Are we ruining the hobby???

[Overboard]

Great comments Dr. Mac!

I may have been one of the first "guilty" hobbyists. I fell in love with Tyree's Purple Monster (got on the waiting list and paid the price!) and still love it. It is a slow growing PIA, but I love it. Today, however, the crazy marketing names just don't matter to me. Honestly, I would prefer to simply know if it is a tenuis, millepora, echinata, etc. The marketing hype gets a little old (I am showing my age now) and the "representative" pictures with all the extreme blue LED's (never sure if the photos are really doctored) actually runs me off. I put it in the same class as all the "free testosterone" youth supplements advertised on TV. Even if I really could really use it, I don't believe the snake oil routine.

I am quite pleased with the true progress that has been made with technology, but not sure if it is all "necessary". LED's have really helped manage the heat that used to come off my 400 watt halides. I actually like the controllers, even if they are a little pricey. With a controller and app (and FaceTime), I can have almost any family member help watch my tank if I am out of town.

A few things I miss. Back in 2000, I think fish diseases and coral pests were less likely. I assume that is because the scale of the holding facilities with shared systems probably propagates this stuff like mad. I guess it all had to stop once the industry grew so much, but I really miss live Live Rock (how is there really such a thing as dry live rock?) and colonies of corals that did not die in 2 weeks. PEA has always been a favorite from the very beginning (2000), but I also miss some of the old vendors like Clam's Direct (I think Barry passed away and its great PEA continues to specializes in clams), the REAL Flying Fish Express, and Marine Center in Dallas. Around 2001, I got a a pair of black ocellaris from Dr. Mac that laid eggs every two weeks like clockwork, until I had to break down and sell my livestock and system in 2004.

It is great that PEA (can I still call it Dr. Mac's?) is still around. What a steady force in a changing industry and you have done an incredible job of adapting your business to the world over the years. That is really hard for most of us to do.

Thanks!!

PS - I will be making a rare trip to visit PEA on Monday! Hope you have some clams left!

 

[User1]

PS - I will be making a rare trip to visit PEA on Monday! Hope you have some clams left!

Lucky dog! Would love to visit the place.

Edit: Figure of speech with regards to luck dog part

 

[Biokabe]

Thanks for this, and for reinforcing why you're one of my favorite vendors in the hobby. =)

And I say this as someone who often defends the practices of other vendors - I'm a wholesale salesperson who specializes in dealing with a lot of the smaller mom-and-pop shops, so I have a great deal of sympathy for the challenges that a lot of businesses face. Naming corals, getting as much as you can for a frag - you do what you must to stay afloat.

We as hobbyists, though, are just as guilty for driving that kind of behavior. Your own experience with the "King's Ransom" zoas is a great example. You were trying to sell them as, "A nice blue zoa" for a decent price. We weren't having any of it until you gave it a fancy name. You can sell one 2" frag for $80, or four 1/2" frags for $40 each. We buy them all the same, so why shouldn't you effectively sell the frag for $160 instead of $80? Are you a villain for maximizing your investment, or are we responsible for making you leave money on the table if you don't frag that coral to the limits?

I respect your ethos, and the fact that many of your frags tend to be on the larger side is one of the reasons I often choose to buy from you when I just want to bring some corals in. But if we as hobbyists claim to want more vendors to act like you, at some point we have to vote with our wallets and reward people like you while not rewarding other vendors. Because while I'm sure you don't do what you do just for the money, it's important for everyone to acknowledge that the money matters. If you can't bring in enough to pay your employees, pay your costs, invest in expanding the business, and make sure that you don't starve either, then ultimately you won't be in business any longer, and your market share will be taken by some other vendor, who may or may not be as scrupulous as you.

Part of the problem, I think, is that reefkeeping is only just starting to come into its own. We need to do a better job of promoting more budget-oriented builds, highlighting the beauty of less expensive corals and livestock, and be more focused on the beauty of the hobby instead of the rarity and expense.

Because the truth of the matter is, plenty of the things that make this hobby expensive are unnecessary bells and whistles, and we do ourselves and noobies to the hobby a disservice when we act like the only tanks that matter are SPS-heavy "dream tanks" loaded to the brim with expensive, designer-name corals. You don't need a Radion to have a nice light. You don't need an Apex to keep a good tank. There is very little that our expensive equipment does that we can't replicate ourselves with a little diligence, discipline and work. Does that mean the stuff is pointless? No, of course not. There's something to be said for making reefkeeping easier. But we shouldn't act like an Apex or a Radion or a VorTech is necessary to have a thriving tank, because none of them are.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Very good writing and well said.
That last picture- What are our kids and grandkids going to face with skyrocketing price, retail greed and many regions banning collection of fish and coral ??
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THIS HOBBY GOING FOR GENERATIONS TO COME WITH THESE BEHAVIORS ??

