Are the costs of our hobby discouraging newcomers?

[Mastiffsrule]

After window shopping for livestock a possible topic of discussion occurred to me.

Are costs of the hobby becoming a detractor for potential new reef keepers? We all know it can be done inexpensive or crazy expensive, but that’s cause we know.

My first real tank in the 80,s. was a 55 which after all items inc stand, lights and livestock was less than $800 complete.

Today if I was interested in starting out it is a different story. Walking into an LFS or looking online will quickly shock some. We Would hope research is done before buying. What happens if they see prices starting in the hundreds and don’t bother to go any further and do the research to find out?


Just for fun I pulled these prices within minutes all from 1 site. Obviously not the norm, but if I had no idea about fish I would take 1 look and I would be nice fish, their out of their minds. Let’s go to Denny’s.

Maybe seawitch can do an article on evolution of the hobby if not already done.

$1299.99 $7999.99. $699.99. $2999.99. $599.99. $5499.99

$249.99. $249.99. $229.99. $349.99. $399.99

 

[ZoWhat]

I actually did a pole on the true cost of reefing:

All Told...counting everything you ever bought for Reefing....how much do you estimate you've spent?

The two ppl who voted $500k+..... we sure would like to see pics of your DT my first thought exactly. im over here eating ramen and somebody clicked the 500k+ button? can we please see those tanks? do a whole post about it or hire someone to.

www.reef2reef.com

.....and I believe the sweetspot was btwn $5,000 on the lowend to $20,000+ and up. I agree that most mature reef tanks cost about $10,000

There ain't no way around it, if you do it right...

Yeah.... this ain't your Grandma's goldfish bowl hobby


.

 

[Biokabe]

After window shopping for livestock a possible topic of discussion occurred to me.

Are costs of the hobby becoming a detractor for potential new reef keepers? We all know it can be done inexpensive or crazy expensive, but that’s cause we know.

My first real tank in the 80,s. was a 55 which after all items inc stand, lights and livestock was less than $800 complete.

Today if I was interested in starting out it is a different story. Walking into an LFS or looking online will quickly shock some. We Would hope research is done before buying. What happens if they see prices starting in the hundreds and don’t bother to go any further and do the research to find out?


Just for fun I pulled these prices within minutes all from 1 site. Obviously not the norm, but if I had no idea about fish I would take 1 look and I would be nice fish, their out of their minds. Let’s go to Denny’s.

Maybe seawitch can do an article on evolution of the hobby if not already done.

Honestly, it's not the price of livestock that drives people away. That's what those of us who are already *in* the hobby gripe about. I think most people understand that when it comes to those kind of things, it's like koi, dogs, boats, cars... there's a wide range of different prices targeting different segments of the marketplace. You can buy a koi for $15 or $1.5 million. You can buy a beater car for $500 or a Bugatti Veyron for $2.5 million. A boat can be a simple plastic raft for a $100 or a megayacht for millions.

What drives people from starting in this hobby is the cost of just setting up a box of water in which to put those livestock that may or may not be expensive. Depending on whether you just want a box with fish in it or a fully stocked reef tank, you could be out $5,000 or more before you even put water in the glass box. Try telling someone that you paid over $1,000 for rocks for your aquarium, see how sane they think you are.

 

[Opus]

I would have to say no just based on the number of people in the hobby now compared to 10 to 20 years ago. At least to me it seems like there are a lot more people in the hobby. I still can't believe there were over 7000 people at Aquashella Dallas. I was worried there wouldn't be enough people there to put it on again in 2020. The last MACNA I could find that listed attendance was round 2500.

 

[dopey]

On one hand cost has reduced (I remember power compacts and halides when I was a kid) on the other hand the amount of equipment you "must have" has increased.. resulting in net total being higher..not saying any of it is required but new people will see all these things when researching what to start with.


I also think the normal/median sized tank has increased over the years.I read the other day that a 40 gallon display tank or less is considered a "nano" (it's a sticky in member tank nano section) since the forums jump from nano to quite large tanks..

I think setting up a 20 gal or even 40 breeder to entry level standards of 15 years ago but with today's equipment be cheaper...Id that makes sense..

 

[DeepSouth]

What happens if they see prices starting in the hundreds and don’t bother to go any further and do the research to find out?

Honestly, if they are unwilling to do the research to find out if they can do it cheaper, are they going to do the research to take care of the animals they are entrusted with.

 

[NPRW]

New to reefing here..

