ATO sensor in last chamber with pump? (Basement Sump)

[Uncle99]

Asked this question a while ago, 9 out of 10 responses was ATO sensor Was to be placed in the final chamber, or lowest water section.

180g mixed with 40g sump in basement.

I can’t make this work as on a restart (from say a power outage) the pump goes down about an inch past the normal run line on the refill of the tank back to norm. My sump is downstairs, 12 feet, straight down 10, over 2, down 2 into sump.

Only the water level in the first two chambers return to last position, so I have my ATO in a quiet section of my first chamber near the skimmer.

Will this work?

I am assuming when water leaves the running system through evaporation, the DT, and all the chambers in a sump lower as well.

Is that thinking correct?

Or how do you people keep your return level constant (with exception to evaporation)?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

 

[un5tab1e]

Unless you have leaks in your baffles, you should only see evaporation levels drop in the return pump section. Why they tell you to put it in the return section.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have mine in the chamber BEFORE the pump as if this chamber water level gets low, your pump level likely will also.

 

[HTXReefer]

Most sumps keep a pretty constant level while water is running. The return pump section will vary in depth because of evaporation in the tank. That is the main reason we keep our ATO in that section. You will not see enough change in water depth before the return section to trigger the ATO in most cases.

 

[Uncle99]

I have mine in the chamber BEFORE the pump as if this chamber water level gets low, your pump level likely will also.

Interesting and thank you. For me, that would be the second middle chamber, a refugium, this I can do. This area seems stable as well.

Correct, if two first chambers go down say 1/2”, the last one goes down 1/2”. Agreed.

So, it doesn’t have to be in the last chamber to work.

Time to test....thanks

 

[Uncle99]

Unless you have leaks in your baffles, you should only see evaporation levels drop in the return pump section. Why they tell you to put it in the return section.

Love to put it there but It will malfunction if the system recovers from from a power outage, when restarting, my system pulls about an 1” more than normal, then recovers back to normal after 4-5 minutes. During this time the ATO is fooled into thinking water level is low, so it adds water when it should not.

 

[Uncle99]

Most sumps keep a pretty constant level while water is running. The return pump section will vary in depth because of evaporation in the tank. That is the main reason we keep our ATO in that section. You will not see enough change in water depth before the return section to trigger the ATO in most cases.

My sump keeps a very constant level while “running”
It’s the restart that’s creates the inconsistency, otherwise the ATO works great.
But what happens if power goes out.?
Does your sump level only drop to the last level when you start your pump.
My sump is not right under my DT, it’s 15 feet away, mostly down, and this seem to create a “delay“ between water being pumped up, and it’s return, but it always catches up.
But during the “balance” the ATO is tricked into coming on.
Trying to prevent this from happening.

 

[Philly Reefer]

I think we might have a clear picture if you post a photo of your sump.
I showed you mine on the old thread.

Where does ATO sensor go?

So first time with sump in 20 years. Where does the ATO sensor go in the sump? The first chamber, the middle fuge, or the return?

www.reef2reef.com

Why only the return pump chamber is the only one going down is because of the bubble trap.

Do you have a bubble trap as a divider? If not, I think your whole sump water level can be going down with evaporation

Before my bubble trap dividers, I have a baffle that I can move up and down to make water level higher or lower for my skimmer.
Thats making the water level on those chambers wil always be the same

 

[HTXReefer]

My sump keeps a very constant level while “running”
It’s the restart that’s creates the inconsistency, otherwise the ATO works great.
But what happens if power goes out.?
Does your sump level only drop to the last level when you start your pump.
My sump is not right under my DT, it’s 15 feet away, mostly down, and this seem to create a “delay“ between water being pumped up, and it’s return, but it always catches up.
But during the “balance” the ATO is tricked into coming on.
Trying to prevent this from happening.

In the event that we have a power outage my sump takes the additional water (about 10 gallons) from what is left in the overflow and return lines. When power is restored my sump goes back to normal level.
One question, Did you set the water level in your sump while the return pump is running?
The reason I ask is that if you lose power and the water level was set this way any water that drains back to the sump should add water to it so when the power comes back and the return comes back on it should drop back to normal level.
If your power is off for an extended period of time water will evaporate and you’ll need to add freshwater

 

[anthonygf]

Asked this question a while ago, 9 out of 10 responses was ATO sensor Was to be placed in the final chamber, or lowest water section.

