Are we ruining the hobby???

[ShawnSaucier]

It is true the prices are insane. but until a vendor sells the same corals and undercut prices i don't think it will ever change. First and foremost for most of the larger vendors out there it IS a competition, This is how they feed there family. So they will resort to fancy names and hype marketing to move big ticket items. But one thing i have noticed, Vendors tend to charge the highest price they can, They don't seek to utilize competition to their benefit. They are trying to make the most money RIGHT NOW. This will all change when a livestock vendor who understands economics comes along

the thing is, they are selling the same corals. i suspect that a large portion of these named corals were pieces that just spent a large amount of time in what ever grow out tank under LEDs.
You used to be able to buy corals in bulk from a company called LivestockUsa.com. You could pick the region and type of corals that you wanted ( SPS, LPS or softies). The catch was you don’t pick the actual corals just type, and you had to go to the airport to pick up. The colonies were on average 3”-5” and mounted on a piece of live rock. Depending on the season, $1000 for 25 colonies.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

the thing is, they are selling the same corals. i suspect that a large portion of these named corals were pieces that just spent a large amount of time in what ever grow out tank under LEDs.
You used to be able to buy corals in bulk from a company called LivestockUsa.com. You could pick the region and type of corals that you wanted ( SPS, LPS or softies). The catch was you don’t pick the actual corals just type, and you had to go to the airport to pick up. The colonies were on average 3”-5” and mounted on a piece of live rock. Depending on the season, $1000 for 25 colonies.

I think livestock USA still exists.
But i understand how they are pretty much the same coral. The man who starts selling MEGA Death Ray arco for 50-100 dollars instead of 600 will be rich

 

[User1]

Funny thing is I don't know the name of any of my sps and I refuse to pay over $20 a frag. To me this is just another hobby not an investment.

Similar boat. I try to stay in the $10 - $20 range including shipping. I've paid $40 for one coral frag and I think $40 for another soft coral on sale (Japanese Willow) but that is it. Otherwise I'm buying on sale and in the same ballpark that you mentioned.

Can be done and limits the selection but it is my choice in the end, right?

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

the thing is, they are selling the same corals. i suspect that a large portion of these named corals were pieces that just spent a large amount of time in what ever grow out tank under LEDs.
You used to be able to buy corals in bulk from a company called LivestockUsa.com. You could pick the region and type of corals that you wanted ( SPS, LPS or softies). The catch was you don’t pick the actual corals just type, and you had to go to the airport to pick up. The colonies were on average 3”-5” and mounted on a piece of live rock. Depending on the season, $1000 for 25 colonies.

The point here is not to call out individual vendors, we all do what we must to pay the bills, some maybe more so than others. Let's keep the discussion on general ideas rather than individuals please.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

The point here is not to call out individual vendors, we all do what we must to pay the bills, some maybe more so than others. Let's keep the discussion on general ideas rather than individuals please.

Not trying to call anyone out, by any means. I used that specific vendor as an example of where you could get some amazing pieces for a great price. And much like what it was 20 years ago. Unfortunately I think the bans may have hurt them. As with all vendors that are having to probably rely more on Aquacultured products.
Not being a vendor, I can only speak from a customer’s point of view. And I would love for all shops to succeed, specially our LFS.

 

[tankstudy]

I feel like it's got its goods and bads.

Things are indeed pricey now but without the interest or amount of money involved we wouldn't have developed as much technology/advancement in such a short time.

 

[User1]

I feel like it's got its goods and bads.

Things are indeed pricey now but without the interest or amount of money involved we wouldn't have developed as much technology/advancement in such a short time.

Well there is a line here.

Equipment != corals

 

[Hermie]

The worst part is this desire by vendors/hobbyists to "name a new coral"

In my "local" reefing group forum, one of the members took offense that people were skeptical of them "naming a new coral" and that person literally started being rude and juvenile about it. They didn't like the idea that people wanted to know the genus/species of the coral. It was nuts.

People think they "own" these corals, but they are a product of nature. Like others have said, it takes a lot of time to "Grow out" corals, and those harvested from the wild took a lot of resources (in nature) to grow.

 

[tankstudy]

Well there is a line here.

Equipment != corals

<----- My little self portrait

Science+Money = Corals

lol.