In NZ we don't have the best selections. I see Gobies on Liveaquaria for under 20 bucks which are almost 100 bucks here. Most small frags are between 40 and 80 bucks but I'd still call that cheap to be fair. Our market is flooded in the 100-200 bracket which includes a plethora of tangs and angels, even my missus' favorite Flame Angel is only 100 bucks in our market.
While I think the livestock is affordable (comparable to fw over here about 10yrs ago) I will say this:
The price of dry goods is ridiculous! Had I not made my own rock for my next build, it'd be more expensive than all the fish I plan to put in. Don't even get me started on the $1000 led fixture or the $600 skimmer, lol.

Thank god for diy, I've been an advocate of "built not bought" my whole adult life, only this time it's out of necessity. If I had 15k I'd have a sweet 8ft system.

On topic, cost kept me out of the hobby for a long time, but there's so many options out there nowadays you don't need to pour money in, you just get jealous of the ones that do!
6Mths in, still less cost than the last repair I did on my car.

 

[Taxus812]

I guess there are two entry points to consider, new to aquariums and new to saltwater aquariums.

I have had freshwater tanks for 20 years. So I am in the new to saltwater group.

What kept me away from marine was simply I knew they have a high cost and are simply harder to keep. I actually never bothered to go further.

When I did decide to make the switch, I honestly was still caught a bit off guard by the real cost. My 45gal AIO cost me about $2500 for the box of water and all “oh by the way you will need this” equipment. I could get an equivalent freshwater setup (all new) for under $1000 including livestock and plants. ( went new because I didn't know what I needed and an buying from an unknown source for used was a high risk)

So when a new to aquarium shopper sees the ease of care, higher success and dramatically lower starting costs the freshwater tank likely wins.

 

[AZMSGT]

The economy seems to be doing well. Thus there is some disposable income out there. People are willing to try their hand at different things. Reefing in my local area is having a bit of a resurgence. A few new stores, people buying big tanks.
While the costs are high, I see people willing to spend the money. But there is a supply and demand thing too.

Gem tangs, in a very short amount of time the price dropped from $2000-599. High prices don’t mean those items sell for that price.

 

[EMeyer]

Some of the numbers being tossed around here blow my mind.

When we discuss the cost of saltwater aquariums, its important to remember that there are a lot of decisions that affect this. A $100 skimmer basically works as well as a $500 skimmer. And a $100 LED from Amazon basically works as well (in fact, produces higher PAR in many cases) as a $300-$500 LED. [Just without the ability to simulate sunrise thuderstorms in Fiji on your Iphone. ] A $50 Jebao basically works as well as a $200-$300 powerhead. A homemade DIY sump ABSOLUTELY works as well as a fancy schmancy all acrylic $600 sump.

In the same way that a used Hyundai Elentra basically works as well as a 2019 Ferrari. Ten- to a hundred-fold difference in price, but they both get you to and from work in the same amount of time. They both do what you need, the only real difference is the shiny factor.

I think it does a disservice to newcomers that the Ferrari version is presented as the standard expectation. The hobby is as expensive as you make it.

 

[Ross B Reef'n]

I was forced out of hobby due to frequent relocations for my career. Before that, I can remember entire colonies costing less than frags do today. This was well before the indo ban. This is all in regards to livestock.

I've ran nanos that were setup for less than $200's. They just require a lot of work. Biocubes for less than $800, 60 gallons for less than $2k, etcetera.

What's really expensive in our hobby is anything to do with automation. Manufacturers have positioned their products for the consumer buying one of this, and one of that. My current build uses 8 mj1200's for water changing. At $30 a pop, that's already more than the nano I mentioned earlier. Add Apex systems, continuous duty dosing pumps, reefbot, etc., into the mix and you'll have a significant change to your bank account. There's no package deals for the larger aquarium. It's all incremental cost.

If I had to throw a number on my current build, I'd say it's in the 10k range, but that includes about 1k for construction and 1k for plumbing.

 

[RichReef]

I've had several friends who showed huge interest in getting into the hobby. Having a friend like me to mentor them and set up a system for them was a huge plus.

It all goes out the window when they start to shop.

 

[Taxus812]

Some of the numbers being tossed around here blow my mind.

When we discuss the cost of saltwater aquariums, its important to remember that there are a lot of decisions that affect this. A $100 skimmer basically works as well as a $500 skimmer. And a $100 LED from Amazon basically works as well (in fact, produces higher PAR in many cases) as a $300-$500 LED. [Just without the ability to simulate sunrise thuderstorms in Fiji on your Iphone. ] A $50 Jebao basically works as well as a $200-$300 powerhead. A homemade DIY sump ABSOLUTELY works as well as a fancy schmancy all acrylic $600 sump.

In the same way that a used Hyundai Elentra basically works as well as a 2019 Ferrari. Ten- to a hundred-fold difference in price, but they both get you to and from work in the same amount of time. They both do what you need, the only real difference is the shiny factor.

I think it does a disservice to newcomers that the Ferrari version is presented as the standard expectation. The hobby is as expensive as you make it.