 

[User1]

HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THIS HOBBY GOING FOR GENERATIONS TO COME WITH THESE BEHAVIORS ??

Easy. Hobbyist share.

It is just my opinion mind you but I'd wager we probably don't need to remove as many corals from the Ocean these days. Aquaculture - similar to agriculture and growing food. A lot of hobbyist throw away corals that they trim that others could use. Take care of your yard, plants, shrubs, lawn, trees, etc and it grows. Take care of your reef tank and the corals also grow. Trim the shrubs, mow the lawn is the same as cutting back corals.

Self sustaining it can be. How much I'm not sure. Small business like Pac East, IPSF, and others also help. The rest as I said above is out side my boundaries due to my personal limits. What others do is not up to me or will I judge.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

A rich man's hobby? Elitist?? Really, are you serious?

Well, look at all the threads/posts stating "high-end " corals!

High end??

So, someone puts a stupid designer name on a coral, shoots a pic under all blue LEDs, hypes the heck out of it and it's then magically "high-end "???? Is that about it? Oh, wait, wait, it has lineage! Er, what?? Didn't they all come from the ocean? No, so and so named it first and it has lineage and it's "high-end"! You silly, silly man, those leather corals that sway in the flow, look beautiful, and don't die when you look sideways at 'em are dumb! Those aren't worthy, those aren't "high-end"!

 

[User1]

Please let me know when you have the Yellow Fiji Leather on sale That is at least what it looks like and I am a bit fond of that coral I'm not going to lie.

 

[AquaAmator]

I guess I will chime in here. I left the hobby in 2004 when my job became 80% travel. I have just gotten back into the fray. I'm shocked at the ability to automate so many tasks with a controller. I didn't have an ATO. I had an analog (red dye) thermometer, and some fish and corals that I had no idea if they were compatible or not. I bought live rock and had the fun / excitement / terror of having various hitchhiker species propagate. But none of it was tragic. I had a canopy with T5's. It was hot, but effective. I had bio-balls and a wet / dry sump. I had no idea what I was doing and it was quite fun to try to keep all these animals. I made a few missteps, but I loved it.

I got back into the hobby, and WOW! I can get an ATO? I could even do an automatic water change?!? I have cold light from LED's? All very cool.

OK. Yes, I make a decent living and these things are not budget breakers. I have a little nostalgia for T5s and metal halides. But I also like creating a sunrise and sunset and having variable flows around the tank, and having a PH monitor that keeps my Kalk from killing everything.

I am not drawn to the expensive corals. I have zoas, leather, acans, a bi-color bubble tip, one chalice, clowns, yellow tang, coral beauty. Actually my favorite part of the tank is the interaction between my goby's and pistol shrimp. And second favorite is with the clowns and nem. These are the reasons I stare at my tank at night.

OK. Maybe the hobby has changed. I see mostly benefits. I'll never buy a creature more than $100 for my tank. That means that if things get more expensive, I will buy less.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

It's all good, as they say. "High-end", bread and butter, whatever. I love it all.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[TaylorPilot]

Very good writing and well said.
That last picture- What are our kids and grandkids going to face with skyrocketing price, retail greed and many regions banning collection of fish and coral ??
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THIS HOBBY GOING FOR GENERATIONS TO COME WITH THESE BEHAVIORS ??

Greed isn't the right word. It is called a market. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. If people weren't willing to pay $100s for a frag that is 1/2", then they would have to lower the price. Maybe you aren't willing to pay that for it, but obviously people are. But just because you aren't willing to pay for that "overpriced" coral doesn't mean there aren't plenty of $20 corals you can have and get just as much enjoyment out of it. Heck, if you get really good at it, buy some of those high dollar corals and get your money back out of them when they grow out a little.

I don't care what hobby you are in. There are always a group of people on the high end that are willing to pay a premium to be at the top of the hobby. That is why we have some people listening to music on a $100 sound bar and another group that listens to music on $250,000 speakers connected to a $80,000 turn table. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy music on the sound bar though....