 

[DangerDave]

I agree and dont participate in the madness. You can get almost any coral at a reasonable price if you’re patient. Eventually the price on most corals settle.

 

[nimrod19]

I only buy what looks good to me as far as livestock goes. I don't think I can keep up with the names. Not even corals, just look at clownfish. When I first started in 2005, it was mostly normal clownfish, maroon clowns and tomato clowns. Now it's like bullethole or wyoming, etc lol.

The technology though I need to have unfortunately. I need my Apex, my dosers, and looking at getting a Trident whenever that pops up again. I like knowing what issues or problems I might be facing. I don't have enough experience to just 'know' when something is wrong. Also, I do like this new thing about 'not chasing numbers' but to me you have to chase some numbers. So anyway, lol.

 

[vanpire]

I think this hobby can be what the reefers want.

For those that want a basic reef with easy non high-end corals or equipment, they can. There are so many gorgeous, easy to grow and inexpensive corals, like red planet, Garf bonsais, pearlberry, tri-color validas, California torts, purple stylos, etc. They can easily provide color and beauty to any tank. Reefers can also buy used but effective equipment and have a tank going for a reasonable price. No one has to buy high end corals or high end equipment.

For those who want all high-end equipment and corals,, well, they can do that also.

There are currently many ways, methods and equipment for all types of reefers. It is about choice.

 

[tnyr5]

I collected orchids for years. The name game started with orchids when they began judging. Not all individuals of a specie are the same. Some have more desirable attributes than others. If you have a plant that's judged and awarded a first class certificate, it's value increases tremendously so the grower assigns a clonal name to that clone to identify it from all other examples of that specie or hybrid. Without that moniker it would be just another specimen of that species. When the hobbyist buys that FCC plant they are assured it is a sion of the original plant, and a genetically identical clone of the award winning plant.
Similar thing is going on with corals, given a certain population there will be variability in the appearance of the individuals and we are looking for the best (whatever that means). BUT where the name game differs in corals is that too many vendors will bring in a wild colony that colors up to be amazing then they name it, chop it, and sell most of it off, and then desiring more sales will bring in more similar wild colonies of the same species and sell them under the famous clonal name, or one of their competitors will. A named coral frag should be genetically identical to the original colony. Those are the rules of the name game but many coral vendors aren't even aware of these rules.

Some other differences between orchids and corals (as someone who was training to be an orchid judge before deciding it wasn't for him):
-There is an actual standard of excellence that an orchid must meet or exceed in order to win an award(in ascending order of prestige for flower quality: HCC, AM, FCC); judges don't just say: "Oh, that's nice, let's give it an FCC." It's D**N HARD to get an FCC on an orchid. It must stand up against EVERY OTHER FCC to that species in order to win one. It's a 1 in 5,000 plant.
Image the fit vendors would throw if they actually had to prove that new coral was worthy of being an LE. Most of them name every single coral they get in.

- There is a certain standard of taste applied to naming orchids. "Pink B**bies", "Blue *rgasms", the longhand of "BBEB"....none of these would ever get past any of the world's orchid judging societies.

- When an orchid gets a flower quality award, every division that was ever sold before it got the award, also gets the award. That is to say, the value of the plant lies in the award, not in which famous person is selling it. This ties into my next point:

- You cannot just take a division of an awarded plant (your own or someone else's), rename it, and take it to get another award. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but the orchid community as a whole has no tolerance for that crap whatsoever. Renaming someone else's plant as your own will get you blacklisted by the community right quick.
You also cannot use a name that has already been used for that orchid species or hybrid if you win an award.
Compare this to coral vendors, who openly and brazenly rename their own corals to make them seem new (and therefore price them higher), change the names of other people's corals to make it seem like they discovered them, and use someone else's name on their coral if said name is associated with value. Sometimes they even brag about it.
In summation: the Wild West, anything-goes mental state of modern reefing is not unlike what the orchid hobby was more than a century ago, before these standards were in place.

 

[Terri Caton]

"Designer" corals in fact originate in the ocean. That's part of my rant, someone put a goofy name on them and claimed themselves as the discoverer. No such thing as a "designer" or "high-end" coral, it's all hype and marketing that all sellers do nowadays. Some are lighthearted about it and some take it to an extreme.