I don't want to derail this into how a new reefer could reduce the startup costs. It would be interesting to see the actual end cost comparison for a equivalent tank as the Red Sea Max E-170 using just "low budget" but with equivalent "life support" related functionality (and reliable) equipment. It would have to include everything needed to be ready to add water\rock etc. and start cycling.

I was starting to try and do this as a new reefer with very limited knowledge and started coming near the final cost of the tank. I was worried about fires and failures with the cheep stuff (buy cheep pay twice was the thinking). In the end I decided to buy a known working confutation and buy the red sea package.

 

[andrewkw]

It's an expensive hobby. That being said if you never knew wild colonies were $30-40 as recently as 10 years ago and T5/MH/PC lighting required far less initial cost then high end led it's probably not going to bother you. Depending on how crazy you are about researching the history of costs is probably not going to be the first thing you look up. A new hobbyist now may not realize almost all our corals can from Indonesia just 2 years ago ect.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I think every hobby is expensive i also am a backyard beekeeper.

$250 for bees
$150 for a suit
$150 if you build the hive yourself. Up to $500 if you are not handy.
Another $100 for other odds and ends.

Annually another $200 in care and pest control.

They have hive monitoring devices that are $500 dollars per hive.

If want a cheap hobby buy some ebay binoculars and become a neighborhood birdwatcher. Want to photograph them you’ll need $2000 for the proper lens and camera though [emoji23].

 

[Blutspitze]

I agree with a sentiment seen here a few times - the more work you're willing to do, the cheaper things tend to be. It's fine to have a 5/10 gallon cube for $200-300, but you'll be doing more maintenance and having to watch numbers more closely. Between skimmers, fuges, sumps, QT, lights, rock, sand, and whatever else one desires, it gets very pricy very quick. That said, it seems that it's too easy to spend more overall by just going basic at first. Everyone always wants to expand . Not to mention potentially getting a controller or the like. Much less day to day work, though.

As an aside, I will always detest the fact that damsels are so cheap. "they're a perfect starter fish", we all hear. Well yes, they're hearty, often colorful, forgiving, and inexpensive. They're also the devil incarnate. To this day I regret getting damsels as my first few fish because I eventually had to remove them due to the intense aggression and active killing of new stock.

 

[Ross B Reef'n]

As an aside, I will always detest the fact that damsels are so cheap. "they're a perfect starter fish", we all hear. Well yes, they're hearty, often colorful, forgiving, and inexpensive. They're also the devil incarnate. To this day I regret getting damsels as my first few fish because I eventually had to remove them due to the intense aggression and active killing of new stock.

LoL, yes they are!!!

 

[PYRU]

Without a doubt. This may step on some toes, but its the truth. Sw is portrayed in an elitist light. You constantly have apex, powerheads/pumps with 1k different settings, designer sumps, $600 a pc lighting...the list goes on. All thrown in your face. Its def changed since I was last in it. I'm serious its pretty insane the marketing on sw. I remember it being a lot more down to earth. I think that's whats given rise to the nano craze.

Coral prices have gone off the freaking rails. Buying coral is about as jacked up as paying these ridiculous healthcare costs.

Now with that being said. If you do a little digging you can setup a very manageable smaller setup and get within oh 600-1k of a larger setup. I'm roughly 800 over the cost of my same size fw tank just due to powerheads, skimmer, & lighting.

Its not a dig on anyone if you like all the airplane-ish controls and gadgets do your thing. Its just very in your face if you're coming back or just starting out which definitely puts off someone new

 

[reefwiser]

The problem I am seeing as a long time keeper is that the beginner corals of old the LPS corals are now in the 200 to 300 dollar price range. While you may get a cheap SPS frag that is not a coral for a beginner. The little bits considered frag’s now days is crazy. So easy for failure for a new hobbyist. That they will leave the hobby do to losses.

 

[Rogued_Reefer]

I recently got in the hobby and yes it is expensive AF!! I got a really good deal on a used 75g tank with a wet/dry system and a bunch of extras (heater, return pump, 2 koralia wavemakers, couple nets, water conditioner, Red Sea Coral pro Salt, etc.) for around $300 and I was stoked!! I said to myself “**** yeah I hit the jackpot” then when I started looking at what it would take for me to set it up properly is when I cost started stacking up...

I’ve spent close to $800 so far and got no skimmer, only got 2 clownfish, 1 coral beauty, 3 turbo snails, 1 emerald crab, 1 blue chromis because the 2nd one died yesterday for no apparent reason, and like 10 tiny hermits...

I’m almost out of salt so I’ll need to buy new salt, I want to add corals! But guess what? They’re expensive as ****! Unless I want to just buy a crap load of Xenia [emoji1787]