Are white worms a "complete" diet?

[JoJosReef]

My culture has been overflowing this week, so I've been feeding almost exclusively the worms. Usually I vary from day to day between mysis (staple), freeze dried black worms, and live white worms. I also have a Plank dropping TDO pellets and freeze dried calanus 6x/day for the wrasses (so this week just white worms and the plank).

Does anyone know if white worms have all the nutrients they need, or are they missing essential nutrients from the mysis?

Note: foxface (only algae eater) eats all that, plus I give him chunks of turf algae from the ATS every day or two.

Thanks!

 

[mcarroll]

Might be. What do the grow on?

 

[JoJosReef]

Might be. What do the grow on?

Mostly Trader Joe's European Style yogurt + Baker's yeast. Also some stale bread, but they really blow up with the yogurt (specifically the TJ's EU style--I've seen notable differences).

 

[malacoda]

I can't say for certain, but my guess would be it depends on the fish...

They're probably in the same realm as clams (e.g. good both in proteins, healthy bacteria) for fish whose natural diets are mostly carnivorous. But likely lack the fiber and additional vitamins that herbivorous and omnivorous fish get from algae.

Like I said though, just my suspicion. More research is probably called for.

Mostly Trader Joe's European Style yogurt + Baker's yeast. Also some stale bread, but they really blow up with the yogurt (specifically the TJ's EU style--I've seen notable differences).

Thanks for this info regarding the yogurt. I just ordered a starter culture yesterday and this is good to know!

 

[kevgib67]

I don’t think so but they are high in protein and lipids so are very beneficial. I always believe in variety to meet all the requirements. Like you I use plain yogurt and yeast but also oats and alternate pellets, flake and crushed dry cat food to my white worm mix.

 

[JoJosReef]

I can't say for certain, but my guess would be it depends on the fish...

They're probably in the same realm as clams (e.g. good both in proteins, healthy bacteria) for fish whose natural diets are mostly carnivorous. But likely lack the fiber and additional vitamins that herbivorous and omnivorous fish get from algae.

Like I said though, just my suspicion. More research is probably called for.



Thanks for this info regarding the yogurt. I just ordered a starter culture yesterday and this is good to know!

I'll post some pictures later (5am over here). What I find works best is laying a plastic mesh screen over the soil, about 3in square, mixing yogurt with about a teaspoon of yeast, dumping a large spoonful of yogurt on the mesh and topping with a quarter slice of stale bread. At the beginning of the culture, cut that in half. @Snoopdog is the expert on all things white worms if you have questions!

 

[JoJosReef]

I don’t think so but they are high in protein and lipids so are very beneficial. I always believe in variety to meet all the requirements. Like you I use plain yogurt and yeast but also oats and alternate pellets, flake and crushed dry cat food to my white worm mix.

Yes! Like this! Noted on the crushed dry cat food @kevgib67

Some people look at this and say "gross"! I look at this and say "someone's about to have a great day"!

 

[kevgib67]

Yes! Like this! Noted on the crushed dry cat food @kevgib67

Some people look at this and say "gross"! I look at this and say "someone's about to have a great day"!

I look at it and think all it needs is some pasta sauce and meatballs!

 

[kevgib67]

I always keep another culture going because when the population explodes it eventually crashes. Nutrients in but no waste export out. I haven’t figured out a way to remedy this. Any ideas Jojo?

 

[kevgib67]

Yes! Like this! Noted on the crushed dry cat food @kevgib67

Some people look at this and say "gross"! I look at this and say "someone's about to have a great day"!

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[JoJosReef]

I always keep another culture going because when the population explodes it eventually crashes. Nutrients in but no waste export out. I haven’t figured out a way to remedy this. Any ideas Jojo?

Still working on this as well. @Paul B floods his and then wrings out the water, from what I understand. I haven't tried this yet but will try to do it soon. I'm not sure what the best material is for straining without making a mess and having worms embedding themselves in the strainer (I tried a metal tea sieve as a pre-feeding rinse and that just ended up with worms weaving themselves in and out the sieve).

 

[JoJosReef]

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Love how even the cleaner shrimp go nuts. White worms are are just the best.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Great for food but darn it that looks pretty disgusting - trying to enjoy breakfast here.

I'll stick to Mysis from Jehmco.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Most terrestrial organisms are lower in iodine than marine foods, and there are other differences, such as the chain length (especially odd/even lengths) and unsaturation levels of fatty acids (think fish oil vs lard).