The reefkeeping hobby is a niche market. Appealing to "high-end" collectors is an even smaller piece of the pie. However, there are tons of vendors vying for those buyers--while there are fewer vendors that cater to all hobbyists or actively try to appeal to new hobbyists or strive to bring in new hobbyists or reach out to kids to spark their interest in the reefs--aquariums or not.

If hobbyists really want to make some money growing corals, concentrate not on trying to grow out and make a fortune on the latest glow in the dark Acro. Instead, grow easy to keep softies. Local stores would buy as many as you can grow. I sell tons of green star polyps, Xenia, Leathers, galaxea, etc. Those are the corals that most folks want. They all grow quickly, don't die for some silly reason, don't change in color constantly depending upon the amount of foo foo dust sprinkled on them. R2R appeals to the "desinger" crowd. All the Live Sales and Auctions. That's fine, live and let live. It's not really my way. Sometimes we all border on being the proverbial used car salesman, the auctions and live sales give me that feel.

Due to this thread I checked out your website...and bought 4 things! And they were all easy ones but beautiful. "Foo foo dust" lolol True and funny.

I happen to have a medical background but also am pretty creative. This hobby appeals to me in creativity, physiology and chemistry. Personally, I just used my current knowledge to supplement what I've read. Then just did what I figured would work. Guess what? Everything is alive and well.

 

[Terri Caton]

I think this hobby can be what the reefers want.

For those that want a basic reef with easy non high-end corals or equipment, they can. There are so many gorgeous, easy to grow and inexpensive corals, like red planet, Garf bonsais, pearlberry, tri-color validas, California torts, purple stylos, etc. They can easily provide color and beauty to any tank. Reefers can also buy used but effective equipment and have a tank going for a reasonable price. No one has to buy high end corals or high end equipment.

For those who want all high-end equipment and corals,, well, they can do that also.

There are currently many ways, methods and equipment for all types of reefers. It is about choice.

I think the problem is as a new person to this hobby (me) you never hear about how to do it cheaply but effectively. Everything is a Must Have. What you purchased is never good enough. Upgrade, Upgrade, Upgrade. I think this is one of the points Dr. Mac is trying to make. I tried to research an Ultra Low Maintenance tank and was so overwhelmed!

 

[Bleigh]

My biggest thing with knowing coral names is just so I can keep track of them. I don’t actually care if it’s a designer name. I just have 4 different pink zoas that look incredibly different. I could name them like pets I suppose. Technically they are animals... ;Bookworm

 

[FishDoc]

I've been a marine aquarium hobbyist since 1965. Actually, we did quite well back then at keeping all types of fish, inverts, anemones, etc. I had many tanks and worked at Marine World in the Chicago area. Tanks were beautiful, basic, and most fish lived well. Myself and friends had all sorts of fish that would spawn and it was an enjoyable hobby. I loved seeing fish from all over the world: Pinecone fish from the South China Sea, Purple Tangs from the Red Sea, Clownfish from the Phillipines, fish hand caught by Rodney Jonklaas in the Indian Ocean, chunks of rock with sponges, gorgos, and corals from the Keys, all kinds of inverts, etc. With just a basic understanding of nitrogen cycle, the hobby was fun and relatively inexpensive and accessible to most folks.

Then in the 80s the hobby transformed into reefkeeping with the ability to keep more corals. As time has gone on the hobby progressed from most folks not being able to keep too many different corals and buying colonies to where we are today with designer corals and tiny frags.

In some respects this has been the natural progression, as equipment such as lighting and skimmers, etc. have improved--so has the ability to not only keep but propagate most corals.

When Pacific East Aquaculture started in 1999-2000 we sold lots of colonies and started growing some frags. We described the corals as Blue Acropora or Pink Bird's Nest and that was sufficient. At that time most folks were thrilled to just be able to just keep such corals alive. Naturally, over time we saw many of our customers become vendors as the ability to keep corals became more understood and easier so did the ability to propagate them. This progression was great.

At some point several years ago the number of coral vendors grew exponentially. I recall being one of maybe 3 coral vendors at MACNA in DC years ago to now there are close to a hundred. Things began to change as the industry became more competitive. In order to stand out and sell their corals vendors began using crazy names and prices to create so-called limited editions. Auctions started, and live sales, all in the interest of driving the hype, increasing sales, and profitability. Great, right? It's the American way, right? Good marketing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about this progression, just observing from many years on the inside. But, have we gone too far? Is where we are at now healthy for this hobby/industry? Are we bringing in enough new hobbyists to sustain it all? Have we made this into a rich man's hobby?? $1500 1/2 inch designer Acro frags, 25,000 angelfish, $1000 must have controllers, $800 can't live without LED fixtures, impossibly complicated dosing regimens, etc., etc! Have we killed the joy?