 

[HaloPhenom27]

I've been a marine aquarium hobbyist since 1965. Actually, we did quite well back then at keeping all types of fish, inverts, anemones, etc. I had many tanks and worked at Marine World in the Chicago area. Tanks were beautiful, basic, and most fish lived well. Myself and friends had all sorts of fish that would spawn and it was an enjoyable hobby. I loved seeing fish from all over the world: Pinecone fish from the South China Sea, Purple Tangs from the Red Sea, Clownfish from the Phillipines, fish hand caught by Rodney Jonklaas in the Indian Ocean, chunks of rock with sponges, gorgos, and corals from the Keys, all kinds of inverts, etc. With just a basic understanding of nitrogen cycle, the hobby was fun and relatively inexpensive and accessible to most folks.

Then in the 80s the hobby transformed into reefkeeping with the ability to keep more corals. As time has gone on the hobby progressed from most folks not being able to keep too many different corals and buying colonies to where we are today with designer corals and tiny frags.

In some respects this has been the natural progression, as equipment such as lighting and skimmers, etc. have improved--so has the ability to not only keep but propagate most corals.

When Pacific East Aquaculture started in 1999-2000 we sold lots of colonies and started growing some frags. We described the corals as Blue Acropora or Pink Bird's Nest and that was sufficient. At that time most folks were thrilled to just be able to just keep such corals alive. Naturally, over time we saw many of our customers become vendors as the ability to keep corals became more understood and easier so did the ability to propagate them. This progression was great.

At some point several years ago the number of coral vendors grew exponentially. I recall being one of maybe 3 coral vendors at MACNA in DC years ago to now there are close to a hundred. Things began to change as the industry became more competitive. In order to stand out and sell their corals vendors began using crazy names and prices to create so-called limited editions. Auctions started, and live sales, all in the interest of driving the hype, increasing sales, and profitability. Great, right? It's the American way, right? Good marketing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about this progression, just observing from many years on the inside. But, have we gone too far? Is where we are at now healthy for this hobby/industry? Are we bringing in enough new hobbyists to sustain it all? Have we made this into a rich man's hobby?? $1500 1/2 inch designer Acro frags, 25,000 angelfish, $1000 must have controllers, $800 can't live without LED fixtures, impossibly complicated dosing regimens, etc., etc! Have we killed the joy?

The weekly live sale or Ebay auctions and the endless hype leads to the frenzied hobbyist that is constantly trying to one-up other hobbyists. Tanks filled with tiny frags and the thought by many that if I get the latest designer coral I can grow it out and make a fortune.

But, what about the future of the hobby? Are we making it too complicated, too expensive, too elitist?? Are star polyps, leathers, and bubble corals no longer enough? Of course not, right?

True story: several years ago at a swap, (I use to be a vendor at about 25 a year), I had about 30 frags of really nice blue Zoanthids. Many folks came up to our booth and liked them, but they asked "what's the name"? When I shrugged my shoulders and said blue zoos, they walked away even though they liked the coral. By the early afternoon I became frustrated and started calling them King's Ransom Zoanthids. As the afternoon crowd flocked in we started selling them. Soon I had folks coming up asking if I had any of them King's Ransoms! And indeed, the very same coral that we couldn't sell any, sold out within a couple hours. What did this show me? Obviously I'm really dumb about marketing!! OK, admittedly, I still prefer, to my detriment, to say Blue Acro instead of Rainbow Swirl Atomic Passion Acro. Sure I'd sell more Atomic Passions, but it still gives me an icky feeling. Yeah, I know, I'm just dumb!

So, I know this thread will bring endless responses about how the designer craze is not what most folks want and object to it. But, at the same time I'll see someone ask "ID please, what's the name of this" , and they don't mean Acropora sarmentosa, they want Atomic Passion.

OK, so I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon. Maybe so, I've always been more of an old school low tech reefkeeper. I shun most new technology. I feel it makes things too complicated, expensive, prone to disasterous failures, and drives off potential new hobbyists. I'm so tired of folks coming into my store that are new hobbyists that feel reef tanks are impossible to keep or are bogged down in and endless string of agonizing problems from water chemistry perplexities to nuisance algae to losing all their fish to a parasite because they bought one fish at the local pet shop staffed with high school kids with zero experience.

I know, the Genie is out of the bottle now and it ain't going back in! So, just get with it old man!


I worked here late 60s - mid 70s. At the time they ran ads in TFH and other magazines on the theme of "I'm not so rare at Marine World" and showed a different fish each month, such as the then rarely seen Flame Angelfish!

We went from barely being able to keep corals alive to now propagating them easily. But, have we gone too far?? Designer names, insane prices, expensive equipment made out to be essential, complicated dosing requirements, etc. Where does this ultimately take us???