180g mixed with 40g sump in basement.

I can’t make this work as on a restart (from say a power outage) the pump goes down about an inch past the normal run line on the refill of the tank back to norm. My sump is downstairs, 12 feet, straight down 10, over 2, down 2 into sump.

Only the water level in the first two chambers return to last position, so I have my ATO in a quiet section of my first chamber near the skimmer.

Will this work?

I am assuming when water leaves the running system through evaporation, the DT, and all the chambers in a sump lower as well.

Is that thinking correct?

Or how do you people keep your return level constant (with exception to evaporation)?

Appreciate any thoughts you might have.

I have mine in the first chamber for four years now with no trouble. I don't have an ATO but a float valve with it plumbed 1/8" line to RO/DI system and a high level sensor to close a valve to stop flow in case of float sticking or breaking.

 

[Uncle99]

I think we might have a clear picture if you post a photo of your sump.
I showed you mine on the old thread.

Where does ATO sensor go?

So first time with sump in 20 years. Where does the ATO sensor go in the sump? The first chamber, the middle fuge, or the return?

www.reef2reef.com

Why only the return pump chamber is the only one going down is because of the bubble trap.

Do you have a bubble trap as a divider? If not, I think your whole sump water level can be going down with evaporation

Before my bubble trap dividers, I have a baffle that I can move up and down to make water level higher or lower for my skimmer.
Thats making the water level on those chambers wil always be the same

 

[Philly Reefer]

Ok so yes. I can confirm that it should be only the return pump chamber that goes down with evaporation.

But I think I know what your problem is. During power outage and restart, you are stating that the water line goes below the mark, right?
That mark is where your ato sensor is.

I think the water will go down but after few minutes(this might be more than few minutes), when the water overflow correctly from your DT, the water in the return pump chamber should normalize.

But your problem is when that happens, the ato is turning on 1st. Filling up the return chamber.

Please confirm if my guess is right?

 

[anthonygf]

I have mine in the first chamber for four years now with no trouble. I don't have an ATO but a float valve with it plumbed 1/8" line to RO/DI system and a high level sensor to close a valve to stop flow in case of float sticking or breaking.

I forgot that some of you have filters between baffles and causes different water levels in the sump, lowest area does make sense. My sump I have the same level throughout and does not matter where I place mine. See, I will always have something to learn in this hobby, never gets dull.

 

[Philly Reefer]

I forgot that some of you have filters between baffles and causes different water levels in the sump, lowest area does make sense. My sump I have the same level throughout and does not matter where I place mine. See, I will always have something to learn in this hobby, never gets dull.

Yup the baffle for the bubble trap will make the water levels stays the same on the chambers before the bubble trap

 

[ReefBeta]

Love to put it there but It will malfunction if the system recovers from from a power outage, when restarting, my system pulls about an 1” more than normal, then recovers back to normal after 4-5 minutes. During this time the ATO is fooled into thinking water level is low, so it adds water when it should not.

It will be hard. The return chamber is the only correct chamber to put ATO. The best solution is to put your ATO on a delay outlet, the setting usually used for skimmer, to have it on 5 minutes after the return pump, so give enough time for the water level to go back to normal.

The alternative way may work (can be sure without actually trying) is to run the water level higher than sump baffle, so that the whole sump is the same level, and put the baffle as low as possible if adjustable. Then the drop of water volume is divided by the whole area of the sump instead of the return chamber, and the change in height will be smaller. Hopefully that's enough to not trigger your ATO.

 

[Red_Beard]

Thinking about this and it sounds like you just have a delay between when the pump gets all the normal amount of water back to the display and when the overflow catches up filling The sump again. The problem with moving sensor is that the pump chamber is the only one that fluctuates with evaporation. Easiest most reliable way i can think to fix this is to put a ‘delay on make‘ timer on the power to the ato or ato pump. just adjust the timer to kick on after the water flow has leveled out and your ato will stay off I till stuff is where it needs to be and then run like normal.

