you'd like we can look at them. Also tell us more about what's in your tank and how it's doing.

The basic idea of Balling, and basic two-part dosing too, is that the concentrations of the calcium component and the alk component are such that incorporation of calcium carbonate into coral skeletons will use up identical quantities of the three (or two) solutions. So once balance is achieved, theoretically you can maintain this by using equal quantities of both calcium and alk components. Balling adds trace elements in different ways, and also mag which might work in the same ratio as the other two but this isn't as set in stone since the amount of mag incorporated into coral skeletons can vary. For example monti's seem to use a lot.

So Balling when using equal parts, as well as calcium reactors and kalkwasser, are all balanced supplements. Which is great. Except if you're not already in balance. This is where using different amounts of the two two-part components can help get you back into balance.

However keep this in mind. Just because the two components, calcium and alkalinity, are used in a certain proportion by growing corals, doesn't mean that they exist in these same proportional concentrations in sea water. Far from it! There's a lot more calcium in sea water and our tanks. For example, using up 3 dKH of alk only uses 21 ppm of calcium. So you can see that you could exhaust absolutely all the alk in your system and barely touch the calcium level as a result. This is also the reason why alk is the more volatile component with growing corals, so most people watch alk closely and calcium not so much. This is also why you can dose more of the calcium and not see your level go through the roof; because the actual amount of calcium in that component results in a relatively small change in the measured value compared to an equal volume of the alk component.

 

[Anirban]

If you are mixing AF components by yourself then you can change the amount of Ca and Mg according to your need to the mix. Then although you will be dosing the same amount but your Ca and Mg will not run higher than you like.

 

[jsker]

I would not be too concerned until you have the alk balanced. Once your alk is balanced start inching up your Ca and Mg, this will take time. I do not dose 1+2+3+ the exact same but very close;).

As @Anirban stated mixing your own recipe you will dose much less of the components.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Hi,

I am struggling to understand the balling method, specifically the part where it is recommended to to add equal amounts of 1,2 and 3.

So currently I am dosing 48ml per day of the KH buffer.
I don't dose Mag nor Calcium currently. I have just been doing water changes to keep these up.

My Mag and CA, are used very slow. So that being said, if I was to dose 48ml of the other solutions, wouldn't my CA and Mag go through the roof?

I am confused by this.

Also is strong A and B proportionate to Calcium consumption?

Thanks in advance.

I use AF.

Component 1 is ....... calcium chloride - to maintain calcium levels. Chloride is left over after the calcifying organisms use the calcium.
Component 2 is ...... sodium bi-carbonate - to maintain alkalinity. Sodium is left over after the calcifying organisms use the carbonates.
There is also magnesium chloride & potassium chloride in the mix.
So the proportion of sodium chloride as a salt in the water increases as a result.

To prevent this sodium chloride imbalance non sodium chloride salts are also added - Component 3 'Reef Mineral Salts'.
The non sodium chloride salts (Reef Mineral Salts) are - Magnesium sulphate, Calcium sulphate, & Potassium sulphate.

The 3 Components can be bought pre-mixed or mix yourself. They are mixed in a proportion equal to the ratio that calcifying organisms remove them from the water.
So equal parts of each is dosed.

 

[Beats001]

I use AF.

Component 1 is ....... calcium chloride - to maintain calcium levels. Chloride is left over after the calcifying organisms use the calcium.
Component 2 is ...... sodium bi-carbonate - to maintain alkalinity. Sodium is left over after the calcifying organisms use the carbonates.
There is also magnesium chloride & potassium chloride in the mix.
So the proportion of sodium chloride as a salt in the water increases as a result.

To prevent this sodium chloride imbalance non sodium chloride salts are also added - Component 3 'Reef Mineral Salts'.
The non sodium chloride salts (Reef Mineral Salts) are - Magnesium sulphate, Calcium sulphate, & Potassium sulphate.

The 3 Components can be bought pre-mixed or mix yourself. They are mixed in a proportion equal to the ratio that calcifying organisms remove them from the water.
So equal parts of each is dosed.