What about bringing new hobbyists in? The kids? Does everyone have thousands$$$ to afford that "impossible to keep" reef aquarium?

Anyway, it's been an interesting journey. Can't wait to see what's next. The coral export bans are transforming the hobby again. We shall see how it all turns out in the next year or two.

I am new (6 months) to the Marine side of the hobby and everything you said hit home with me.

I am 45 year's old and it has blown me away since getting into reefing the b.s. marketing that goes on in the reefing world. I own a business so I know a little something about marketing and I can honestly say I have never seen so much b.s.! It has almost turned me away from the hobby several times in my first 6 months.

Every YouTube channel is just another guy pushing products from their sponsors and they do all they can do to make you feel like you have to have them and can't be successful without them. From the $800 dollar controllers to the $1000 dollar lights. And I can honestly say that it is a bad look for the industry.

It also is absolutely an elitist industry. And if you are not a discerning person with regards to these things, and alot of that comes with age and wisdom, your 20 gallon AIO reef tank that cost you $175 dollars will quickly become a $2000 tank before any livestock is added. Your $2500 tank will soon become a $10,000 dollar tank before any livestock is added. And within that, you will have all kinds of contraptions hooked up everywhere because someone told you that it had to be done as they walked away smirking after selling you something.

I am trying to keep things simple on my tank just to prove that all of the crap they say you have to have is not really needed. I may be new to the reef side of the hobby but I also was not born yesterday. All of the people showing off their $800 dollar controllers, $300 dollar powerheads, and $1000 dollar lights can go try and impress some other guy because it is not impressing this guy. Not when I know it costs pennies on the dollar to produce those things.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[S2G]

A rich man's hobby? Elitist?? Really, are you serious?

Well, look at all the threads/posts stating "high-end " corals!

High end??

So, someone puts a stupid designer name on a coral, shoots a pic under all blue LEDs, hypes the heck out of it and it's then magically "high-end "???? Is that about it? Oh, wait, wait, it has lineage! Er, what?? Didn't they all come from the ocean? No, so and so named it first and it has lineage and it's "high-end"! You silly, silly man, those leather corals that sway in the flow, look beautiful, and don't die when you look sideways at 'em are dumb! Those aren't worthy, those aren't "high-end"!

That's it in a nutshell. I've even seen designer name gsp.

 

[motortrendz]

I agree with you...the prices have just gone crazy. And I pay for some of the designer pieces that I really like. I dont have a problem with people naming corals. It does help when people talk about certain ones like from RR or wwc. or the famous Walt Disney. But what bothers me is when its just a name. And noone knows what it is, meaning what type of acropora is it, I like to know the species myself. And if its beautiful piece, well I k ow its gonna be a few bucks... the part that drives me nuts is people the size of frags now. Or what some call a mini colony which is basically an encrusted frag plug with 2 or 3 branches that are maybe 3/4"

it's almost impossible to get nice size colonies anymore, bali and jakarta were great with their maricultrued colonies bc they were good price and you could sell the whole colony for 80$ and still make a few bucks. Or 150 for a nice sized ausi colony. Bow those same colonies form ausi are 350+ but I guess this has become the norm now. Everyone wants frags and I'm ine of them too. I probably have about 200 frags in my current setup and most have grown into really nice colonies.
As for the equipment, I'm 50/50 on the crazy stuff... I did make the led dive about 4 years ago with the hydra 52s. and i do like them. It took me a while to be truly happy with them. But I'm not a controller junky. I dont have a Neptune. I still have a reef keeper lite that I use to control my heaters and my skimmer. I have a separate milwakee ph controller to run my calcium reactor. My ato is run off an old autotopoff.com setup that has worked flawlessly for about 8 years now. So I guess you can say I'm semi automated but haven't gone all in on that aspect.
So o guess what I'm saying is, with all the advances made in our hobby, especially in the last 10 years, I feel like we've naturally progressed into a very high end level of the hobby but I also know theres ways to do it just as well with simple inexpensive solutions.

My friend who loves this hobby as much as I do but doesn't have the budget I do, he has a regular 75g tank with a hob skimmer, runs a canister filter a basic heater and black box leds. And he grows zoas, to leathers to acropora. He just started dosing 2 part recently and runs reef Crystal salt. So it definitly can be done. He has nitrTws below 5 and po4 under .10, so the budget reefer is still able to have a beautiful tank too but the guys who want to drive ferraris and corvettes still have their toys too.