The weekly live sale or Ebay auctions and the endless hype leads to the frenzied hobbyist that is constantly trying to one-up other hobbyists. Tanks filled with tiny frags and the thought by many that if I get the latest designer coral I can grow it out and make a fortune.

But, what about the future of the hobby? Are we making it too complicated, too expensive, too elitist?? Are star polyps, leathers, and bubble corals no longer enough? Of course not, right?

True story: several years ago at a swap, (I use to be a vendor at about 25 a year), I had about 30 frags of really nice blue Zoanthids. Many folks came up to our booth and liked them, but they asked "what's the name"? When I shrugged my shoulders and said blue zoos, they walked away even though they liked the coral. By the early afternoon I became frustrated and started calling them King's Ransom Zoanthids. As the afternoon crowd flocked in we started selling them. Soon I had folks coming up asking if I had any of them King's Ransoms! And indeed, the very same coral that we couldn't sell any, sold out within a couple hours. What did this show me? Obviously I'm really dumb about marketing!! OK, admittedly, I still prefer, to my detriment, to say Blue Acro instead of Rainbow Swirl Atomic Passion Acro. Sure I'd sell more Atomic Passions, but it still gives me an icky feeling. Yeah, I know, I'm just dumb!

So, I know this thread will bring endless responses about how the designer craze is not what most folks want and object to it. But, at the same time I'll see someone ask "ID please, what's the name of this" , and they don't mean Acropora sarmentosa, they want Atomic Passion.

OK, so I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon. Maybe so, I've always been more of an old school low tech reefkeeper. I shun most new technology. I feel it makes things too complicated, expensive, prone to disasterous failures, and drives off potential new hobbyists. I'm so tired of folks coming into my store that are new hobbyists that feel reef tanks are impossible to keep or are bogged down in and endless string of agonizing problems from water chemistry perplexities to nuisance algae to losing all their fish to a parasite because they bought one fish at the local pet shop staffed with high school kids with zero experience.

I know, the Genie is out of the bottle now and it ain't going back in! So, just get with it old man!


I worked here late 60s - mid 70s. At the time they ran ads in TFH and other magazines on the theme of "I'm not so rare at Marine World" and showed a different fish each month, such as the then rarely seen Flame Angelfish!

We went from barely being able to keep corals alive to now propagating them easily. But, have we gone too far?? Designer names, insane prices, expensive equipment made out to be essential, complicated dosing requirements, etc. Where does this ultimately take us???

What about bringing new hobbyists in? The kids? Does everyone have thousands$$$ to afford that "impossible to keep" reef aquarium?

Anyway, it's been an interesting journey. Can't wait to see what's next. The coral export bans are transforming the hobby again. We shall see how it all turns out in the next year or two.

At the risk of coming across to strongly I’ll just say that I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement. I have been entranced by aquaria my whole life, albeit not since 1965 , but none the less long enough to watch this hobby grow and not necessarily in a good way. For me the wonder and joy of fish/invert keeping has and will always be about my love of fish and challenge of learning as a part of success in this hobby. I worry that with the advancements in tech, propagation and status oriented marketing that we are creating an environment that is not really welcoming to those that don’t have or want to spend thousands of dollars to simply enjoy the hobby without headache or another sales pitch.

 

[FishyDave]

I also agree @PacificEastAquaculture

Everyone seems to be learning from YouTube videos these days. Some kid in college or a company pushing their products are not the all knowing deities of reef keeping. Want to learn about reef keeping, get a book written by someone with decades in the hobby or a PHD in Marine Biology. Just look at all the companies here on R2R in the ads, it has gotten nuts. You know just because someone advertises it and says you need it, its not true.

There is very few pieces equipment you need to keep a reef tank. A box that holds water and does not leak, a return pump, a heater, possibly a chiller, a protein skimmer, RODI water maker, appropriate lighting (this does not mean LED's) and a sump. None of this has to be new or the best, heck most of these items sit hidden under our tanks.