Thanks for the reply, but I still don't really get it. Given what you have said then do I also need to dose 48ml of the component 1 and 3? If that is the case then I need to get my Mag and Calcium down to AF range before I start this.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Thanks for the reply, but I still don't really get it. Given what you have said then do I also need to dose 48ml of the component 1 and 3? If that is the case then I need to get my Mag and Calcium down to AF range before I start this.

Can you tell me your figures for alk cal & mag,,, & what test kits you are using to measure them with

PS: I never needed to dose mag prior to using AF,, never did. What I found after using AF was that mag didn't rise none the less.

 

[Beats001]

Can you tell me your figures for alk cal & mag,,, & what test kits you are using to measure them with

PS: I never needed to dose mag prior to using AF,, never did. What I found after using AF was that mag didn't rise none the less.

Hi @Scrubber_steve thank you for the reply, I kinda understand what you are saying, but I don't understand how I rectify my situation. So currently my Alk is about 7.5 I need 48ml per day of the AF KH mix. As recommended by them. E.g. 80g in 1000ml of rodi.
My CA is at about 460, and Mag is about 1500, both quite high.
So I'm thinking of getting the AF salt and bringing params into the AF range, then starting to get the mixes at the right level.
Are you saying I should dose the 48ml of component 1 and 2 at the recommended mix amounts they suggest? in 1000ml of rodi? and that will balance everything?

It doesn't add up in my head. I must be not understanding something key here. If I don't get this, surely there are lots of others that don't too.

p.s. I test KH with the AF test kit, Ca and Mag are done with Salifert.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Ok, so you are saying that your system is removing carbonate from the water but not calcium ?
This seems very unusual as calcifying organisms remove all the elements from the water at a specific ratio of each.

What corals do you have?
Do you have increasing coralline algae?

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Thanks for the reply, but I still don't really get it. Given what you have said then do I also need to dose 48ml of the component 1 and 3? If that is the case then I need to get my Mag and Calcium down to AF range before I start this.

How should that work ? ;)
what about:
- Continue just dosing Alk
- for a certain time - skip dosing ca and Mg , until they lower to normal levels. (This can be different times for Ca and Mg)
- Start dosing Ca, Mg again then.
- Check if your Ca are and Mg Levels raise to fast again. If they do, just reduce the dose of Ca and Mg


Regarding the suggestions to mix different amounts of the salts to your stocksolutions than recommended by AF.
Of course you can do that. You can even reach identical doses of the 3 stock solutions after a certain time.
Anyhow this does not really change anything. Your tank can consume different amounts of Alk vs Ca vs Mg than the ones that are typical.

I would always dose my tank "consumption-orientated". If you don't this might result again either in
- Alk beeing too low
- Ca, Mg maybe shooting through the ceiling
Exactly this is one of the big advantages dosing has among Limewater and Calcium reactors

 

[reefwiser]

Been using the Balling method since Hans Balling developed it years ago. I dose equal amounts based on my Alkalinity testing. It is a balance method so you don't want to play with dosing different amounts of each part. It is the most common method of dosing in Europe and around the world .

 

[Beats001]

I just dose equal 1,2,and 3.
Any imbalance you dose the imbalance separately
Eg. CA lower then recomended. Additional dose Aquaforest Calcium.

Yes I understand this method. I will do the same.
Equal parts of 1,2 and 3 and dose KH and maybe CA separately, dependening on consumption. So its really the component mixture that needs balanced. Kh, CA and Mag will generally need additional dosage dependant on each tanks needs.

 

[Beats001]

Please give your numbers, if you'd like we can look at them. Also tell us more about what's in your tank and how it's doing.

The basic idea of Balling, and basic two-part dosing too, is that the concentrations of the calcium component and the alk component are such that incorporation of calcium carbonate into coral skeletons will use up identical quantities of the three (or two) solutions. So once balance is achieved, theoretically you can maintain this by using equal quantities of both calcium and alk components. Balling adds trace elements in different ways, and also mag which might work in the same ratio as the other two but this isn't as set in stone since the amount of mag incorporated into coral skeletons can vary. For example monti's seem to use a lot.