I'm not a fan of feeding terrestrial foods to marine organisms, at least not as the primary diet component.

 

[Jimbo327]

Makes me really want to give it another try. Like I said before, I screwed up when I tried to replace the soil with new soil, and I guess I didn't sterilize it enough. And it was full of gnats later and I had to toss it. My wife wouldn't let me microwave the soil which I totally understand as that's where we heat up our food.

It would be super nice if we can just recycle the same soil.

 

[JoJosReef]

Makes me really want to give it another try. Like I said before, I screwed up when I tried to replace the soil with new soil, and I guess I didn't sterilize it enough. And it was full of gnats later and I had to toss it. My wife wouldn't let me microwave the soil which I totally understand as that's where we heat up our food.

It would be super nice if we can just recycle the same soil.

I understand that @Paul B (I keep summoning you, lol) has been rinsing and using the same soil for years.

If you need some sterile soil, I'm happy to auotclave some for you. Just let me know when.

 

[mcarroll]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617307366

if you look at how Paul B uses them (eg. not alone) and his results they are clearly pretty good even how they are typically raised.

But if you look at this article, how you feed them definitely matters. If you're getting an excess of micro worms, it would be easy to change their diet, according to this article, so that their PUFA content is much higher, although production of worms will decrease. This matters if maybe you're selling white worms, but I think at home where production levels don't necessarily matter you would prefer to have more nutritious worms.

very similar to raising cows and pigs for human consumption… On their natural diets their PUFA content is pretty good. But when they are grain fed, the fat is a much different profile and lacking the good stuff that you were trying to feed your fish and that we also need. (omega-3 fatty acids in a good ratio)

 

[JoJosReef]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617307366

if you look at how Paul B uses them (eg. not alone) and his results they are clearly pretty good even how they are typically raised.

But if you look at this article, how you feed them definitely matters. If you're getting an excess of micro worms, it would be easy to change their diet, according to this article, so that their PUFA content is much higher, although production of worms will decrease. This matters if maybe you're selling white worms, but I think at home where production levels don't necessarily matter you would prefer to have more nutritious worms.

very similar to raising cows and pigs for human consumption… On their natural diets their PUFA content is pretty good. But when they are grain fed, the fat is a much different profile and lacking the good stuff that you were trying to feed your fish and that we also need. (omega-3 fatty acids in a good ratio)

Hmm, I wonder if dumping some spirulina powder and freeze dried calanus in the yogurt mix would up the nutritional value... That's what they'll be getting this weekend then! Also have freeze dried mysis that none of my fish like to eat...

 

[mcarroll]

Hmm, I wonder if dumping some spirulina powder and freeze dried calanus in the yogurt mix would up the nutritional value... That's what they'll be getting this weekend then! Also have freeze dried mysis that none of my fish like to eat...

I threw "white worms fatty acid" into Google Scholar to get that article – there were tons more, so the question has almost surely been answered. If you simply wanted to do what they did in the article, grind up a little noori and add some sugar to your mix.

Also worth pointing out that while Paul B doesn't use white worms exclusively, he also does not preach "variety". Fish species are generally oriented around what they eat, and it's not usually a wide variety per se – it's what's available in their area. For a locally-oriented reef fish, that can easily mean eating mostly one thing. Fish like tangs aren't always so locally oriented, but their diet is sorta specific because of their behavior as well. This is one of the things at the root of what makes species species.

(His book is a great read, BTW.....way better than my posts about what he said. LOL)

 

[JoJosReef]

I threw "white worms fatty acid" into Google Scholar to get that article – there were tons more, so the question has almost surely been answered. If you simply wanted to do what they did in the article, grind up a little noori and add some sugar to your mix.

Also worth pointing out that while Paul B doesn't use white worms exclusively, he also does not preach "variety". Fish species are generally oriented around what they eat, and it's not usually a wide variety per se – it's what's available in their area. For a locally-oriented reef fish, that can easily mean eating mostly one thing. Fish like tangs aren't always so locally oriented, but their diet is sorta specific because of their behavior as well. This is one of the things at the root of what makes species species.

(His book is a great read, BTW.....way better than my posts about what he said. LOL)

Nothing wrong with a little experimentation. If I find out my CBB suddenly doesn't like the worms, maybe back to yogurt and bread.

I'll post results.