ICM102B - ICM Controls ICM102B - ICM102 Delay on Make Timer (.03-10 Minute Adjustable Delay)

ICM Controls ICM102B - ICM102 Delay on Make Timer (.03-10 Minute Adjustable Delay) - Mode of Operation - When power is applied to the input, the time delay begins. After the time delay is complete, the load energizes.<br><br> Delay on Make Timers are ideal for compressor staging and stagger...

www.supplyhouse.com

 

[Philly Reefer]

It will be hard. The return chamber is the only correct chamber to put ATO. The best solution is to put your ATO on a delay outlet, the setting usually used for skimmer, to have it on 5 minutes after the return pump, so give enough time for the water level to go back to normal.

The alternative way may work (can be sure without actually trying) is to run the water level higher than sump baffle, so that the whole sump is the same level, and put the baffle as low as possible if adjustable. Then the drop of water volume is divided by the whole area of the sump instead of the return chamber, and the change in height will be smaller. Hopefully that's enough to not trigger your ATO.

Yup thats what I am thinking. A controller would be great for this. I have my apex programmed that way. Every time the return pump turned off, ato would be off for 2 hours when the power is back up

 

[Uncle99]

Ok so yes. I can confirm that it should be only the return pump chamber that goes down with evaporation.

But I think I know what your problem is. During power outage and restart, you are stating that the water line goes below the mark, right?
That mark is where your ato sensor is.

I think the water will go down but after few minutes(this might be more than few minutes), when the water overflow correctly from your DT, the water in the return pump chamber should normalize.

But your problem is when that happens, the ato is turning on 1st. Filling up the return chamber.

Please confirm if my guess is right?

Logically speaking, when water leaves the “system” it should leave from the whole system, the DT, and each chamber of a sump. Currently testing that thinking, ATO turned off and DT, Sump Chambers, all marked with tape. Let’s see what effect evaporation of 24 hours makes to each component.

Your guess is absolutely correct.
Takes about 3-4 minutes to stabilize, and during that time, ATO is filling.
The restart flux problem appears to have no effect in the first and second chamber levels, when refilling after restart, the first two chambers go down, but never below the ATO sensor, that’s why I moved it.

 

[Uncle99]

Thinking about this and it sounds like you just have a delay between when the pump gets all the normal amount of water back to the display and when the overflow catches up filling The sump again. The problem with moving sensor is that the pump chamber is the only one that fluctuates with evaporation. Easiest most reliable way i can think to fix this is to put a ‘delay on make‘ timer on the power to the ato or ato pump. just adjust the timer to kick on after the water flow has leveled out and your ato will stay off I till stuff is where it needs to be and then run like normal.

ICM102B - ICM Controls ICM102B - ICM102 Delay on Make Timer (.03-10 Minute Adjustable Delay)

ICM Controls ICM102B - ICM102 Delay on Make Timer (.03-10 Minute Adjustable Delay) - Mode of Operation - When power is applied to the input, the time delay begins. After the time delay is complete, the load energizes.<br><br> Delay on Make Timers are ideal for compressor staging and stagger...

www.supplyhouse.com

Ok, I see, that’s a great idea using a delay.....certainly fixes the problem
So that’s how you guys get around the “cold start” refill problem.

 

[Philly Reefer]

Logically speaking, when water leaves the “system” it should leave from the whole system, the DT, and each chamber of a sump. Currently testing that thinking, ATO turned off and DT, Sump Chambers, all marked with tape. Let’s see what effect evaporation of 24 hours makes to each component.

Your guess is absolutely correct.
Takes about 3-4 minutes to stabilize, and during that time, ATO is filling.
The restart flux problem appears to have no effect in the first and second chamber levels, when refilling after restart, the first two chambers go down, but never below the ATO sensor, that’s why I moved it.

Yes you are logically correct that the water evaporated on the whole system. But you can try this now actually.

Turned off your ATO,
Take a cup of water out of your DT(evaporation), then watch your sump. The only water level change should be the return chamber only.
Then you can pour it back on your DT and the water levels should normalize