So Balling when using equal parts, as well as calcium reactors and kalkwasser, are all balanced supplements. Which is great. Except if you're not already in balance. This is where using different amounts of the two two-part components can help get you back into balance.

However keep this in mind. Just because the two components, calcium and alkalinity, are used in a certain proportion by growing corals, doesn't mean that they exist in these same proportional concentrations in sea water. Far from it! There's a lot more calcium in sea water and our tanks. For example, using up 3 dKH of alk only uses 21 ppm of calcium. So you can see that you could exhaust absolutely all the alk in your system and barely touch the calcium level as a result. This is also the reason why alk is the more volatile component with growing corals, so most people watch alk closely and calcium not so much. This is also why you can dose more of the calcium and not see your level go through the roof; because the actual amount of calcium in that component results in a relatively small change in the measured value compared to an equal volume of the alk component.

I dose 48ml of KH buffer from Aqua Forest per day. That's using the recommended 80g in 1000ml of rodi. Currently I don't dose CA nor Mag. Currently my CA is about 460 and Mag is about 1500, From water changes only.
I was going to do what another poster suggested. Basically find the slowest consumption of the 3 components per day. Which will be component 3 with Mag in it. Then whatever that works out to be per day, I will dose the same of the other 2 components. And the dose more KH separately on another doser to keep my All up. Does that make sense to you?
What do you think?

 

[Beats001]

If you are mixing AF components by yourself then you can change the amount of Ca and Mg according to your need to the mix. Then although you will be dosing the same amount but your Ca and Mg will not run higher than you like.

I think that will be my ultimate goal. I am gonna dose equal amounts of the components and dose extras of All, Mag or CA separately to start with. It seems I am dosing equal amounts of the macro elements but not the major elements.

 

[Beats001]

I would not be too concerned until you have the alk balanced. Once your alk is balanced start inching up your Ca and Mg, this will take time. I do not dose 1+2+3+ the exact same but very close;).

As @Anirban stated mixing your own recipe you will dose much less of the components.

See what you think of my reply to earlier posts, to see if you agree.

 

[Beats001]

Ok, so you are saying that your system is removing carbonate from the water but not calcium ?
This seems very unusual as calcifying organisms remove all the elements from the water at a specific ratio of each.

What corals do you have?
Do you have increasing coralline algae?

It seems that way. I only have 3 smallish sps frags a few largish leathers, then zoas, toadstool. I think the fish use a lot of all it seems. I have no coralline. Tank is about 8 months old.

 

[Beats001]

How should that work ? ;)
what about:
- Continue just dosing Alk
- for a certain time - skip dosing ca and Mg , until they lower to normal levels. (This can be different times for Ca and Mg)
- Start dosing Ca, Mg again then.
- Check if your Ca are and Mg Levels raise to fast again. If they do, just reduce the dose of Ca and Mg


Regarding the suggestions to mix different amounts of the salts to your stocksolutions than recommended by AF.
Of course you can do that. You can even reach identical doses of the 3 stock solutions after a certain time.
Anyhow this does not really change anything. Your tank can consume different amounts of Alk vs Ca vs Mg than the ones that are typical.

I would always dose my tank "consumption-orientated". If you don't this might result again either in
- Alk beeing too low
- Ca, Mg maybe shooting through the ceiling
Exactly this is one of the big advantages dosing has among Limewater and Calcium reactors

Yes thanks for your answer. I think key is dosing equal amounts of the components and supplementing what is still lacking.

 

[Beats001]

Been using the Balling method since Hans Balling developed it years ago. I dose equal amounts based on my Alkalinity testing. It is a balance method so you don't want to play with dosing different amounts of each part. It is the most common method of dosing in Europe and around the world .

OK so you make 3 solutions based on the recommendations on the AF powders? E.g. 80g of KH and 5ml of strong C For the component 2. Then the same for components 1 and 3 as recommended to add to 1000 ml of rodi. So I use 48ml per day of Component 2, so I should also dose 48ml of the other components. And based on the balanced chemistry this will not raise CA and Mag. Is that what you are saying/doing?