Consistent water quality with little to no swing in temp, salinity, and other parameters is the single key to success in this hobby.

I would also say warranties for livestock have helped ruin this hobby. All it does encourage us to buy fish/corals we are not ready for based upon our experience. If the fish dies we get another one for free. This repeats until you finally understand what you are doing wrong. But some how the cost of those losses have to be recovered by business and we all pay more making the hobby more expensive across the board.

 

[Bill Bolton]

I've been a marine aquarium hobbyist since 1965. Actually, we did quite well back then at keeping all types of fish, inverts, anemones, etc. I had many tanks and worked at Marine World in the Chicago area. Tanks were beautiful, basic, and most fish lived well. Myself and friends had all sorts of fish that would spawn and it was an enjoyable hobby. I loved seeing fish from all over the world: Pinecone fish from the South China Sea, Purple Tangs from the Red Sea, Clownfish from the Phillipines, fish hand caught by Rodney Jonklaas in the Indian Ocean, chunks of rock with sponges, gorgos, and corals from the Keys, all kinds of inverts, etc. With just a basic understanding of nitrogen cycle, the hobby was fun and relatively inexpensive and accessible to most folks.

Then in the 80s the hobby transformed into reefkeeping with the ability to keep more corals. As time has gone on the hobby progressed from most folks not being able to keep too many different corals and buying colonies to where we are today with designer corals and tiny frags.

In some respects this has been the natural progression, as equipment such as lighting and skimmers, etc. have improved--so has the ability to not only keep but propagate most corals.

When Pacific East Aquaculture started in 1999-2000 we sold lots of colonies and started growing some frags. We described the corals as Blue Acropora or Pink Bird's Nest and that was sufficient. At that time most folks were thrilled to just be able to just keep such corals alive. Naturally, over time we saw many of our customers become vendors as the ability to keep corals became more understood and easier so did the ability to propagate them. This progression was great.

At some point several years ago the number of coral vendors grew exponentially. I recall being one of maybe 3 coral vendors at MACNA in DC years ago to now there are close to a hundred. Things began to change as the industry became more competitive. In order to stand out and sell their corals vendors began using crazy names and prices to create so-called limited editions. Auctions started, and live sales, all in the interest of driving the hype, increasing sales, and profitability. Great, right? It's the American way, right? Good marketing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about this progression, just observing from many years on the inside. But, have we gone too far? Is where we are at now healthy for this hobby/industry? Are we bringing in enough new hobbyists to sustain it all? Have we made this into a rich man's hobby?? $1500 1/2 inch designer Acro frags, 25,000 angelfish, $1000 must have controllers, $800 can't live without LED fixtures, impossibly complicated dosing regimens, etc., etc! Have we killed the joy?

The weekly live sale or Ebay auctions and the endless hype leads to the frenzied hobbyist that is constantly trying to one-up other hobbyists. Tanks filled with tiny frags and the thought by many that if I get the latest designer coral I can grow it out and make a fortune.

But, what about the future of the hobby? Are we making it too complicated, too expensive, too elitist?? Are star polyps, leathers, and bubble corals no longer enough? Of course not, right?

True story: several years ago at a swap, (I use to be a vendor at about 25 a year), I had about 30 frags of really nice blue Zoanthids. Many folks came up to our booth and liked them, but they asked "what's the name"? When I shrugged my shoulders and said blue zoos, they walked away even though they liked the coral. By the early afternoon I became frustrated and started calling them King's Ransom Zoanthids. As the afternoon crowd flocked in we started selling them. Soon I had folks coming up asking if I had any of them King's Ransoms! And indeed, the very same coral that we couldn't sell any, sold out within a couple hours. What did this show me? Obviously I'm really dumb about marketing!! OK, admittedly, I still prefer, to my detriment, to say Blue Acro instead of Rainbow Swirl Atomic Passion Acro. Sure I'd sell more Atomic Passions, but it still gives me an icky feeling. Yeah, I know, I'm just dumb!

So, I know this thread will bring endless responses about how the designer craze is not what most folks want and object to it. But, at the same time I'll see someone ask "ID please, what's the name of this" , and they don't mean Acropora sarmentosa, they want Atomic Passion.

OK, so I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon. Maybe so, I've always been more of an old school low tech reefkeeper. I shun most new technology. I feel it makes things too complicated, expensive, prone to disasterous failures, and drives off potential new hobbyists. I'm so tired of folks coming into my store that are new hobbyists that feel reef tanks are impossible to keep or are bogged down in and endless string of agonizing problems from water chemistry perplexities to nuisance algae to losing all their fish to a parasite because they bought one fish at the local pet shop staffed with high school kids with zero experience.

I know, the Genie is out of the bottle now and it ain't going back in! So, just get with it old man!


I worked here late 60s - mid 70s. At the time they ran ads in TFH and other magazines on the theme of "I'm not so rare at Marine World" and showed a different fish each month, such as the then rarely seen Flame Angelfish!

We went from barely being able to keep corals alive to now propagating them easily. But, have we gone too far?? Designer names, insane prices, expensive equipment made out to be essential, complicated dosing requirements, etc. Where does this ultimately take us???

What about bringing new hobbyists in? The kids? Does everyone have thousands$$$ to afford that "impossible to keep" reef aquarium?

Anyway, it's been an interesting journey. Can't wait to see what's next. The coral export bans are transforming the hobby again. We shall see how it all turns out in the next year or two.

I couldnt agree more! I got into reefkeeping early, my junior year in high school, 1984. Back then, live rock was REAL. LIVE. ROCK. My first tank, over half the corals came with my rock!! Of course there were some pests and predators, but that was part of the coolness, the wonder! I ordered in 175 pounds of LR, set my tank up and found I had 2 BEAUTIFUL Peacock mantis, and though beautiful, a very dangerous Blue Ring Octopus. On top of this, there were shrooms, zoas, various acros.... and copepods out the wazoo! I paid $2.25/lb for that rock, didn't have a name of where it was from, and I didn't care. Now, I see people paying well over $1000 for a tank of rock! Then, they scrub off all the life, and nuke it for a couple months.... till it's dead rock.... STUPID!!
Add to this, $1000 dollar lights, $500 skimmer and the other overpriced pieces of automation and it is most certainly a rich man's hobby at this point. All this expense before ever thinking of the fish and corals, which are obnoxiously high priced. Back in 2003 to 2005, a friend and I started dragging the hot new corals, and if online and the other shops charged $100/frag, we charged $25. We agreed that the hobby needs to be kept reasonably priced or it would eventually starve itself out. We did very well, until hurricane Katrina collapsed our garage and killed our business. We didn't have the means to start over from scratch, so we ended it. I have kept a reef tank since, until the last 5 years.... I sold mine due to an exposure to toxic mold in our house, and ever since, i can't have a tank due to the various molds, mildew and bacteria that our tanks spawn that usually dont affect us....i keep thinking of starting up a small 50 or 60 gallon, but then I see the prices for everything, and I refuse to spend what people think their stuff is worth. The best skimmer on the market will cost $500 ish........
But the plastic to make it, and the pump cost less than $100 to make....
We have pushed the prices of every aspect of this hobby way past the reach of most.
I'll come back after the crash and pick up some pieces!!

 

[FishyDave]

I think the whole thing is hilarious. I go to swaps and just smile as some vendor is selling his frags to a potential customer: "oh yeah man, that's Angry Birds, that's Joker's Revenge, those are Pink Zonkers". The potential customer asks, "are those the original Pink Zonkers, because my buddy got some Pink Zonkers and they are green and pink and these are teal and pink". Vendor says, "oh no, I got mine directly from JT and his are the originals". Passerby hears this and says, "come on man, JT's don't have the lineage, only ZZ's are real Pink Zonkers ". Now a small group converge at the booth and each says they know who had the original Pink Zonkers and these are not them. The vendor is in heated debate. In the meantime, I sell a dozen frags of my newly named Pink Zonker Bonkers, that had been $20 prior to the name change and are now $60, along with certificates of authenticity and a free sample of Wonder Food that makes them glow in the dark--everyone is now happy and feels satisfied

Love the certificates! ;Cyclops I can just hear the conversation now.

Buyer: Who certifies this coral you are selling?

Vendor: I do

Buyer: Soooo, you are growing the coral and printing out a certificate and selling it for more?

Vendor: Yep

Buyer: Please, here take my money...Thinking to themselves "I can't wait to tell the reef club about this find"

Gotta love that company!